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On The Topic of Rebalancing Premium Ships

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Finally I am going to write about this topic. I was going to write this on NA but due to me not having any battles there, I can't write it at the appropriate forum subheading, so I'll have to do it here.

 

I, to put it quite bluntly, am disappointed in the community for forcing WG to turn back and cancel their rebalancing of premium ships with Guilio Cesare's controvesial rebalancing a while back. It convinced me that some people, especially some from that server, are entitled, self-interested bunch of customers who will rage, whine and break his head on the wall whenever he feels slighted like that.

When I say that I don't like the idea that the "customer is always right", things like this is why. I knew Blizzard was right when they said "you think you do, but you really don't" or something of similar effect. Because really, we think we do, but do we?

 

When people say that WG has to live with the consequences of balancing premium ships badly during the supertesting phase, it's not really true. We are the ones who do. I mean, there were people asking that Belfast be disallowed from the upcoming T7 Ranked Sprint because she's such an annoyance to deal with. I don't know about you, but I'm sure WG and their balancing department are laughing their heads off and saying "Should've listened to us!" when they read that thread. And now we have a thread where they asked Kutuzov be removed from the upcoming T8 CB. In my eyes, this is the playerbase reaping the consequences of their own unwillingness to have their precious premiums rebalanced because "muh customer rights". As long as they stubbornly hold on to that stance, I don't see the situation changing.

 

Also, we do not know how many new players in their brand-spanking-new T4/T5 ships jump into a battle, get themselves (and their team) crushed by a Guilio Cesare/Imperator Nikolai I/Kamikaze/Gremyaschy/whatever "rare" premium, conclude that the game is a P2W mess that victimizes new players and then leave in disgust. It may be an exxageration, but chances are if we can say it, it's not- someone, somewhere, sometime has done this. It's not good. I'm not saying that there are other reasons that a player might leave or stop paying, but why can't we give them one less reason to leave, by allowing our precious premiums to be rebalanced?

 

Some people argue that it is in violation of customer laws. I'd argue this is not the case, because while they're rebalancing no one's trying to take away that Guilio Cesare you had. You'll still own it when (if) rebalancing is complete. To me it doesn't matter whether the Guilio Cesare is the pseudo-overpowered T5 we have right now or the proposed T6 they wanted to implement, it's still a bloody Guilio Cesare, and it's still yours. Stop being so petty about your ship.

It's also amusing when people cite the timing, saying it came a little too soon after the Christmas crate sales. Bruh, you (okay, maybe not all of them, but some people do) bought a ship thought to be OP, why didn't you see the nerf coming a mile away? If you got on the forums, you have plenty of warning that there's ominous precedents that GC isn't balanced, yet you still got it. And now you're mad that WG is trying to take away that OPness? Seriously.

I know we all love throwing shade at WG for the supposedly bad health of the game, but we really don't realize how un-innocent we are in that regard either. Not with how petty we can get with these premium ship rebalancing.

 

Downvote/boring-vote me all you like. Someday vindication will arrive and we will see about that.

 

Sorry if this came off as a madman's ramble, but I needed to rant on this subject, and now I hope I can sleep much easier with these thoughts off my back.

 

 

P.S The thread I mentioned about no Kutuzov for T8 CW:
https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/194216-can-we-say-no-to-kutuzov-next-cw-please/

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I won't delve deep into this cause I can see this will hit a nerve for a lot of people but I will put my 2 cents forward.

Yes, I understand your point of view. I also understand the spirit behind it and believe me, I don't see you as a madman. But, I do not agree with your opinion on letting WG touch premiums. Before you cock your gun, know this that I own both Ishizuchi and a Mutsu. Those ships are pitiful redefined as they fare ridiculously both in PVP and PVE as their damage output is complete RNGfest. I have been dreaming for a rebalance to both of them for ages now. The only reason I never utter a word about it is because I do not trust WG's wisdom when it comes to balance. They are notorious for ignoring power creep just so they can push certain ships on to the player base and time and again they ignored super testers input on various new ships just to scale them back months later. In simple words, once WG touches a ship, you are stuck with it for who knows how long and a lot of people just don't want their money turned to dust in the name of balance. I even have a Kaga and I suffer badly in tier Xs and seal club in tier VIs. I wish I could get a balance so I can actually be somewhere in the middle but I am damn afraid to even touch the subject in case WG pulls the same crap they did with the Graff Zeplin.

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10 minutes ago, LonerPrime said:

I won't delve deep into this cause I can see this will hit a nerve for a lot of people but I will put my 2 cents forward.

Yes, I understand your point of view. I also understand the spirit behind it and believe me, I don't see you as a madman. But, I do not agree with your opinion on letting WG touch premiums. Before you cock your gun, know this that I own both Ishizuchi and a Mutsu.

Those ships are pitiful redefined as they fare ridiculously both in PVP and PVE as their damage output is complete RNGfest. I have been dreaming for a rebalance to both of them for ages now. The only reason I never utter a word about it is because I do not trust WG's wisdom when it comes to balance. They are notorious for ignoring power creep just so they can push certain ships on to the player base and time and again they ignored super testers input on various new ships just to scale them back months later. In simple words, once WG touches a ship, you are stuck with it for who knows how long and a lot of people just don't want their money turned to dust in the name of balance. I even have a Kaga and I suffer badly in tier Xs and seal club in tier VIs. I wish I could get a balance so I can actually be somewhere in the middle but I am damn afraid to even touch the subject in case WG pulls the same crap they did with the Graff Zeplin.

Oh, I am well aware of their track record in that regard. Trust me, I had Sims and Kii for long before 0.8.0 (when they finally got buffed) and I nary said a word about them.

From what I've gathered, your disagreement is based on WG's poor track record of balancing ships, and not because of customer rights or any other reason? OK, that's understandable.

I'm not ranting about how WG rebalances its premium ships, I know of their notoriously touchy extreme-ends balance (though admittedly I do not have as much of a problem with that, given my relatively green experience levels in WOWS). I'm ranting on people who are against the idea of premium ships being rebalanced at all. It just doesn't sit well with me.

EDIT: I also own both those ships. Ishizuchi I didn't play much because you can't complete missions with it. Mutsu, I kind of liked it, but I am aware of it's glass-cannon nature and it's notoriously poor performance when uptiered.

Edited by TD1

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My take on the matter , it does not matter its tech tree ship or Premium, its a game, then fairness need be baked in and that mean for any tier, any type of ships and any class of ships, and ships a player should be playing that player should be allowed the same chance to excel and perform, and not be handicapped by certain in-bake handicap ( which is plenty right now ) and any ship should be re-balanced if its found to be  processing extra in-bake advantage over other same tier / same class / same type of ships ( which also are plenty unfortunately )

Is GC  prime for a re balancing, I am not sure, I do not had the ship and do not had first hand experience to tell ; what I do know is part of the blame had to be levied towards WG for allowing many of these in-bake hadicap and advantage to remain / exist / play out in game

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I have no problem with re-balancing premium. as long as cash refund is offered.

Otherwise it is a case of Bait and Switch.

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The issue is that you cannot downgrade a ship you paid money for because of consumer laws. You directly paid for that "service/good" as what it was advertised for. If you do downgrade it, you need to offer a refund. That is why the balancing needs to be gotten right the first time round.

You can't do it just for one ship because it becomes the testcase and opens the doors to future "changes".

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While I support the concept of rebalancing premium ships for the health of the game, And to allow them to be sold again, the fact is I don’t trust WG to do it right.

The problem is that on every issue there are multiple factions in the playerbase. At any point in time, WG may listen to the loudest, or just do their own thing, and we get knee jerk nerfs and balance changes that do not address the key issues. 

For the record, I don’t mind minor balance changes to these ships, concealment, RoF, consumable time, Fire chance etc... The sort of stuff that does not really affect how, where and when I play a ship. Changes which just make it a little less effective in a chosen role.

For big balance changes like removing consumables, or changing tier. That I get worried about. These changes affect how you play a ship, and when and where you play a ship.

As someone who plays a lot of scenarios, I would be mortified if Belfast was uptiered to T8, unable to play the T7 scenario(s hopefully eventually). Yes, they would probably offer a refund, but I LIKE the Belfast as a ship, I want to be able to play her at that level. Though I may eventually be able to play her in Cherry Blossom.

Of course, with changing tiers, you must also consider how different the play at different tiers can be. T8 cruisers are usually painful to use at T8, because of the matchmaking.

Regarding the consumables, these directly affect the way the ship is played, how you use here. For example, removing Belfast’s radar (keeping her at T7), would require a major change in playstyle.

 So while I support the idea that premium ships should not be immune to individual ship balance changes, question we have to ask, is can WG be trusted? Can they try to make the minor balance changes before the big hatchet style ones like tier change and consumable removal. Changes which make a ship just that little bit less effective, rather than requiring a massive style change in gameplay. Of is that style the reason why players find the ships so OP in the first place?

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6 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

the fact is I don’t trust WG to do it right

:Smile_veryhappy:

 

Even when they decide to buff/nerf something where it should be nerfed/buffed, they mess up the numbers (Yueyang reload nerfs). Most of the times they nerf/buff where the ships shouldn't be nerfed/buffed.

Edited by Paladinum

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I would say it boils down to two problems.

The first problem is expectations. Personally I have zero problems with overpowered Premiums getting nerfed. Because I understand this is a game and in a game, balance comes first. So when I buy a Premium ship, I buy it with the full expectation that the ship will be nerfed if found to be OP. Likewise, I have full expectations that an underperforming Premium will be buffed, at least eventually.

Now the problem is, people do not expect overpowered ships to be nerfed. Heck, a lot of players buy a ship that is said to be overpowered precisely because it is overpowered. All I can say is, don't buy a Premium ship if you are unwilling to stomach the risk of seeing it nerfed. As for those who buy ships precisely because they are overpowered, well bollocks to you. It is your own darn problem if you are tempted by power. Exercise some self control next time.

The second problem is pricing. I think we can all agree that costs of Premium ships are pretty ridiculous, with some high tier Premiums costing as much as AAA game. And herein lies the problem. Nobody wants to spend their see the ship they spent with their big, hard-earned cash get nerfed. If premium ships cost a dollar or something, nobody would care if it got nerfed. It is just a dollar. But if a ship that cost the equivalent of a person's weekly salary or something got nerfed, then that is quite a big deal.

With that being said, it should not be a big deal if you had the proper expectations in the first place.

8 hours ago, TD1 said:

I, to put it quite bluntly, am disappointed in the community for forcing WG to turn back and cancel their rebalancing of premium ships with Guilio Cesare's controvesial rebalancing a while back. It convinced me that some people, especially some from that server, are entitled, self-interested bunch of customers who will rage, whine and break his head on the wall whenever he feels slighted like that. 

Same here. I lost a lot of respect for the general WoWs community after that. It really showed that the community doesn't really give a hoot about balance and just want to benefit themselves.

8 hours ago, TD1 said:

Some people argue that it is in violation of customer laws.

I am going to be blunt and address the elephant in the room here: nobody in the community actually cares about consumer rights. Consumer rights is just a cover - in reality they only care about themselves and just don't want their OP ships to be nerfed.

How do I know? Because nobody kicked up a fuss when CVs were changed from RTS to action gameplay. Nobody in the WoWs community except RTS CV players cared that the RTS premium CVs people bought got replaced with something completely different. But the moment WG decided to touch their precious seal-clubber Guilio Cesare? Wow.

Edit:

Oh and before some people come at me with their pitchforks, I am just going to state that I am a bit of a whale myself. I am not proud of it, but I have spent at least a few hundred bucks on WoWs and have bought many Premiums of all ship classes across multiple nations. So if a person like me is okay with overpowered Premiums being nerfed, then I don't see what is the issue.

Edited by Thyaliad
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whinge whinge.  Wargaming thrive on the fact that people pay top dollar to possess these so called OP ships.  If you are whining about balance you dont own the ships.  You therefore are only worried about yourself and using balance as a cover.  Get your wallet out at xmas time and get yourself a couple, it will make you feel better. 

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2 hours ago, tsuenwan said:

I have no problem with re-balancing premium. as long as cash refund is offered.

Otherwise it is a case of Bait and Switch.

+1

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1 hour ago, Paladinum said:

:Smile_veryhappy:

 

Even when they decide to buff/nerf something where it should be nerfed/buffed, they mess up the numbers (Yueyang reload nerfs). Most of the times they nerf/buff where the ships shouldn't be nerfed/buffed.

Most of the time, they either listen to the loudest group and balance something too much which didn't really need it and annoys another group.

And the other half, they ignore what the playaerbase says and nerf something that didn't need nerfing and doesn't really make a difference.

Conqueror. Ridiculously high accuracy at max range and fire chance.

Nerf concealment.... Like that really matters to a ship that spends most it s time near the back of the map!.

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WG has gone for a better direction when it comes about releasing new ships whether they are premium or not. I mean the ships will have to pass several testing phases before they are released on the live servers. Yeah I know one of them is still flooding the forum today, but that's another topic.

 

I'm aware that some of these premiums are tier-breaking. However I don't think rebalancing them could be a win-win solution for both WG and the consumers.  Let's say if Giulio Cesare were ever rebalanced, this could be the first domino that breaks the established lines. I believe the next ones to fall could have been:

- Belfast (radar +smoke + HE + concealment mod)

- Atlanta (we know who brought this into the nerf list)

- Scharnhorst (the most flexible "BB" in the game/better Gneisenau)

- Kamikaze (torp-spamming Minekaze)

- Harekaze (Kagero with better guns)

I did not put Imperator Nikolai in the list because it's Russian.

 

And keep in mind some non-premiums are also tier-breaking, so I don't think WG will resort to this move because this can be considered a fraud. 

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2 hours ago, Ziptie55 said:

whinge whinge.  Wargaming thrive on the fact that people pay top dollar to possess these so called OP ships.  If you are whining about balance you dont own the ships.  You therefore are only worried about yourself and using balance as a cover.  Get your wallet out at xmas time and get yourself a couple, it will make you feel better. 

Yeah. Right. I do own one of these ships myself you know (the Cesare). Your attempt at comedy fails to amuse me.

 

Also @tsuenwan refunds: I'll still take the doubloons because I could always use more of those. I'm not sure cash refunds are worth the hassles you have to go through. I could be wrong though.

Edited by TD1
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2 hours ago, Ziptie55 said:

whinge whinge.  Wargaming thrive on the fact that people pay top dollar to possess these so called OP ships.  If you are whining about balance you dont own the ships.  You therefore are only worried about yourself and using balance as a cover.  Get your wallet out at xmas time and get yourself a couple, it will make you feel better.  

You're right, everything will be solved if we all own these ships.

Where can I buy Belfast, Mikhail Kutuzov, Giulio Cesare, Imperator Nikolai I & Kamikaze?

Edited by Grygus_Triss
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2 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

You're right, everything will be solved if we all own these ships.

Where can I buy Belfast, Mikhail Kutuzov, Giulio Cesare & Kamikaze?

gamble on xmas crate is the only way to get them

Spoiler

just a joke, dont spend on weegee

 

Edited by Gummilicious

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8 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

You're right, everything will be solved if we all own these ships.

Even some tech tree ships deserve nerfing...

LIKE THE ENTIRE RN BB LINE! STOP MESSING WITH THE SURVIVABILITY AND START NERFING THE FIREPOWER !!!

I PLAYED KGV AND THE RELOAD AND CHANCE OF CAUSING FIRE IS ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING !!!

Dude of Yokes is fairly balanced though. BECAUSE SHE IS MUCH LESS POWERFUL THAN KGV !!!

Edited by Paladinum

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A premium ship should be better than its nominal teir otherwise premium term is meaningless.   

 

The question is how much higher should a premium be, generally premiums appear to be one teir lower than equivalent tech tree vessels, eg  Musashi vs Yamoto, or Belfast vs Edinburgh.   

In my view if a person spends cash or time to earn those premiums they have earned a tactical advantage.  

A ship is only truly overpowered if there is no defensive counter to it in game.  Even Belfast, I don't know how often I've earned citadels by firing at Belfast smoke, has its vulnerabilities.   Kamikaze R just get close, keep changing course and keep it spotted.

 

An OP ship is a challenge and an opportunity to create new tactcs to defeat it.

 

For the record, two purchased premiums, Perth (aussie), Prinz EF(for steel missions),

Out of supercontainers, coal, mission chains, Befast, Nelson, Scharnhorst, etcetc

 (

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2 hours ago, Grygus_Triss said:

You're right, everything will be solved if we all own these ships.

Where can I buy Belfast, Mikhail Kutuzov, Giulio Cesare, Imperator Nikolai I & Kamikaze?

You can have all of mine.

I have them all, and they never leave port.....

 

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13 hours ago, TD1 said:

 

Sorry if this came off as a madman's ramble, but I needed to rant on this subject, and now I hope I can sleep much easier with these thoughts off my back.

 

 

zzzz first world problems if this is what is keeping you awake at night. I myself am far more worried about important things, like the direct correlation between my receding hairline and expanding belly despite giving up alcohol.

But even then, I don't loose any sleep over those world shattering concerns

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9 minutes ago, LtDan_IceCream said:

You can have all of mine.

I have them all, and they never leave port.....

 

You will now be accused of being elitist and just rubbing it in by those that don't own them...……….

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8 minutes ago, j0e90 said:

zzzz first world problems if this is what is keeping you awake at night. I myself am far more worried about important things, like the direct correlation between my receding hairline and expanding belly despite giving up alcohol

That's just old age

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Just now, RalphTheTheatreCat said:

That's just old age

Really, so nothing to do with a diet of steak n cheese pies and milklshakes? 

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1 minute ago, j0e90 said:

Really, so nothing to do with a diet of steak n cheese pies and milklshakes? 

Isnt that health food?

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4 minutes ago, RalphTheTheatreCat said:

You will now be accused of being elitist and just rubbing it in by those that don't own them...……….

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