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Rina_Pon

Never an easier time to play BB

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I don't play BBs all that often, but recently I've noticed it is far easier to do well in a BB than any other surface ship. Not just a little bit, I mean night and day difference. And I realized there is a simple reason: there's no counter anymore. DDs can be one-shotted, cruisers can be one-shotted, but in a BB, sure, CVs and HE spam and gross stupidity will get you killed eventually, but the one thing that could dev. stike any BB in the game, torp strikes from undetected destroyers, have been pretty much removed from consideration as a result of a) low numbers of enemy DDs, b) prevalence of gunboat/AA DDs and c) the low likelyhood of any DD being able to sneak up on a battleship undetected by aircraft. 

So yes, people like to rant and call the game "broken", but in this case I honestly think it is. The original, fundamental gameplay mechanic of WoWS was that cruisers beat destroyers, battleships beat cruisers, and destroyers beat battleships. As the game currently stands, it is far harder to play a DD or cruiser than it is a battleship. I mean that both in a "not get killed" sense and a "actually impact the game" sense.

Edited by Rina_Pon
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Me with my cruiser-centric fleet: :Smile_unsure:

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I’ve played BBs a lot, and I’ve always found they are the most forgiving class. At least survivability wise.

In general, they can take a beating, heal, and have the range to stay away from most major threats. Where as DDs, CA, and CLs can be one minor mistake away from death, BBs give you multiple chances. I believe this was always the case, even pre 0.8.0, sure, you had more DDs, but these were easily avoidable with a bit of map awareness. CVs were a big risk, but games with them were rare. Nowadays, while still annoying, A BB does not care if it takes a full hit or two from a CV.

I remember seeing an old Jingles vid where he said he didn’t like playing BBs because they were NOT very forgiving. In this case, he was mostly referring to the speed of low tier BBs. Where if you committed to going in a direction of the map, you were basically stuck in that area the entire game, you could not easily react to new information. This is not really a huge problem at higher tiers, with fast battleships and battlecruisers, and the extra armor usually makes up for the lack of speed.

The other area are, of course the guns. BB guns may have poorer accuracy at range and slower reload, but when you do get that devastating strike citadel, you can easily forgive them.

Other classes do have advantages over BBs, but one of the most important thing a ship needs is survivability. And as many of these lighter armoured, shorter range ships, have previously relied on stealth, which no longer exists, their ability to survive and have an effect on the battle has appeared to have taken a nosedive. Speed and manoeuvrability are less effective as well, as Planes are faster and more manoeuvrable.

So, yes, In the current meta, BBs are one of the easiest and most forgiving ships in the game.

And for the health of the game, that should probably change.

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My personal Sinop experience:

35 battles, 33 times death by torpedo planes, 2 times battles no cv.

Despite full AA build and AA stock rating of 57 or so.

RNG also has only permitted her to get over 100k dmg in one battle so far I've noticed too.

A good average game is 80-100k dmg.

The last thing this game needs right now is stealthy DD's with their torp spammage.

Win rate in supposedly "OP" russian bias not quite balanced for general consumption yet BB?.

33%....

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I watched a Wyoming last for ages against a sustained CV focus attack the other day.

Kind of made me want to rebuy and kit up another Wyoming.

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@Rina_Pon you are so right and the easy answer could be in the thread about MM +/- 1.  a T8 DD in with T10 is can you survive past the 5 minute mark.

since the CV meta change, ive gone from playing DD's to playing BB... smashing it in T8 now with 2 masschewtits, 2 Tirpitz and an Alabama!! the Musashi still a work in progress.

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2 hours ago, Max_Battle said:

I watched a Wyoming last for ages against a sustained CV focus attack the other day.

Kind of made me want to rebuy and kit up another Wyoming.

You really should. I only kept two T4 ships, Clemson and Wyoming. Wyoming never fails to entertain. Spins on a dime and more guns than you can shake a stick at.

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My risk-taking, high-adrenaline playstyle would fit BBs the best, but I dislike so many things about BBs. Slow rudder shift, slow reload, slow turret traverse, few consumables available. That's why I play cruisers the most, with few matches in BBs and DDs when I have premium time.

The only few BBs that may "help" with that are BBs with insane reload time, like Scharnhorst, FdG, KGV the Tier 8 and "The Republic".

Edited by Paladinum

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46 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

My risk-taking, high-adrenaline playstyle would fit BBs the best, but I dislike so many things about BBs. Slow rudder shift, slow reload, slow turret traverse, few consumables available. That's why I play cruisers the most, with few matches in BBs and DDs when I have premium time.

The only few BBs that may "help" with that are BBs with insane reload time, like Scharnhorst, FdG, KGV the Tier 8 and "The Republic".

If you ever get the chance, I recommend Scharnhorst. Ridiculous fun, especially in Narai. 

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7 hours ago, Rina_Pon said:

The original, fundamental gameplay mechanic of WoWS was that cruisers beat destroyers, battleships beat cruisers, and destroyers beat battleships.

The game hasn't been like this since closed beta.  DD's also haven't countered BB's in general play for a very long time.  BB's are the easiest class to play, and are very forgiving, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing.  It's nice to have a low stress class like BB to play when you don't want to think that much, and it's good for the game to have a class that is a bit easier for new players to learn in.

6 hours ago, Muds_Revenge said:

35 battles, 33 times death by torpedo planes, 2 times battles no cv. 

I can 100% guarantee you that you're in the wrong position.  This simply does not happen if you position correctly.

I just wrote up a (heavily downvoted on reddit!) comment on how best to play BB's so as to minimise damage taken from CV's.  I'll put it here if anyone is interested:

Firstly, if you're alone, you can slow down the damage through proper AA use and maneuvering, but it's only a matter of time before the CV kills you if they choose to focus you. You can go a long way to winning the game in this situation by making them take as long as possible to kill you though.

Obviously being alone is not a good thing. So firstly, have a friend or two with which you can share AA cover. This will do a couple of things - it will make multiple strikes from the same squadron unlikely, and it will also make you an unattractive target, so the CV may decide you're not worth it at all. A CV is constantly assessing what is the most important target in terms of winning the game, and what is the target they will most easily be able to damage.

Avoiding multiple strikes is key. This is what AA is good for. You won't be able to stop the first attack unless you're stacked with most of the team (don't be stacked with most of the team or you'll lose), but good or stacked AA will make multiple strikes either ineffective or costly or both. As a BB you can make the first strike relatively ineffective, but follow up strikes will be difficult to avoid and this is where the damage will come. So by turning into the attack you can reduce the initial strike damage by a huge amount, however you won't be able to change direction fast enough in a BB to avoid taking the whole second wave if the CV is competent. This is where the AA will save you though, providing you have friends.

Another couple of things to note. AA sectoring helps a lot, but BB's have a very long sector swap time, so you need to change sectors very early. The idea should be that the sectors change right as the planes pass over you. For a BB, that means changing the sectors when the planes are about 5-6km out on their attack run. If you wait till they pass over you, you're completely wasting your time. Also, fighters are extremely effective. How fighters function is that they will kill the same number of planes in the attacking squadron as there are fighters. There are ways for the CV to minimise their effects, but once the fighters have latched on the squadron is pretty much unusable unless you're in a very high speed CV like the GZ. So fighters won't stop the first wave, but they will stop the waves after that. We've already discussed how follow up waves are the really bad ones provided you turn into the first attack. Fighters will often prevent you being attacked entirely just through their presence, or sometimes the CV will drop all waves except the last one into the ocean and just give you a one wave attack.

So just like angling, movement, and map position will minimise damage from enemy main battery hits (but not completely negate damage taken), there are actually lots of things you can do to minimise damage taken from CV's as well. Unfortunately there is little information out there as to how best to do this - I have no idea why the higher profile CC's haven't put out guides to this very thing, as there are lots of very simple things that each class can do to minimise damage taken from CV's, but many people are unaware of what these things are.

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People who say this sort of stuff about BBs seem to be basing it on flawed assumptions caused by playing high tiers exclusively. 

Tier 8 you are likely to have either two equal tier or one +2 tier CV on the enemy team.  Tier 9, either two -1 tier or one +1 tier CV.  Tier 10, either two -2 tier or one equal tier CV.  And yeah, that's perfectly doable if you follow the horrible play style required by the current meta.

But now imagine you are playing tier 5-7 BBs.  Or even betterm tier 5-7 German battleships.  In my Konig I'm nearly always up against two tier 6 CVs.  In the Bayern and Gneisenau, two tier 8 CVs.  A Kaga makes mincemeat of a Bayern with its 4x3 torp drops.  Two of them focusing you at once is just like being insta-deleted by the old multi-squadron RTS CVs.  German BBs at that tier have bad anti-air, bad torpedo protection, catch fire like a One Nation campaign van and need to get close to the enemy to be effective.  Any one of those things means they are a prime target for CVs.  All of them combined?  Yeah, they seek you out at the start of the match and don't stop until you're dead.  Even shooting down 20+ planes in the Gneisenau is no guarantee that the CVs will bugger off and taget someone else, they'll just come back again and again as you are trying to get in a position where you can actually shoot something. 

I might be the only person in the history of this game to be really, really, really looking forward to getting the Freddy.  Guess I picked the wrong time to start playing and trying to grind up.

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9 hours ago, Rina_Pon said:

The original, fundamental gameplay mechanic of WoWS was that cruisers beat destroyers, battleships beat cruisers, and destroyers beat battleships. As the game currently stands, it is far harder to play a DD or cruiser than it is a battleship. I mean that both in a "not get killed" sense and a "actually impact the game" sense. 

Eh, the game has stopped being rock-paper-scissors since a long time ago. And now you have HE spamming cruisers like the Henri burning down BBs slowly but surely at long range, or IFHE gunboat DDs gunning down cruisers. Plus people seem to have forgotten that in the absence of CVs, the only real counter to DDs were either radar cruisers or another DD. Before the CV rework there were plenty of people asking WG to balance the amount of radar on each team and to balance DD MM - because whichever team lost their DDs first usually ended up losing the game.

And BBs have always been the easiest, most forgiving ship in the game. It comes with having the most HP, the most armour, the longest range, the hardest hitting guns and a heal.

1 hour ago, Moggytwo said:

I just wrote up a (heavily downvoted on reddit!) comment on how best to play BB's so as to minimise damage taken from CV's.

Yeah I have seen your Reddit posts and I admire your ... dedication. :Smile_honoring:

Much of Reddit is just an anti-CV circle-jerk/echo-chamber now. Even Sub_Octavian implied as much in a recent Q&A.

Edited by Thyaliad
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As I said, MM seems to spawn my Sinop as far away from any anti air support as possible, and she moves SO SLOW, that when you ARE manuevring to dodge planes which I always am...she slows down to 20 knots, and rudder shift is heavy too.

 

So I can easily spend the first 10 mins of the battle trying to catch up to teammates for some air cover, and even just any support, as they are all on the other side of the map due to "random" spawnings.

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22 minutes ago, Muds_Revenge said:

As I said, MM seems to spawn my Sinop as far away from any anti air support as possible, and she moves SO SLOW, that when you ARE manuevring to dodge planes which I always am...she slows down to 20 knots, and rudder shift is heavy too.

 

So I can easily spend the first 10 mins of the battle trying to catch up to teammates for some air cover, and even just any support, as they are all on the other side of the map due to "random" spawnings.

I’ve experienced similar starting positions in my FDG and Alsace. Unless some of your team start sailing immediately in your direction, it means you should abandon that flank. You need AA support.

I don’t know why MM does that.

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17 hours ago, Grygus_Triss said:

If you ever get the chance, I recommend Scharnhorst. Ridiculous fun, especially in Narai. 

Or the $$$. Honestly I don't feel the urge to throw $$$ into WG's face, after all that they did :Smile_hiding:

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2 hours ago, Paladinum said:

Or the $$$. Honestly I don't feel the urge to throw $$$ into WG's face, after all that they did :Smile_hiding:

My favorite tech tree BBs: Nagato, Kongo, Wyoming, N. Carolina, and Gneisenau.

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