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Drakon233

the paradox of playing CVs

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been seeing a lot of posts about interactions about CVs and surface ships in the past few months so i'd like to add my own 2 cents to the conversation

 

Im pretty sure that in the other post there was already a explanation of "half squad/full squad survival rate" so i wont reiterate here, but the issue is, for a CV to be effective, i.e going after enemies  lonely/has no AA. you generally need to wait around 10 minutes, maybe even more for the other team to split up enough for you to strikes, and most of the time before that if you force drop a blob you will lose half-full squad of planes. in that sense, there are two thought schools on how to CV properly

 

the paradox for CV players is such.

 

do you strike hard at the start of the game and trade your hanger to help your team out trade the enemy  and win the battle, which means if your team fails you will almost be completely unable to salvage the situation being practically deplaned and unable to be able to farm up your damage.

(aka, teamwork is beautiful)

or  

do you conserve your planes at the start of the game, going after unessential targets, making long trips to drop FTs over teammates to waste time  and trust your team to hold out till late game and your will be far far more effective for your damage but risk your team getting out traded and the other team just blobbing and rushing your position

(aka. me and what team)

 

of course, that is being quite general, and most good CV players can juggle between the two(in which case you're screwed anyways) but it sums up essentially how CVs should play. for the people complaining about CVs late game  and how they have what seems like endless squads of planes to send at you, know that it was because they were being the equivalent of the border humping yamato at the 10 line spamming HE and generally being useless, then consider why your team couldnt out damage and out play the enemy while their CV was sitting back being a useless pussy 

 

 

copied from my post in another thread

 

as for how to play against them (CVs)

 

 

for torp drops, you would need to be braindead to eat a strike from a CV unless you were caught horribly out of position, in which case you'e screwed anyways, just stay angled to the TBs and accelerate/decelerate depending on 

for DB drops, check how many drops he has left, if it's only one then pop your smoke, pretend to try to hide in it for 3s after you go dark and charge out  this will usually throw off a drop from a DB squad if they are trying to blind-drop you, if it's a full squad then just wait in the smoke, CV players have 0 patience and will often go find another target after less than 20s so they dont waste their strike potential. the issue with CVs is that their alpha is shit low compared to old CVs and need to stack their damage fast in order to have a big impact in the game. 

for rockets, if you see they are HVARs/IJN/RN/KMS rockets, try to go at a slight angle but mostly parallel to the planes as they came in at 3/4 speed, and as soon as they start the drop increase to full speed and turn in to throw off the aim, if you see that they are tiny tims then just bow in, it's the best chance you got

 

ah right, one very important thing i forgot to mention

 

keep your AA off unless you are certain they can strike you and are on course to strike you, rocket planes will overshoot you if they dont predict your location and the longer they dont drop it's more dmg done to them by teammate's flack, and wasted potential damage for them

Edited by drakon233
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and for those who say that AA blobbing dosnt work, it does.

a single high AA ship with high air spotting distance  like a NC at T6-8 will essentially make a whole area a no fly zone, and that limits both the number of attack runs and direction of attack a CV can strike your blob from. what's worse are practically every CA/CL with decent AA/DFAA, if a CV wants to conserve his planes he will need to waste a lot of time predicting where the unspotted AA ship is, work a couse around the AA and then do the strike, if he even think it's worth it to have a angle of attack that might not yield a good result. doing all of this will waste anywhere up from 1.5-3x the time it would usually take to stike a lone target, even if it has high AA. and time is the biggest limiting factor for CVs when it comes to dealing damage, unlike torps and guns planes squadrons  take around a 30s - 2 minutes to recycle from a strike run. so the more time you make their CVs waste trying to drop the less time he will to break your team over his knees, and the ammount of time in the game isnt always 20m, if it's a steamroll then a CV might only deal 10-50k damage at most due to the time constraints and the need to crack open a AA bubble/flak wall

Edited by drakon233
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why do people read my posts and never reply

 

i cri

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Just now, drakon233 said:

why do people read my posts and never reply

 

i cri

Don't cri, I'm noob CV so don't know what to add :cap_rambo:

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10 minutes ago, drakon233 said:

why do people read my posts and never reply

 

i cri

post your Detonation :Smile_trollface:

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18 minutes ago, drakon233 said:

why do people read my posts and never reply

 

i cri

TLDR REEE
okay jokes aside since you are crying as a old friend i will reply here first 
so don't cri.....
Edit : LET ME Read... give me time..... lots of time

i prefer if a cv does an initial scouting atleast light up enemy battleship position and direction of where they are going, hopefully sacrificing 1-2 planes or best none of your (CV) planes get destroyed...

after that is probably just do your own thing maybe help against scouting enemy DD to deny enemy capping ? something like that then you might be able to do literally anything you want after all enemy DDs are spotted and sunk..

maybe the occasional scouting of enemy position for your team to push but this is pretty hard for  CV players, its hard to juggle around like u said,

hey, idk if you notice how the fighter planes from CA/BB work, idk why this game earlier today
Me : colorado 
my escorts : 3 <- yes 3!!! aoba CA

1 of the aoba launch fighters, i also launched my fighters cuz incoming enemy dive bombers...

what happen next puzzles me
only that aoba's fighter chase enemy bombers that are coming towards me and my fighters just fly pass them and continue circling around me 


 

Edited by ShiraYukira

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I personally think the first ten minutes of game is very crucial, usually determine the outcome of the game.

So my approach is to go in hard as soon as possible. Do some meaningful damage to high tier BB, interrupt their movement and formation. Help my team to gain early positional advantage.

When my plane level became low I will do more support role, look for low hp DD to finish them off, and save some plane for late game if needed.

My approach is not ideal for damage farming, damage was never my goal but neccessary means to win games.

And I really like Admiral Halsy doctrine apply to new CV. "hit hard, hit fast, hit often"

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People think AA blobs or AA doesn't work, because:

1, they use all sector plus DFAA and can not shoot down as many plane as they would expect.

2. they don't play CV. So they didn't know that, even not many plane got shot down but the whole squadron became crippled. They will not be able to follow up attack. That will affect efficiency of plane use.

It is combination of perception and ignorance, I would say.

Usually a competent players in CV as well as surface ship would not say this kind of nonsense.

Edited by sunlo2013
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Could people STOP posting about CVs for a day? STOP commenting in CV threads for a day? When I visit this sub forum, it's CV CV CV CV CV Pobeda OP CV CV CV CV CV.

Stop FFS.

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29 minutes ago, drakon233 said:

why do people read my posts and never reply

 

i cri

No drakon, no cri.

No drakon, no cri.

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Those are on point @drakon233, so there's little to add.

Like i said , many ppl take CV attacks far too personal and whine when it's him and not someone else.

 

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17 minutes ago, ShiraYukira said:

TLDR REEE
okay jokes aside since you are crying as a old friend i will reply here first 
so don't cri.....
Edit : LET ME Read... give me time..... lots of time

i prefer if a cv does an initial scouting atleast light up enemy battleship position and direction of where they are going, hopefully sacrificing 1-2 planes or best none of your (CV) planes get destroyed...

after that is probably just do your own thing maybe help against scouting enemy DD to deny enemy capping ? something like that then you might be able to do literally anything you want after all enemy DDs are spotted and sunk..

maybe the occasional scouting of enemy position for your team to push but this is pretty hard for  CV players, its hard to juggle around like u said,

hey, idk if you notice how the fighter planes from CA/BB work, idk why this game earlier today
Me : colorado 
my escorts : 3 <- yes 3!!! aoba CA

1 of the aoba launch fighters, i also launched my fighters cuz incoming enemy dive bombers...

what happen next puzzles me
only that aoba's fighter chase enemy bombers that are coming towards me and my fighters just fly pass them and continue circling around me 


 

yes, that's why CVs will usually sacrifice a rocket squad (or torp squad) and rush a AA bubble blindly at the start of the match, you will get some decent damage on ships that were slow to move,  spot a large chunk of the enemy team and since it's the start of the match you can afford to somewhat throw a squadron away ( for higher tiers)

 

also, after launch the FT consumable will take a little while to become active for both shipborn/ planeborn consumables, and there are ways that a CV can sneak onto a ship without triggering shipborn FTs on the way in, but rest assured that he he strikes during the time the FT consumable is active, he will lose around half his squad

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8 minutes ago, legionary2099 said:

Those are on point @drakon233, so there's little to add.

Like i said , many ppl take CV attacks far too personal and whine when it's him and not someone else.

 

 

oof, accidental repost. ah well might as add some stuff

the few things i learned from cv unicums

1. always try to identify the most suitable targets and go after them, i.e low HP DD lurking somewhere, a BB or CA that got cocky and went solo, or even CVs if they find themselves out of position

2. always try to finish the job if you can, unless some other urgent target came up or the enemy is unable to be striked at again, dedicate all your strikes to a single target if you are playing to win

3. if you are playing to farm, chain attacks like lineing up TB or DB drops on multiple ships so even if you throw your squadron away you get high quality damage 

4. go after the targets that suit your current ship/loadout the most, like taking HVARS/TITs on USN or IJN-BB/CA versus RN for heavy farming or USN for a all rounder

Edited by drakon233

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double reply LOL
is it me being noob or sector AA
is technically the most useless system ever?

because
the if enemy targets you then on their 2nd attack run on you it usually on the other side..............

im always playing open water , Zao , yamato , shimakaze etc etc 
so i find that focusing 1 side kinda kill myself when the 2nd attack run comes

 

Edited by ShiraYukira

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2 minutes ago, ShiraYukira said:

double reply LOL
is it me being noob or sector AA
is technically the most useless system ever?

because
the if enemy targets you then on their 2nd attack run on you it usually on the other side..............

 

if you have a high AA ship then taking down a extra plane might mean the CV wont get his 2nd or 3rd drop off, and if you want to be really cheeky and have a ship with long ranged AA, you can always be cheeky and let him strike you on the way in and have him lose all his planes on the way out, while some planes do have a short immunity time after they strike, it's far harder to dodge outgoing flak than incoming flak. so as long as you are ok with getting striked once hard you can  trade it for squadwipeing him on his way out or for the 2nd run

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As long as aa atrition rate was unequal to cv regen rate (and tricks). It would pose imbalance.

AA mount is the only counterplay for aircraft, you can slap sector skill, upgrades and anything. But it your aa mount is 5/60. It wont shoot anything.

And those aa mount not only can be lost by bombs and rocket but also other surface ship HE. And its perishable resources.

The first he shell hit your ship, is the first scale of balance being tilted to cv favor. Unless the aa mount is more survivable or able to repair itself it would not solved.

Oh.... what  a strong  AA blob NC posses, blap 6 conqueror shell land and its reduced by half. 2 min into the match some random he spammer can reduce aa efficiency from 22km away.

Ship anti aircraft capability were reduced even when they fighting surface to surface. Thats why it always feel so weak, especialy since the ship that attract fire would also attract air raid. And it always draw ire, since air raid would make it much harder for them to escapecthe predicent they are in

 

And Also cv cant detonate, thats so unfair hehe

Edited by humusz

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i think im just going to make this a CV Q&A post, if anyone wants to know about how CVs play or how to counter them effectively (there are ways) then just toss them at me

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2 minutes ago, drakon233 said:

i think im just going to make this a CV Q&A post, if anyone wants to know about how CVs play or how to counter them effectively (there are ways) then just toss them at me

does slinghshot still work or just people saving their planes? 

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I always go ham from the very beginning. Hak has the pleasure of having super stealthy torp bombers, so finding a window of opportunity is never that difficult as they will never see you comin 😉

Also, there is always somebody somewhere who can be dropped. This is the beauty of the rework...you are always doing something and being useful

Edited by _TAMAL_

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1 hour ago, drakon233 said:

and for those who say that AA blobbing dosnt work, it does.

except when it doesnt, like when a T10 cv wants your blood and sacrifices his planes to drop you anyway.

Seen it, received it in wooster and DM.

As humusz says, once your AA has taken a beating you arent nearly is safe as you think you are, even in the "bubble".

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Just now, humusz said:

As long as aa atrition rate was unequal to cv regen rate (and tricks). It would pose imbalance.

AA mount is the only counterplay for aircraft, you can slap sector skill, upgrades and anything. But it your aa mount is 5/60. It wont shoot anything.

And those aa mount not only can be lost by bombs and rocket but also other surface ship HE. And its perishable resources.

The first he shell hit your ship, is the first scale of balance being tilted to cv favor. Unless the aa mount is more survivable or able to repair itself it would not solved.

Oh.... what  a strong  AA blob NC posses, blap 6 conqueror shell land and its reduced by half. 2 min into the match some random he spammer can reduce aa efficiency from 22km away.

Ship anti aircraft capability were reduced even when they fighting surface to surface. Thats why it always feel so weak, especialy since the ship that attract fire would also attract air raid. And it always draw ire, since air raid would make it much harder for them to escapecthe predicent they are in

with the recent buff to AA survival it is really damn hard to kill AA now, imagine landing 5 USN DBs on a iowa and only knocking out 3 mounts, while the rest of your planes get wiped

do remember that conquerors arnt in all games, and even when they are, most damage that BBs take are from AP shells from other BBs so thats less of a issue. with CA... let be honest, even in the old patch by the time that your AA mounts are wiped by turrets, planes should be the last concern on your mind

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8 minutes ago, dieselhead said:

except when it doesnt, like when a T10 cv wants your blood and sacrifices his planes to drop you anyway.

Seen it, received it in wooster and DM.

As humusz says, once your AA has taken a beating you arent nearly is safe as you think you are, even in the "bubble".

and at what cost? a whole squad wiped for a single drop?

it would take him more than 10m to regenerate the planes, you think that your AA cluster does nothing while in reality it hampers the ability of the CV to mover his planes around the map, plan strikes and burns a stupid amount of time.

if he tosses a few strikes at you to take you to remove that disadvantage for him.  then his ability to recycle squad is hampered by a very significant margin, for the entire game, that's even more significant that back in the RTS CV era where you can easily squad wipe a squad of hak/midway planes since they can launch another package asap without worrying about recycle time till his hanger is almost depleted 

Edited by drakon233

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44 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

Could people STOP posting about CVs for a day? STOP commenting in CV threads for a day? When I visit this sub forum, it's CV CV CV CV CV Pobeda OP CV CV CV CV CV.

Stop FFS.

So why are you here? Looking for fun? Play DD instead.

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1 minute ago, drakon233 said:

with the recent buff to AA survival it is really damn hard to kill AA now, imagine landing 5 USN DBs on a iowa and only knocking out 3 mounts, while the rest of your planes get wiped

do remember that conquerors arnt in all games, and even when they are, most damage that BBs take are from AP shells from other BBs so thats less of a issue. with CA... let be honest, even in the old patch by the time that your AA mounts are wiped by turrets, planes should be the last concern on your mind

Thats only taking CV divebomber vs AA mount into account, the problem was AA mount also can be destroyed from potentialy 10 other surface ship. that imbalance in matchup is one of main reason imo that AA feel weak after you ship took some hit. AA losses simply incomparable to CV losses. and it will acumulate as the game progress, by the time the late game, sure CV can only throw 4 planes and do just 1 strike, but Surface ship dont even have enough AA to pose significant threat of lossing squadron, and CV can cycle 3 type of squadron at will even with minimum plane number. this was the main cause of CV can strike with impunity feeling broaded over surface ships

and even if there is no conqueror in game, most cruiser is HE spamer. and since CV rework the cruiser population were naturaly growing.

 

the only solution might come from regenerating AA mount or to make AA mount more survivable from opponent surface ship. most player rarely check their secondary/AA condition during battle, if they check, they might aware why they feel hopeless vs air raid. as game progress, the blob brake down, AA mount become less and less, and naturaly the ship become more spread out and lesser in number - while CV more or less still constant through entire games

 

 

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6 minutes ago, drakon233 said:

and at what cost? a whole squad wiped for a single drop?

it would take him more than 10m to regenerate the planes, you think that your AA cluster does nothing while in reality it hampers the ability of the CV to mover his planes around the map, plan strikes and burns a stupid amount of time.

if he tosses a few strikes at you to take you to remove that disadvantage for him.  then his ability to recycle squad is hampered by a very significant margin, for the entire game, that's even more significant that back in the RTS CV era where you can easily squad wipe a squad of hak/midway planes since they can launch another package asap without worrying about recycle time till his hanger is almost depleted 

tbh im not sure how many planes he lost doing it as it was mid to late game on both occasions.

All I know is that he dropped me through dfaa in a wooster and a DM on seperated games with other ships close by (within 5km) more than once.

3 minutes ago, Navy_Sensou said:

So why are you here? Looking for fun? Play DD instead.

Fun and DD dont really go together like they used to haha

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