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Mechfori

Aegis, some observation

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OK so the current operation is Aegis, not a particularly difficult one and all ship type can benefit from some EXP farming ; but really I was playing in my DD, CL, CA and BB and I must say the operation pretty much brings out the worst of players ( and scarcely also the  best ) & team play, and certainly some of the worst in WOWS rewarding system ...

Often I was left alone in my CL / CA at the last stage of the game escorting the convoy home , and that typically mean tanking for them and placing yourself in the harms way right between the lowly transport and the Enemy fleet that come out of the NE corner and of course the Fuso ... when almost the whole team ( or what's left ) just all rush to farm the 2 BB kill at the other corner, often its 3 or 4 of them and sometime more ... manage it and help the main task as well as that secondary task( protect all transport ) and not to mention that odd addition of fire to kill that Fuso , but guess what .. pretty dismal return of any ,

As far as players goes, I am seeing a lot of them just keep placing themselves in position to farm those late kill and  practically not doing any in the early and mid game stages. I was often seen with only the 2 bot and might be another lone member of the team who would go about killing those 5 cruisers escorting the captured convey when all the others just sit way out or running NW so they can farm that late game kill ; so many time a lost is result of this stage simply taking too long when you are the lone ship actually doing it when everybody else rush somewhere else not caring, and then its a very long journey to the exit, long enough that a single or a duet of ships simply cannot tank it all

l do think this operation is a bit on the too easy side and simply let out this kind of play ; even for T6 ... it might be an operation that the game can put to T5 ships with some adjustment to ship type launched enemy side

Edited by Mechfori

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Often times you will see an over confident BB that tries to solo the second attack from the north and being ended up focused and melted down by AI ships. Also, cruisers firing HE at broadsiding AI cruisers (even the AI is smarter, they change ammo type). Also people who cower inside the Mahan's smoke and getting torped by two AI DDs. :Smile_facepalm:

Edited by VodkaMolotov

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The most unforgiving thing about this operation is when the MM decided to put you (BB) in a team full of cruisers, DD, and a CV.

When your teammates can cover behind smoke, you can't and thus leaving you the only ship for enemies to land their intimidating rain of HE shells. And not to mention that this OP is full of IJN cruisers that has a HE shells with good alpha strike and good fire chance. and they are swarming in every wave attack.

The only way to prevent you from being burned to death is to sail far away and snipe. But even so, some bots will still fire at you and not your friendly cruisers.

The AI in OPs is quite questionable.

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44 minutes ago, mr_glitchy_R said:

The most unforgiving thing about this operation is when the MM decided to put you (BB) in a team full of cruisers, DD, and a CV.

When your teammates can cover behind smoke, you can't and thus leaving you the only ship for enemies to land their intimidating rain of HE shells. And not to mention that this OP is full of IJN cruisers that has a HE shells with good alpha strike and good fire chance. and they are swarming in every wave attack.

The only way to prevent you from being burned to death is to sail far away and snipe. But even so, some bots will still fire at you and not your friendly cruisers.

The AI in OPs is quite questionable.

Yeah, its different from early days. In recent days the ships seem to focus fire you a LOT.

Its not uncommon for me to lose most of my HP after the first two waves, when in a BB. But I tend to sail with the cruisers, rather than hang back. Second wave can be very annoying, especially when half your team has rounded the island and cant shoot them.

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22 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

But I tend to sail with the cruisers, rather than hang back.

But in so many cases, I found myself being the main target of enemies and not my friendly cruisers although I stick close to them. I also pretend not to fire earlier. Because when I do that, bots won't change their target unless I stop firing or die. I was in my Fuso and my friendly Bayern provide me with fire support. He charged forward, but  I was still the primary target of the majority of the enemies. Isn't that just plain unfair?

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Yeah the bots are very good at focus firing. And with the sheer amount of fire the bots can put out it is not unusual to see a BB dying from the first 2-3 waves.

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20 minutes ago, mr_glitchy_R said:

But in so many cases, I found myself being the main target of enemies and not my friendly cruisers although I stick close to them. I also pretend not to fire earlier. Because when I do that, bots won't change their target unless I stop firing or die. I was in my Fuso and my friendly Bayern provide me with fire support. He charged forward, but  I was still the primary target of the majority of the enemies. Isn't that just plain unfair?

Yes.

I have felt, that since 0.8.0, (Though it may have been earlier) that bots have a tendency to focus fire all on a specific ship, and not stop until that ship is dead. Regardless of if it’s the best target to go after or not.

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6 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

Yeah the bots are very good at focus firing. And with the sheer amount of fire the bots can put out it is not unusual to see a BB dying from the first 2-3 waves.

And unfortunately, BBs HAVE to take that fire (in most cases), because not taking it means that your cruisers will die. The only way to survive is to have your team focus the ships down ASAP. And that’s kinda hard in the second wave, as many ships are starting to go around the island.

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indeed, too many time being a BB in Op just mean taking loads of incoming for the team ; if there are 2 or 3 BB in the Op one ca try to pair up or split the load , but if one end up being the only BB , ten it do require a bit of positioning , and trying to stay far .. and on this Op, its often than not better to hold back, mid to long range fore and keep enough HP so in late game, can Tank it for the convoy  

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I can put the binary WG use for this op is this :

First, focus down the low health ships. Depend on the way we got spawn and focus and how much dmg you take when the first wave hit. The second wave from the North always got bias toward MM but never spawn DD that side so not worry about smoke but need to worry about HE rain. This wave will always focus down ships that got dmg and  rain that potent HE on them. 

Second is they will knock out any aggressive with Torps if somehow you separate from the fleets so bots not really fan of player's like pushing. RIP anyone which got separate...……………………..

so to said the least, bots is very smart and they very good to indicated which target should shoot first because they don't have the eager to shoot things rushing them full HP.

( but then again I really don't like this OP so to take about it …………………………….so meh for me )

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Third, never ever use French/ British BB they are too prone against HE shells.Just go play with Japanese or German BB. American BB is also a good option.

Edited by mr_glitchy_R

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3 hours ago, mr_glitchy_R said:

Third, never ever use French/ British BB they are too prone against HE shells.Just go play with Japanese or German BB. American BB is also a good option.

I once used Normandy in Aegis. The focus firing was nightmarish.

Edited by Paladinum

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Objectively speaking, I think Aegis does have a few issues.

The bots do tend to obsessively focus fire and the spawning of enemy ships is a bit odd and inconsistent. Sometimes you get a mass of destroyers in the first wave. Earlier I got 5 Ishizuchis. Getting more balanced enemy spawns would probably be healthier. Sometimes the Shchors kills himself at 16 minutes after sailing very far from the pack and little can be done in randoms to ensure you can rescue Commander Akulov (who surprisingly hasn't been demoted yet for general incompetence)

However, that doesn't mean Aegis is hard. It's pretty easy to get bots to change targets if you're in the right position, like by looping southwest and then turning north to flank the second wave, or if you go through the mountains generally just running wide and slowing down suffices. And it's one of the easiest operations to flank and predict spawns in. 

Unfortunately the playerbase constantly proves it can do neither the memory work nor the critical thinking to secure 150k+ in Aegis every game. I've also seen everything go down from carriers sailing into the enemy, teams with 5 AFKs or a division of two Warspites and a Dunkerque losing to the first wave. The majority of games however somehow turn out a 4 star or 5 star result (the former being usually caused by people not working out how to kill all 3 BBs, something also objectively easy for just two people to do). And I doubt that will ever change.

Newport is another operation I notice people go overly passive in, and fail to stop the third wave often. On Narai countless times I've seen people overextend or get torped, including a Shchors that lost to the single Nicholas protecting the auxiliaries. You know what the common factor is :fish_palm:

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I was playing Aegis yesterday and someone in a BB had gone far south, he was quite a bit further south from the transports.

Someone map flashed him and then flashed the fleet in the unspoken indication that means, "hey you, get there".

Someone else said, "why you tell someone how to play their own game?"

To which there was a long pause and then someone said simply, "it is team".

This sums up one of the greatest player attitudinal problems in World of Warships.

It's not specific to Aegis or operations or indeed any mode of game play.

As it turned out, I had just killed or torpedo wounded the 2 north spawn BBs and others had killed or were in the process of killing the Fuso so we were in good shape and 5 stars were had.

BUT if others hadn't done their job or been quite as good, the poor positioning of the southern BB may very well have been an issue.

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16 hours ago, mr_glitchy_R said:

Third, never ever use French/ British BB they are too prone against HE shells.Just go play with Japanese or German BB. American BB is also a good option.

I’ve been using Dunkerque, Warspite and Prinz Eitel Friedrich regularly in Aegis in the past week.

Don’t judge me, they’re the only T6 premiums I have which I can use to grind higher tier BB captains for ships I am currently grinding.

I can usually survive the first 2 waves with 20% of my HP and 3 charges of DRP left. Depends how good I am at dodging torpedos, and if I round the island before the second wave comes.

I still do reasonable well in Dunkerque and Warspite. Warspite has awesome guns which are very easy to land citadels for huge damage. Dunkerque guns work quite well against the broadsiding ships too, especially at the closer range’s you get in Aegis. Think I got 20 cits in one battle. And I run the special French commander with improved AR, so reload improves with lower HP.

While it’s less useful with HE spammers, bow tanking in Dunk is nice too, makes it easier to avoid torps, and minimise profile. If you survive the first 3 waves and go after the 2 North BBs, that bow is really great, as even on 10% HP you can tank the two North BBs. And given they love to broadside, do monstrous damage to them.

Then there’s PEF... Only using her to finish grinding my 18pt GK captain. Full secondary spec. Little ability to tank, burns easily, guns horrible, bad armor. I can maker her work, but she is far from optimal, especially if you’re the BB who has to tank for the convoy, rather than going after the north two BBs.

Warspite And Dunkerque at least have the saving grace of good guns.

Edited by Grygus_Triss

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4 hours ago, Max_Battle said:

This sums up one of the greatest player attitudinal problems in World of Warships.

I wonder why people keep complaining about CVs (and certain ships in that matter) when it's the players that make the game so frustrating to play.

  • Cool 3

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9 hours ago, Paladinum said:

I wonder why people keep complaining about CVs (and certain ships in that matter) when it's the players that make the game so frustrating to play.

Ok that's 2 totally different matter but they are factual both at current state of affairs ... I shall not discuss CV here as there's no CV in this Op but as far as team play goes .. yes this is a display of many a player's mentality to get the most while letting others ( or even demanding ) others to go do the tough dirty job that do not pay ... On this Op the last leg of it all is to escort the transport to the exit zone and trying to protect all of them ( secondary task ) and mostly its done by placing yourself between that swamp of ships from the NE corner ( an the Fuso ) and the convoy making yourself a very apparent target , basically doing a fire bait duty .. guess what .. you do not individually got the reward for that ... not for actually providing the protection to the convoy, not for delivering them all alive ( a secondary task ) not for protecting them to final exit ( main task ) all these are team goal and team rewarded , not for the guy who had to do all the hard job and while at the same time need to keep dodging all the incoming so to stay alive and of course forget about dealing much damage at the same time .. when most of the team doing the BB{s) enjoy relative safety and farm damage and kills ...

Yes its true that players had exhibit selfishness and not particularly team play but let's not excuse the game for what it is , a game mechanism that practically do not reward and in fact negatively reward those who do , players are discouraged to do these support, defensive, and misc vital role as its endangering the oneself mighty while giving little to no return when those whose out farming damage, benefit ... its not just Op .. such happen in all games and all game mode AFAIK ... and in many cases it had driven many a player simply to quit doing those duties no matter what ( even at the cost of losing the game ) and can we really simply point that to players not team playing ... well part of that only ... really

Edited by Mechfori

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4 hours ago, Mechfori said:

Ok that's 2 totally different matter but they are factual both at current state of affairs ... I shall not discuss CV here as there's no CV in this Op but as far as team play goes .. yes this is a display of many a player's mentality to get the most while letting others ( or even demanding ) others to go do the tough dirty job that do not pay ... On this Op the last leg of it all is to escort the transport to the exit zone and trying to protect all of them ( secondary task ) and mostly its done by placing yourself between that swamp of ships from the NE corner ( an the Fuso ) and the convoy making yourself a very apparent target , basically doing a fire bait duty .. guess what .. you do not individually got the reward for that ... not for actually providing the protection to the convoy, not for delivering them all alive ( a secondary task ) not for protecting them to final exit ( main task ) all these are team goal and team rewarded , not for the guy who had to do all the hard job and while at the same time need to keep dodging all the incoming so to stay alive and of course forget about dealing much damage at the same time .. when most of the team doing the BB{s) enjoy relative safety and farm damage and kills ... 

Yes its true that players had exhibit selfishness and not particularly team play but let's not excuse the game for what it is , a game mechanism that practically do not reward and in fact negatively reward those who do , players are discouraged to do these support, defensive, and misc vital role as its endangering the oneself mighty while giving little to no return when those whose out farming damage, benefit ... its not just Op .. such happen in all games and all game mode AFAIK ... and in many cases it had driven many a player simply to quit doing those duties no matter what ( even at the cost of losing the game ) and can we really simply point that to players not team playing ... well part of that only ... really

Agreed. I was doing Aegis tonight in Dunkerque. Almost the entire team, myself included, started heading north to the BBs. I really didn't want to tank for the convoy. Dunkerque takes a lot of damage if not bow tanking, and guarding the convoy would mean placing myself in a crossfire between 3 BBs.

But I did it anyway, because I was closest and fastest BB. Ended up not doing too much more damage and dying soon after, but protected convoy long enough for allies to finish BBs and take over.

Back when the 3 BBs were CVs, it was silly to take a BB against them, that was a cruiser job, and BBs were needed to guard convoy. These days, BBs or DDs are safer options against the enemy BBs. So does that mean that by default cruisers should be the ones tanking damage (or just drawing fire) for convoy?

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On 5/6/2019 at 7:18 PM, Mechfori said:

Often I was left alone in my CL / CA at the last stage of the game escorting the convoy home

In many matches, I observed that a majority players only want to farm damage and leave it to others to survive to the end and win the operation for them. It’s frustrating so see those players at the top of the team table.

 In this particular operation, you can do well with a DD that can stealth fire torps. Because the enemy ships always spawn in the same spots, it is easy to position for a good torpedo run. For example, the two IJN BB in the north on DD can take out easily. So a good op to train DD captains of various nations.

 Maybe this would be an operation to allow T5 and T6 ships, like when operations started.

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On 5/8/2019 at 7:36 AM, Grygus_Triss said:

I’ve been using Dunkerque, Warspite and Prinz Eitel Friedrich regularly in Aegis in the past week.

I also have Dunkerque too. She has good guns but dispersion is horrible at times. Her armor is very weak against HE shells. Now, this is my main reason of why I always go hide behind the big island in the east immediately and then wait for my friendly cruisers to finish of the second wave. After that, I go back to the west side of the map, go to north while also sniping at the convoying enemy cruisers. I found this tactics to be useful while using light armored BBs.

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