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Navy_Sensou

Genuine Question

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If my winrate is going up since the rework, does that mean that this rework actually is a buff to the CVs? Or is it just that i don't get to face super unicum divisions so often anymore? Many discussions have been made to talk about carriers this and that but on the real battle results, it's seemed to be quite positive. Sure that WG made it fun to play but i also feel strengthened against AA cruisers.

image.thumb.png.0aa8b5402e50da3ca3d119e6ebcbf9a4.png

Further more, if i still go on winning like this, does that also mean that the skill gap is still there?

Edited by Navy_Sensou

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1 hour ago, Navy_Sensou said:

If my winrate is going up since the rework, does that mean that this rework actually is a buff to the CVs? Or is it just that i don't get to face super unicum divisions so often anymore? Many discussions have been made to talk about carriers this and that but on the real battle results, it's seemed to be quite positive. Sure that WG made it fun to play but i also feel strengthened against AA cruisers.

image.thumb.png.0aa8b5402e50da3ca3d119e6ebcbf9a4.png

Further more, if i still go on winning like this, does that also mean that the skill gap is still there?

Well done mate! You are certainly very successful player in new CV. Currently number 18 in Hakuryu leaderboard and number 1 in Audacious leaderboard.

So, to answer your question, do you think in term of old CV, number 1 to number 18 in leaderboard will have higher or lower win rate than 66~71% range?

This old Hakuryu leaderboard:

Screenshot_20190501-190339_Chrome.thumb.jpg.552215d02cad692aab8ae3c861b89f4c.jpg

This is old Midway leaderboard:

Screenshot_20190501-190305_Chrome.thumb.jpg.e087b4cc407a068aef3f321850b00742.jpg

Is it really a direct buff to CV? When the top player's stats are not where near old version CV?

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1 hour ago, Navy_Sensou said:

Or is it just that i don't get to face super unicum divisions so often anymore?

I would say the rework has definitely reduced the amount of influence CVs have. Pre-rework having a super unicum CV fishing division pretty much meant GG. Now my team at least has a fighting chance. Heck I have won against such divisions with the rework simply because my team played better and the unicums couldn't carry as hard as before.

As for AA cruisers, the rework is designed that you can still get at least 1 attack off against high AA ships, although you will wipe your squad in the process. Unlike before your squadrons will disappear before you can even drop your payload. But you still wouldn't want to attack AA cruisers if you can avoid it.

1 hour ago, Navy_Sensou said:

Further more, if i still go on winning like this, does that also mean that the skill gap is still there?

Imo there will always be a skill-gap to some extent. If a unicum can't perform much better than a potato in a certain ship, then that ship is flawed. The key question which should be asked is has CV influence been reduced. And I would most definitely. A skilled CV player can still do well, but they can't single-handedly dominate the entire match like before.

Right now CVs excel in punishing poor teams with bad positioning. If a team plays well by pushing forward and providing mutual AA support for one another, there is not much a CV can do.

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18 hours ago, sunlo2013 said:

Is it really a direct buff to CV? When the top player's stats are not where near old version CV?

 

Edited by dieselhead

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24 minutes ago, dieselhead said:

Well as Im sure you are aware using the leader board to say if a class is OP or has been buffed is hardly accurate, having said that you could say CV has simultaneously been buffed and nerfed with the rework. Buffed due to its only true hard counter (other CV) being 98% removed from opposing it. And nerfed due to its alpha dmg being a lot less now.

There are variety of statistics from top percentile to average across different skill level. All against new CV is more powerful than old one.

You can talk feeling all day long with your significant other, but in here we want statistics and evidence to support claims.

Edited by sunlo2013

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2 minutes ago, dieselhead said:

LOL...At least I have a significant other. I bet all you have is your hand....

As for your retarded shitpost, explain to me how the leaderboard has anything whatsoever to do with a ship being op? It only shows who has the best scores with that ship.

I also said (if you actually read it properly) that CV was simultaneously buffed and nerfed at the same time. I didnt say anything about it being better now than before at all. NOT ONE WORD.

Where is your evidence to support your claim? I couldn't see you providing any here.

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16 hours ago, sunlo2013 said:

Where is your evidence to support your claim? I couldn't see you providing any here.

 

Edited by dieselhead

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6 minutes ago, dieselhead said:

Where is yours? You didnt supply any either.

Lol, I provided so many stats and evidence from variety source that against everything you have claimed against CV rework. Do you have slight idea how big of a laughing stock you are in the forum?

Btw, your personal attack won't work on me, people who know me in wows community knew that I have a very happy family and comfortable life style. So you can stuff all those up your AA.

Edited by sunlo2013

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22 minutes ago, dieselhead said:

As for your retarded shitpost, explain to me how the leaderboard has anything whatsoever to do with a ship being op? It only shows who has the best scores with that ship.

It is logical that the values on the leaderboard created by the best of the best players of a ship indicate the maximum skill ceiling of a vessel that correlates to its actual strength in-game, and that the new carriers thus are in general practice less potent than their RTS counterparts.

About as logical as providing facts to back claims versus throwing insults.

 

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15 hours ago, sunlo2013 said:

Lol, I provided so many stats and evidence from variety source that against everything you have claimed against CV rework. Do you have slight idea how big of a laughing stock you are in the forum?

Btw, your personal attack won't work on me, people who know me in wows community knew that I have a very happy family and comfortable life style. So you can stuff all those up your AA.

 

Edited by dieselhead

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15 hours ago, InterconKW said:

It is logical that the values on the leaderboard created by the best of the best players of a ship indicate the maximum skill ceiling of a vessel that correlates to its actual strength in-game, and that the new carriers thus are in general practice less potent than their RTS counterparts.

About as logical as providing facts to back claims versus throwing insults.

 

 

 

16 hours ago, dieselhead said:

having said that you could say CV has simultaneously been buffed and nerfed with the rework. Buffed due to its only true hard counter (other CV) being 98% removed from opposing it. And nerfed due to its alpha dmg being a lot less now.

 

Edited by dieselhead

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1 minute ago, dieselhead said:

Somebody is getting upset..lol. Do you need a tissue sweetheart? Its ok, im sure your mummy still loves you.

CV were still buffed and nerfed and you didnt provide any stats proving they weren't because you know it's true.

 You also didnt answer my question regarding if you think they were only nerfed.

 You do realize that the OP was also suggesting that CV's were buffed since his stats are better now right?

I can be that much of a laughing stock since a LOT of other players have voiced the same concerns as me on this and all the other forums around the place.

There is an old saying that says where there is smoke there is fire, maybe you should have a think about that regarding all this CV rework stuff.

 

3 hours ago, sunlo2013 said:

This is old Midway leaderboard:

Screenshot_20190501-190305_Chrome.thumb.jpg.e087b4cc407a068aef3f321850b00742.jpg

Is it really a direct buff to CV? When the top player's stats are not where near old version CV?

 

3 minutes ago, InterconKW said:

About as logical as providing facts to back claims versus throwing insults.

 

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3 hours ago, dieselhead said:

I would agree the rework is a buff to CV's in the sense you have no real direct opponent anymore.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, dieselhead said:

I can be that much of a laughing stock since a LOT of other players have voiced the same concerns as me on this and all the other forums around the place.

There is an old saying that says where there is smoke there is fire, maybe you should have a think about that regarding all this CV rework stuff.

There is also that old saying: "Empty vessels make the most noise".

I love these old proverbs. There is a suitable one for almost any situation.

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3 hours ago, sunlo2013 said:

Is it really a direct buff to CV? When the top player's stats are not where near old version CV?

Yes, it is. Previously you could count the number of effective CV captains on one hand [figuratively speaking] as it was a very difficult skill to master. Now it's so easy that any mong can do it and do it well. Hence there are CVs almost every game as the potatoes that can't cut it in the other classes can now suddenly rack up damage numbers they dared not dream of achieving previously.

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4 minutes ago, Bex_o7 said:

Yes, it is. Previously you could count the number of effective CV captains on one hand [figuratively speaking] as it was a very difficult skill to master. Now it's so easy that any mong can do it and do it well.

 

Unrelated to original post but this is an interesting observation I've made.

The vast majority of the "damage" caused by the carrier rework is not caused by the strength of the individual carrier. It is caused by the number of carriers in queue. 

For example, before the carrier rework, destroyers were very vulnerable to CV deletion (crossdrop was a thing and smokedropping from a topdown view was very much easy, as was letting an idle squadron freely spot them. Carriers also had much more map control) and for most destroyers going alone was a deathwish, just as much as now IMO if not more (Granted there are rockets now but aforementioned previous advantages have disappeared). The class was saved (compared to the rework) by one factor: Certain AA builds. Many bad destroyers would still go alone, get permaspotted and die.
*Now some people have complained about AA builds being too ineffective. IMO, there's some merit to this change. The CV was the most influential before the rework but an AA built cruiser could effectively wall the CV off from part of the map. Remember how easily AA and CV anchor divs could lopside the game's odds? I think that was even more broken than now. Still, universally stepping up some AA especially on some high tier ships or classes that are overly vulnerable might be a good idea.

Post rework, however, the issue is that destroyers are not running into carriers once in 10 games. They run into them every game. So while the individual impact of the carrier has not necessarily increased and probably even decreased, the destroyers are still getting oppressed and it has become a frequent occurrence. So now people notice it.

Perhaps this is more of an extreme than in the other classes (highlighting a rebalance of DDs VS CVs was maybe needed even before the rework) but you get the core idea.

31 minutes ago, Bex_o7 said:

Hence there are CVs almost every game as the potatoes that can't cut it in the other classes can now suddenly rack up damage numbers they dared not dream of achieving previously.

Carriers were a good damage dealing class before the rework, and are still quite effective at what they do. The thing is, the rework has lowered the skill gap. During the RTS days getting into carriers was extremely hard due to clubbing, being forced to learn alt-attacks in the harsher tier 6 environment (where one could already face T8 AA and 677/788 anchor divs and whatnot) and an inherently huge skill gap due to these mechanics. It is not necessarily a bad thing that more people are playing carriers, as it shows a goal has been met. Carriers are more playable.

Add to this that CVs are also new. The number in play now is not the eventual number it will normalize to be. If anything I've seen surface line releases with greater impacts. The number of BBs in queue during the KMBB release hit three figures at times, more extreme than even the carriers following the premium sales. I don't fully agree with your judgement here.


I think the carrier rework just highlights issues in a game and especially community that was not acclimatized to seeing the "hated black sheep" of the 4 classes often.  

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When comparing top percentile of player performance. We have to also consider the population size. 

So the top 20 player in old CV represented top 1% of player of population 2000 player.

As you all know from another statistic shown that population of new CV has grown 500~600% on average.

So when we look at top 1% new CV player performance, we probably need to look at top 100~120. The stats will be significant lower than old CV.

 

Edited by sunlo2013

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14 hours ago, sunlo2013 said:

When comparing top percentile of player performance. I have to also consider the population size. 

So the top 20 player in old CV represented top 1% of player of population 2000 player.

As you all know from another static shown that population of new CV has grown 500~600% on average.

So when we look at top 1% new CV player performance, we probably need to look at top 100~120. The stats will be significant lower than old CV.

 

 

Edited by dieselhead

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1 hour ago, dieselhead said:

Somebody is getting upset..lol. Do you need a tissue sweetheart? Its ok, im sure your mummy still loves you.

Why would I upset when I am winning every single argument against you? 

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14 hours ago, sunlo2013 said:

Why would I upset when I am winning every single argument against you? 

 

Edited by dieselhead

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4 minutes ago, dieselhead said:

Errrm thats NOT saying CV's are more OP now than before, thats simply pointing out one buff cv's got after the rework. Please go read my very first post.

 

6 hours ago, Navy_Sensou said:

If my winrate is going up since the rework, does that mean that this rework actually is a buff to the CVs?

 

5 hours ago, dieselhead said:

I would agree the rework is a buff to CV's in the sense you have no real direct opponent anymore.

The rework removed your direct opponent and placed it in the hands of RNG based AA.

SKill gap is still and always will be a thing in this and all classes of ship given the MM doesn't take into account players skills when deciding the teams, only ship class.

Quiet common to see one team with a group of non div unicum players and the other with some potatoes.

 Doesn't seem like you struggled in either version of CV's anyway.............

You gave the first post a response, and it was contested. It's just long derailed at this point, largely due to unnecessary insult slinging that you're guilty of partaking in since even before this thread.

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16 hours ago, InterconKW said:

 

 

You gave the first post a response, and it was contested. It's just long derailed at this point, largely due to unnecessary insult slinging that you're guilty of partaking in since even before this thread.


Insult, user warned.
~TheAzure

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