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sunlo2013

Pre- and Post- CV Rework Stat Comparison (Originated from Reddit)

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EDIT: I just crunched the numbers for the EU and ASIA servers as well. The trends are basically the same, but survival rates for everyone but carriers took as nosedive on the ASIA server. Here is a copy of the full analysis if anyone is interested: Google Doc Link


If anyone wants hard numbers on just how things have changed with the CV rework, here you go. It's not quite how things are often portrayed.

Source: http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/

I pulled 1-week stats for this previous week and the week just before 0.8.0 (aka the cv-rework) dropped. Specifically, the weeks of 1/19/19 and 4/23/19 for the NA server.

The comparison looks at class averages. The ships represented within those averages have been weighted against their total number of battles played, and the total of their respective class. This will reduce the effect that a little played, but exceptionally good or bad ship will have on the final results. Furthermore, only tiers 10, 8, 6, and 4 will be looked at, as they are the only tiers will carriers at the moment.

Watered down results in graphical format can be found here: Link to Imgur Bar Graphs

And a more detailed look at it here:


Well, I was going to post my observations after the numbers, but holy crap, that's a lot of numbers. I figured after typing those that dialog would be more likely to be seen if it was up here.

So, what do we see?

At Tier 10:

  • All classes are doing slightly less damage
  • Fighting around the caps is more common
  • Survival rates have lowered for all but CVs. DDs dropped 10% (31.99 to 28.75)
  • Spotting damage is lower across all classes

At Tier 8:

  • All classes are doing slightly less damage
  • Fighting around the caps is more common
  • Survival rates have lowered for all but CVs
  • Spotting damage is lower across all classes

At Tier 6:

  • Carriers are doing 12% more damage than they used to. Everyone else has dropped
  • Survival rates haven't changed much except for DDs. They dropped 10% (22.19 to 19.93)
  • Spotting damage is lower across all classes

At Tier 4:

  • Carrier damage has dropped significantly, all others raised slightly
  • Survival rates have dropped for all but CVs. DDs dropped by 13% (20.8 to 18.16)

Overall:

  • The population is down currently for all but CVs
  • The CV population has exploded at all tiers
  • CVs are doing less damage at all but T6 by fairly significant amounts
  • CVs are getting fewer kills at all but T6
  • CVs are getting significantly less spotting damage at all tiers
  • DD survival rate is down across the board
  • CVs spot more than any other class, but are actually spotting less than they used to at least as far as damage is concerned

Personal thoughts:

  • If we had the current CV population with the old system, things would be much, much, much worse
  • Formatting on Reddit sucks, and my hands hurt
  • CV spotting is still a problem, but is it better than it used to be. The CV population is just making design flaws much more apparent
  • Server population appears to be down a bit, but that might be a seasonal thing / bad time to be sampling data

Tier 10 - 4/23/19

Class Player Count Battle Count Win Rate Avg. XP Avg. Damage Avg. Kills Avg. Base Cap Avg. Base Defense Survival Rate Avg. Spotting Damage
BB 4280 59468 49.08 1712.8 85029.44 0.84 3.36 4.66 35.79 19361.07
CA 4884 66172 50.05 1688.94 71459.28 0.82 7.55 7.8 34.62 18211.73
CV 980 16102 50.54 2015.94 90725.84 1.05 0.46 12.71 74.63 68473.68
DD 3008 44109 49.34 1466.35 44331.61 0.68 29.37 5.32 28.75 30091.71

Tier 10 - 1/19/19

Class Player Count Battle Count Win Rate Avg. XP Avg. Damage Avg. Kills Avg. Base Cap Avg. Base Defense Survival Rate Avg. Spotting Damage
BB 5026 66791 49.6 1716.83 87048.02 0.86 3.04 4.44 37.06 22128.95
CA 6337 84336 49.49 1710.27 73433.46 0.82 6.48 6.99 34.92 19829.35
CV 199 3107 51.2 2037.32 110481.75 1.61 0.73 6.11 71.31 83246.91
DD 4069 59874 49.43 1530.1 48564.32 0.76 28.83 5.9 31.99 32936.8

Percent Change

Class Player Count Battle Count Win Rate Avg. XP Avg. Damage Avg. Kills Avg. Base Cap Avg. Base Defense Survival Rate Avg. Spotting Damage
BB -15% -11% -1% 0% -2% -3% 11% 5% -3% -13%
CA -23% -22% 1% -1% -3% 0% 16% 12% -1% -8%
CV 492% 518% -1% -1% -18% -35% -36% 108% 5% -18%
DD -26% -26% 0% -4% -9% -10% 2% -10% -10% -9%

Tier 8 - 4/23/19

Class Player Count Battle Count Win Rate Avg. XP Avg. Damage Avg. Kills Avg. Base Cap Avg. Base Defense Survival Rate Avg. Spotting Damage
BB 4265 60271 49.26 1426.93 49670.04 0.65 3.89 4.46 29.81 14364.41
CA 3368 44981 49.37 1407.75 38005.98 0.55 6.57 6.53 25.95 12674.57
CV 3508 52910 50.19 1711.86 57260.68 0.85 0.63 11.76 71.48 41720.97
DD 2186 29584 49.28 1418.72 30541.64 0.59 27.58 5.35 26.16 20918.14

Tier 8 - 1/19/19

Class Player Count Battle Count Win Rate Avg. XP Avg. Damage Avg. Kills Avg. Base Cap Avg. Base Defense Survival Rate Avg. Spotting Damage
BB 6708 87723 48.89 1276.21 51268.97 0.65 3.24 4.21 31.53 16957.59
CA 4930 61940 49.15 1292.22 41700.81 0.61 5.34 6.42 28.41 14820.37
CV 432 5656 49.89 1329.55 61752.43 0.89 0.29 5.41 67.68 51105.38
DD 4216 53498 49.4 1400.68 34119.55 0.69 26.29 5.85 28.56 23685.43

Percent Change

Class Player Count Battle Count Win Rate Avg. XP Avg. Damage Avg. Kills Avg. Base Cap Avg. Base Defense Survival Rate Avg. Spotting Damage
BB -36% -31% 1% 12% -3% 0% 20% 6% -5% -15%
CA -32% -27% 0% 9% -9% -9% 23% 2% -9% -14%
CV 812% 935% 1% 29% -7% -5% 115% 117% 6% -18%
DD -48% -45% 0% 1% -10% -14% 5% -9% -8% -12%

Tier 6 - 4/23/19

Class Player Count Battle Count Win Rate Avg. XP Avg. Damage Avg. Kills Avg. Base Cap Avg. Base Defense Survival Rate Avg. Spotting Damage
BB 2369 32074 49.7 1080.14 36269.92 0.64 3.05 4.25 34.39 8769.99
CA 2518 32087 49.24 1064.23 25877.16 0.54 5.09 5.23 23.54 8173.58
CV 1969 28194 49.86 1189.16 38581.18 0.73 0.65 11.78 65.18 23761.04
DD 1500 19317 48.56 988.25 19283.03 0.54 18.31 3.9 19.93 11826.37

Tier 6 - 1/19/19

Class Player Count Battle Count Win Rate Avg. XP Avg. Damage Avg. Kills Avg. Base Cap Avg. Base Defense Survival Rate Avg. Spotting Damage
BB 8355 128599 50.16 1249.15 44387.37 0.82 4.16 5.27 34.61 11085.05
CA 5081 61922 49.06 1057.51 28391.69 0.55 4.59 5.52 22.78 9704.22
CV 552 6863 49.58 1076.69 34568.3 0.63 0.49 4.2 63.37 30826.1
DD 3587 44765 48.41 1016.01 21550.27 0.6 18.21 4.45 22.19 13184.6

Percent Change

Class Player Count Battle Count Win Rate Avg. XP Avg. Damage Avg. Kills Avg. Base Cap Avg. Base Defense Survival Rate Avg. Spotting Damage
BB -72% -75% -1% -14% -18% -21% -27% -19% -1% -21%
CA -50% -48% 0% 1% -9% -2% 11% -5% 3% -16%
CV 357% 411% 1% 10% 12% 16% 33% 180% 3% -23%
DD -58% -57% 0% -3% -11% -10% 0% -12% -10% -10%

Tier 4 - 4/23/19

Class Player Count Battle Count Win Rate Avg. XP Avg. Damage Avg. Kills Avg. Base Cap Avg. Base Defense Survival Rate Avg. Spotting Damage
BB 1804 23145 49.82 761.11 35043.69 0.93 5.29 9.29 38.13 4375.43
CA 1465 17431 49.17 757.32 22714.44 0.77 5.8 7.48 19.86 4441.33
CV 1671 24280 50.03 660.23 22937.34 0.6 0.9 11.81 57.81 14013.98
DD 1961 25083 49.53 680.87 21662.22 0.87 12.7 4.09 18.16 5922.72

Tier 4 - 1/19/19

Class Player Count Battle Count Win Rate Avg. XP Avg. Damage Avg. Kills Avg. Base Cap Avg. Base Defense Survival Rate Avg. Spotting Damage
BB 2401 29999 49.87 704.52 33741.76 0.87 5.11 9.21 39.58 5018.06
CA 1665 20451 49.14 685.07 21342.03 0.71 5.77 6.79 20.69 5571.73
CV 574 6792 51.08 756.12 31538.88 0.78 0.48 4.57 52.61 17460.89
DD 1459 18865 49.06 640.63 19813.67 0.79 15.26 4.06 20.8 7768.3

Percent Change

Class Player Count Battle Count Win Rate Avg. XP Avg. Damage Avg. Kills Avg. Base Cap Avg. Base Defense Survival Rate Avg. Spotting Damage
BB -25% -23% 0% 8% 4% 7% 4% 1% -4% -13%
CA -12% -15% 0% 11% 6% 8% 0% 10% -4% -20%
CV 291% 357% -2% -13% -27% -24% 89% 159% 10% -20%
DD 34% 33% 1% 6% 9% 10% -17% 1% -13% -24%

Edit: The formatting didn't get devstruck! Woo!

 

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I think this is one of the more objective statistic about CV rework you can find at current stage.

Look at the percentage increase in CV population is astonishing. It shows how successful CV rework in accomplishing their primary goal.

It also confirm CV rework had reduced carry potential of CV as a class. Both kills per match, damage are down significantly, across all tier, except T6.

Spotting damage also down significantly across all tier.

But the huge jump in CV population, did magnified design flaw in game, even it was minor design flaw may get magnified to big problem for some players. That's why CV population increased skill gaps for other classes.

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Just a couple of things.

1. WR must average to 50%. The distance the actual number is from 50 gives you an estimate of the statistical noise.

2. I was surprised that spotting damage wasn't hit harder. It's also weird that CV spotting damage is also down. It means that CV spotting doesn't help the other ships on the team hit the target more, it only helps the CV farm more damage.

Edited by Rina_Pon

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14 minutes ago, sunlo2013 said:

I think this is one of the more objective statistic about CV rework you can find at current stage.

Look at the percentage increase in CV population is astonishing. It shows how successful CV rework in accomplishing their primary goal.

It also confirm CV rework had reduced carry potential of CV as a class. Both kills per match, damage are down significantly, across all tier, except T6.

Spotting damage also down significantly across all tier.

But the huge jump in CV population, did magnified design flaw in game, even it was minor design flaw may get magnified to big problem for some players. That's why CV population increased skill gaps for other classes.

"The population is down currently for all but CVs" but the overall population?  no much difference so far.. and consider rework as a new investment. what do you recogn for the Long Term?

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At last, some real statistics and proof to back up/disprove what is happening.

Observations and explainations:
1. The spotting is reduced because you only have one flight up in the air at anyone time. Previously, you could have 9 (taking haku as example).
2. Damage reduced because i) reduced alpha ii) influx of less skilled players (ie, this is not an "exclusive class" anymore).
3. CV damage selectively increases as the battle lasts longer because if they manage their planes properly, the strikes are more likely to land on the target as the AA thins out. From the CV replays I have seen so far, at the beginning, CVs can't do much damage because of the AA density, but as the opponent thins out and their AA is reduced, CV become for effective.
4. Of course population distribution change because more people try CV. You have the same pool of players, to go somewhere, you need to leave one place.
5. T6 is an anomaly because at this tier AA is pretty questionable.
 

Basically, we all need to relearn and adapt to new things whether we like it or not. I am not going to get my old CV back so... But it still does not change my position that this rollout was not done effectively.

You would get many smiley faces but the forums only allows me to give out one.

Edited by dejiko_nyo
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2 minutes ago, tsuenwan said:

"The population is down currently for all but CVs" but the overall population?  no much difference so far.. and consider rework as a new investment. what do you recogn for the Long Term?

I reckon that it will be pretty much static (the overall population) as wows will be fighting for the same pool of players as wot and wowp, unless they advertise better. You are going to get natural attrition, people leaving because they are disgusted with the "rework" and then you have the natural growth. The key points is they are competing for players and trying to retain the current players.

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21 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

Basically, we all need to relearn and adapt to new things whether we like it or not.

While it's a good habit in general, so far as WoWS is concerned ragequitting is a totally viable option.

But seriously though, how's that relearning working out for people? Are you enjoying the game again?

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1 minute ago, Rina_Pon said:

But seriously though, how's that relearning working out for people? Are you enjoying the game again?

Yes and no. But as clan leader, I need to roll with the times and support my clan. 

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How often and how many times people have to un-learn and re-learn? Things have to settle down a little bit to allow people really learn (or even master).

 

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51 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

I reckon that it will be pretty much static (the overall population) as wows will be fighting for the same pool of players as wot and wowp, unless they advertise better. You are going to get natural attrition, people leaving because they are disgusted with the "rework" and then you have the natural growth. The key points is they are competing for players and trying to retain the current players.

Will be interesting to see if having Warships on the consoles affects the PC population.

Anyone know if it affected Tanks?

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4 minutes ago, BanditSE1977 said:

Will be interesting to see if having Warships on the consoles affects the PC population.

Consoles they are trying to tap into new market. You can effectively consider it a different game as the PC and console versions are not linked. I expect new market growth but doubt there will be a decline in the PC version as there will be a hesitancy to switch from PC to console if you already invested heavily on PC. Unless you are a masochist. There is some overlap between console/PC gamers as some own both, but it all boils down to the investment.

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43 minutes ago, tsuenwan said:

How often and how many times people have to un-learn and re-learn? Things have to settle down a little bit to allow people really learn (or even master).

 

You over complicated things and confusing yourself and others. As surface ships, we don't need to "un learn or relearn" anything, We just need to apply already exist skill set to better suits new meta/strategy. 

Only new things people need to learn is how CV plays, what they can and can't do effectively. 

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nice numbers but can someone tell me what's that " The CV population is just making design flaws much more apparent  " ... and why is it not deal with ... we all know what and why survival rate especially DD are down significantly ... it simply discourage people from playing and new player would find it even harder to play since they had not master the skill ... Its just yet prove that while CV rework might had been improvement for CV ( and I do agree and disagree in part ) its making every other suffer without fair play and counter play offered and downright broke many

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1 hour ago, sunlo2013 said:

You over complicated things and confusing yourself and others. As surface ships, we don't need to "un learn or relearn" anything, We just need to apply already exist skill set to better suits new meta/strategy. 

Only new things people need to learn is how CV plays, what they can and can't do effectively. 

Nothing to learn and adapt? WG did not just change CV through

Edited by tsuenwan
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22 minutes ago, tsuenwan said:

Nothing to learn and adapt? WG did not just change CV through

I just find your response very funny.

You make make up all these jargon of learn, relearn unlearn dis-learn co-learn. Add whatever prefix in the syntax to confuse yourself and dislodge other all you want. 

However, they are still pointless pieces of alphabets put together. 

In my previous post, I am pretty clear you obviously need to learn " how CV plays, what they can and can't do effectively" because they has been change since 0.8.0. However, for surface ship you just " need to apply already exist skill set to better suits new meta/strategy" in other word adapt to meta. 

Seriously man, put more time and effort work on your performance in the game itself and give your valuable advice when you can achieve certain level of competency. 

 

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58 minutes ago, sunlo2013 said:

I just find your response very funny.

You make make up all these jargon of learn, relearn unlearn dis-learn co-learn. Add whatever prefix in the syntax to confuse yourself and dislodge other all you want. 

However, they are still pointless pieces of alphabets put together. 

In my previous post, I am pretty clear you obviously need to learn " how CV plays, what they can and can't do effectively" because they has been change since 0.8.0. However, for surface ship you just " need to apply already exist skill set to better suits new meta/strategy" in other word adapt to meta. 

Seriously man, put more time and effort work on your performance in the game itself and give your valuable advice when you can achieve certain level of competency. 

 

I did not invent "learn and adapt", or "learn whatever", somehow I understood what they mean. 

This forum is for discussion. It does not stop anyone playing the game. I did not spent a lot of time in the forum, neither with the game. The forum allows posting after 10 games, not unicum status.

Regardling the word relearn or unlearn, with the amount of change/patches release after rework. I was wondering how long WG would finally converge on the amount of change? Just as a piece of software. 

Edited by tsuenwan

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7 hours ago, sunlo2013 said:

Personal thoughts:

  • If we had the current CV population with the old system, things would be much, much, much worse
  • Formatting on Reddit sucks, and my hands hurt
  • CV spotting is still a problem, but is it better than it used to be. The CV population is just making design flaws much more apparent
  • Server population appears to be down a bit, but that might be a seasonal thing / bad time to be sampling data

I'll just highlight two very interesting points that people need to seriously consider...

And btw really good post. Pretty spot on about the current situation.:Smile_honoring:

 

Edited by _TAMAL_

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5 minutes ago, _TAMAL_ said:

I'll just highlight two very interesting points that people need to seriously consider...

And btw really good post. Pretty spot on about the current situation.:Smile_honoring:

 

Indeed things could be much much worst if under the current CV population.

If the current  population is a short term thing, what will be long term CV population like? Or what is WG target CV population ?

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5 minutes ago, tsuenwan said:

Indeed things could be much much worst if under the current CV population.

If the current  population is a short term thing, what will be long term CV population like? Or what is WG target CV population ?

We don't know that yet. The situation would be much better if they hadn't gone with the Air Supply crate sales thingy... there is A LOT of premium CVs now in T8. Without those, there was a possibility to mayb limit CVs to 1 per team in T8(that is out of the window now). Whatever number they are willing to achieve will not sustain because Que times will become higher with more players getting to higher tiers...also, with a lot of players outright refusing to play(or doing stupid things in game to provoke hate), WG will have to carefully decide what direction they want their game to go.

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3 minutes ago, _TAMAL_ said:

We don't know that yet. The situation would be much better if they hadn't gone with the Air Supply crate sales thingy... there is A LOT of premium CVs now in T8. Without those, there was a possibility to mayb limit CVs to 1 per team in T8(that is out of the window now). Whatever number they are willing to achieve will not sustain because Que times will become higher with more players getting to higher tiers...also, with a lot of players outright refusing to play(or doing stupid things in game to provoke hate), WG will have to carefully decide what direction they want their game to go.

Is the population acceptable before the crate drop or before 0.8.3? Would WG accept that ?

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1 minute ago, tsuenwan said:

Is the population acceptable before the crate drop or before 0.8.3? Would WG accept that ?

Depends on their goals(which was to increase popularity of CVs to say roughly, exact numerical expectations unknown)

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9 hours ago, sunlo2013 said:

I think this is one of the more objective statistic about CV rework you can find at current stage.

Look at the percentage increase in CV population is astonishing. It shows how successful CV rework in accomplishing their primary goal.

It also confirm CV rework had reduced carry potential of CV as a class. Both kills per match, damage are down significantly, across all tier, except T6.

Spotting damage also down significantly across all tier.

But the huge jump in CV population, did magnified design flaw in game, even it was minor design flaw may get magnified to big problem for some players. That's why CV population increased skill gaps for other classes.

Funny how it shows DD population down across the board, pretty sure someone said that was the case and they got shouted down on this exact forum. What an amazing thing he was actually correct after all......

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1 minute ago, dieselhead said:

Funny how it shows DD population down across the board, pretty sure someone said that was the case and they got shouted down on this exact forum. What an amazing thing he was actually correct after all......

most of my dd are gunbote. its pretty toxic to play gunbote on this new meta. so i stop playing them.

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Interesting analysis - the numbers are pretty much what I was expecting.

It is clear that the rework was a success in that it got lots of people to play CVs.

But perhaps it is a victim of its success? The MM can't handle the popularity of CVs, and the game very clearly isn't made for 3 CVs per side.

Regardless, this shows the rework is still not complete - more changes still need to be made.

9 hours ago, dejiko_nyo said:

Basically, we all need to relearn and adapt to new things whether we like it or not. I am not going to get my old CV back so... But it still does not change my position that this rollout was not done effectively.

Pretry much this. 

I realise no amount of whining is going to bring back my RTS CVs, so the best thing to do would to be to adapt and relearn CVs.

Also I find it hilarious that some players are complaining about having to relearn the meta. They somehow forgot that pretty much all CV players had to relearn the class pretty much from scratch. :Smile_sceptic:

It also reinforces what I have said previously - that people generally don't like to change their habits and behaviours and having to learn new things. 

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