Death of the destroyers role.

[charleark]

World of Warships seems determined to drive DDs from the game. Multiple aircraft now make spotting the enemy a non event.  Stealth which DDs really on is near impossible. Either panned by radar or spotted by enemy aircraft DD come under fire from enemy vessels from up to 20 kilometers away. A DD isolated in a attempt to approach the enemy for a torpedo attack is quickly dealt with by multiple aircraft attacks and spotted by enemy vessels. With torpedo attacks limited to 12 kilometers and less to have any chance of being effective the only alternative are the main guns once again with limited range. Open fire with main guns and risk enemy vessels within 20 kilometers bring about unrealistic accurate broadsides from a range a DD can not even defend itself against.The developers of this game have enhanced many changes particularly aircraft carriers but DDs have been forgotten. What next you ask. Give DDs wooden hulls a set of oars and make them totally a forgotten ineffective vessel in this game.       

[tsuenwan]

When "CV rework" was announced, WG stated:

CV play style was unique compare with BB/CA/CL/DD.

The CV part of the software required a separate team to support and maintain. and the CV player population was too small to sustain this team. So the rework was there to increase the CV player population.

I guess WG may view the lost of DD player population are acceptable as their DEV team can still live on BB and CA/CL.

I remembered NoZoup saying There were jobs in WG depending on the outcome of this CV rework.. etc.etc and stop complaining etc etc

[_Blink_Blackwolf]

Issue is that, CVs were originally released as counter to DDs as there were no Radar back then. But because CV population was small, DDs had a lot of influence...so WG implemented Radar. Now that we have both CV and Radar pretty much prominent, it has become hard for DDs 

[lengxv6]

1 hour ago, tsuenwan said:

When "CV rework" was announced, WG stated:

CV play style was unique compare with BB/CA/CL/DD.

The CV part of the software required a separate team to support and maintain. and the CV player population was too small to sustain this team. So the rework was there to increase the CV player population.

I guess WG may view the lost of DD player population are acceptable as their DEV team can still live on BB and CA/CL.

I remembered NoZoup saying There were jobs in WG depending on the outcome of this CV rework.. etc.etc and stop complaining etc etc

NoZoup might have said it, never heard him say it, but he might have said it - Truth is, no jobs would be on the line because of the rework, since all Devs would be involved, as per any rework or new line. Probably a lot of yelling and screaming, maybe some pointing of fingers, but no job losses.

 

And for information, CV's were never introduced to counter DD's, for the most part, DD's were just an annoyance to CV's, yeah, DD's could cap, yep, DD's could sneak in an try to kill the CV's, but they are the only reasons a CV would go after a DD. For the most part, CV players were/are after XP, and a DD kill just doesn't cut it like a BB kill

[Moggytwo]

4 hours ago, charleark said:

World of Warships seems determined to drive DDs from the game.

Well clearly this isn't the case.  A well played DD is still vital to any team.

However, you do have a point in that a DD's job is more difficult than it has ever been.  You really have to know what you're doing, and you have to position and execute well, because small mistakes will get you killed more rapidly than any other class.  This has always been the case, but it's even more so now.  I would argue that a well played DD is likely to have a higher win rate now than they've ever had, because poorly played DD's are punished so heavily that it is significantly easier to outplay your direct opponent.  Combine that with the current low number of DD's per battle, and often you're the only one on your team doing your job as a DD, and a DD's job still goes further to winning the game than any other ship.

All this is not good for the game.  One of the main reasons for the CV rework was because it was too hard to play for average players, and that the skill gap between the best CV players and the poor to average CV players was too significant.  Ironically, by fixing this problem for CV's, they have exacerbated it for DD's.

I think changes are required to help average DD players do better.  The class needs to be more forgiving, to encourage more players to play as a DD, and to enable them to be more successful when they do play.  I would suggest radar range nerfs, 11km for Russian radar, and 9km for US/UK radars.  This will give a greater area of the map in which DD's can safely operate.  I think they also need further air spotting range buffs, to help them out a bit more against CV spotting.  These changes should be sufficient to make DD's a bit more forgiving to play, and hopefully bring them a bit closer to other classes.

[charleark]

Thanks for comments and Moggytwo your comments do have merit.

[Soloun]

So they gamble on losing the DD players, along with many of the rest of us in the hope that the new CV will increase population for CV's? That sounds pretty stupid.

I've seen vids showing that the DD population is fine, yet I hardly ever see them in game. Its bad enough as a cruiser with 4 CV's per match, as a DD, forget it.

Are the rest of us supposed to be the fodder for CV's? 

I hope many peeps at WGing lost their jobs who made these stupid decisions, unfortunately the idiots who decided to make these idiotic changes are probably still running things from their accounting software packages. 

[tsuenwan]

6 hours ago, lengxv6 said:

NoZoup might have said it, never heard him say it, but he might have said it - Truth is, no jobs would be on the line because of the rework, since all Devs would be involved, as per any rework or new line. Probably a lot of yelling and screaming, maybe some pointing of fingers, but no job losses.

 

And for information, CV's were never introduced to counter DD's, for the most part, DD's were just an annoyance to CV's, yeah, DD's could cap, yep, DD's could sneak in an try to kill the CV's, but they are the only reasons a CV would go after a DD. For the most part, CV players were/are after XP, and a DD kill just doesn't cut it like a BB kill

CV's different play style and UI required a separate team was also stated by more than one source including Notser (took me a while to find it)

 

It is all up to WG to prioritize which group of player they would like to keep.  with the current status, it appeared the priority was to increase the CV population than keeping the existing DD or other players.

 

[Thyaliad]

1 hour ago, Moggytwo said:

All this is not good for the game.  One of the main reasons for the CV rework was because it was too hard to play for average players, and that the skill gap between the best CV players and the poor to average CV players was too significant.  Ironically, by fixing this problem for CV's, they have exacerbated it for DD's.

Agreed. 

While the skill gap has been greatly reduced for CVs, it has instead increased for DDs.

Also I have found that once a good DD that knows how to avoid planes and radar gets a cap, that cap usually remains in the hands of that DD's team for the majority of the game. Because it is a lot harder for an enemy DD to get that cap back.

2 hours ago, Moggytwo said:

I would suggest radar range nerfs, 11km for Russian radar, and 9km for US/UK radars.

Honestly I have no idea why WG decided to buff radar duration and to "standardise" (and I mean buff) radar range when implementing the radar detection changes. That was really too much, especially when taken together with the CV rework.

[exter001]

1 hour ago, Thyaliad said:

Agreed. 

While the skill gap has been greatly reduced for CVs, it has instead increased for DDs.

Also I have found that once a good DD that knows how to avoid planes and radar gets a cap, that cap usually remains in the hands of that DD's team for the majority of the game. Because it is a lot harder for an enemy DD to get that cap back.

Honestly I have no idea why WG decided to buff radar duration and to "standardise" (and I mean buff) radar range when implementing the radar detection changes. That was really too much, especially when taken together with the CV rework.

When a DD gets a cap, it usually depends on the skill of the opposing CV, not exactly of the DDs player. I've seen too many games where a derp DD rush a cap and gets it because CV can't be bothered with it; and on the other hand saw a good CV player who hunted down/denied every single attempts a DDs tried to touch the cap.

 

As for the radar thing, I find it frustrating that baltimore which have 9.9k concealment now have 10k radar. Didn't we all agree that stealth radar is a bad thing for a game sometime ago?

[FinbarAu]

I am not making an opinion either way.....

But in 10 games this past week of T8 or higher, 2 of them had 1 DD aside each, the rest had no DD's.........

 

[tsuenwan]

When Radar was introduced, DD population also impacted. but it was overtaken by population growth in BB and CA/CL.

On the other hand, CV rework did increase the CV population but not enough to compensate the lost from all other classes.

 

[KmonX]

DDs sure are dying due to CVs but you can still find a lot of them. I as well play lots of Kidd which is an AA DD together with my mates on a div (which is basically CV DD CL div). And as I'm playing on my Shimakaze CVs are annoying but not enough to get you to port. Pretty annoying but still could cope with it atm.

[Mechfori]

DD just need to be given back ability to do their part in the way they are mean to be and that mean stealth and torp and rapid fire ... WG simply unable and likely unwilling to do it ...

It does not matter if you are good at playing DD or not if BB CA CV can play the game duration going their part but DD CL need to keep running from aerial elements with no proper counter play ( & radar ) and excluded from being able to do theirs because they cannot go stealth or because if they do then they are far out of range then .... Well we know what ... its this piece of gross in-balance thats really driving oeople away from playing DD ... 

[spixys]

17 時間前、Soloun の発言:

So they gamble on losing the DD players, along with many of the rest of us in the hope that the new CV will increase population for CV's? That sounds pretty stupid.

I've seen vids showing that the DD population is fine, yet I hardly ever see them in game. Its bad enough as a cruiser with 4 CV's per match, as a DD, forget it.

Are the rest of us supposed to be the fodder for CV's? 

I hope many peeps at WGing lost their jobs who made these stupid decisions, unfortunately the idiots who decided to make these idiotic changes are probably still running things from their accounting software packages. 

DD population either quit or play something else or goes on what so ever, only small amount of self-centered kinds like you whine the **** out of WG's every decision.

I feel sorry for people like you.. well Not really, I enjoyed reading your agony.

 

[AxEyBoI]

The Entire player base population has not grown. The CV re-work just increased the attracted a minority to go spend and increase the CV population and in return reduced the spending from the other 3 classes. People are not playing DD as much. Some games there is 1 and some none, its not often i see 2 or 3 in games anymore. I think WG has made a huge mistake with introducing the RUBB after the CV re-work. More fodder for the CV to target, (if there was not enough fish in the barrel, lets add a new one). How good is the RUBB AA going to be......., more unhappy BB players, unless another gimmick from WG gives it super AA  for players a reason to purchase them. I cant see why they would do any different to other BBs the way the Meta is now with the CV. Are they going to nerf the CV more or buff other ships?, they really got themselves caught on the fence with this. What ever happens, we all have to deal with it if we like it or not. Play or leave and WG has to deal with players leaving or if they spend or not. I say good luck to all and it turns out the way you want.

[dieselhead]

21 hours ago, Moggytwo said:

I think changes are required to help average DD players do better.  The class needs to be more forgiving, to encourage more players to play as a DD, and to enable them to be more successful when they do play.  I would suggest radar range nerfs, 11km for Russian radar, and 9km for US/UK radars.  This will give a greater area of the map in which DD's can safely operate.  I think they also need further air spotting range buffs, to help them out a bit more against CV spotting.  These changes should be sufficient to make DD's a bit more forgiving to play, and hopefully bring them a bit closer to other classes.

This^.

I've been saying for so long that radar range and duration needs nerfing (looking at  you wooster with radar mod). No radar over 10km and 20sec imo would do it.

[rufusflywheel]

20 hours ago, Soloun said:

So they gamble on losing the DD players, along with many of the rest of us in the hope that the new CV will increase population for CV's? That sounds pretty stupid.

I've seen vids showing that the DD population is fine, yet I hardly ever see them in game. Its bad enough as a cruiser with 4 CV's per match, as a DD, forget it.

Are the rest of us supposed to be the fodder for CV's? 

I hope many peeps at WGing lost their jobs who made these stupid decisions, unfortunately the idiots who decided to make these idiotic changes are probably still running things from their accounting software packages. 

OH you are so right they have totally ruined a great game, some guy wrote up above dd have a role to play strange how cv planes go straight for dds you could hide at the back and they still find you, the only good thing to come out of this game now  i keep my money in my pocket and it will stay there until they do something about the cvs, i also got attacked by three of my own ships for not going into cap when they stayed back or hide behind islands na not much fun anymore.

 

[tsuenwan]

WG can sell this consumable to DD, and  no AFK penalty applied when using it.

 

 

[Minimum_Chips]

I think it's all been said, but I'm totally unimpressed with playing DD's since the CV game change.  Once a plane detects you, it's pretty much game over, and with most players in CA's just hiding behind islands trying to damage farm, any assistance from their relatively good AA just doesn't happen.  Capping is virtually impossible until you get an average CV player - the good ones just set up over the cap regions - not to mention that having multiple CV's in the enemy side just makes it worse.  Getting a good result for you team is now virtually impossible - poor AA, radar ships with 8 - 12km range and squadrons of aircraft from multiple carriers has sucked the fun out of DDs.  In the real world, most plane attacks resulted in misses but in WOWs, every plane attack is a direct hit - whether your sailing to avoid or not.  Surely the fix is to spread the shots from planes attacking DD's instead of letting multiple raids wipe you out within 5 mins without firing a shot.

[greywolfsdb2013]

2 enemy CVs + Sonar Ships + Radar Ships + 1 DD per team = Death to Destroyers 

 

I guess there are no Russian equivalent to the words "Irrelevant" and "Frustrating" 

[sunlo2013]

Just had a game with 3x T8 CV per side, 2 kills a solo cap. I did make mistake trying to push the CV, being radar by Baltimore and die, but it is was a great fun. Full of actions.

My buddy in North Carolina end up with 109 plane kills and 4 ship kills two of them are CV, sadly there are no achievement for plane kills yet.

[Player_3356594408]

At tier 4, the DD population seems to be recovering. Also I'm finding it's not worth hunting Dds with planes because by the time I spot them, they are already too close to line up an attack run. 

I get that hiding has become harder as there are more planes in the air.  More carriers means more planes. But I nearly need to be hunting for a DD now to find them. Mostly I don't bother unless they are spotted by other ships.

Also, in the last week or so, I have found that as long as I keep moving and in particular, turn towards attacking planes, I don't get hit. The only times I really get badly hurt from the air is when I'm distracted. 

[tsuenwan]

33 minutes ago, Player_3356594408 said:

At tier 4, the DD population seems to be recovering. Also I'm finding it's not worth hunting Dds with planes because by the time I spot them, they are already too close to line up an attack run. 

I get that hiding has become harder as there are more planes in the air.  More carriers means more planes. But I nearly need to be hunting for a DD now to find them. Mostly I don't bother unless they are spotted by other ships.

Also, in the last week or so, I have found that as long as I keep moving and in particular, turn towards attacking planes, I don't get hit. The only times I really get badly hurt from the air is when I'm distracted. 

Low tier DD population was more steady than higher tier. as CV has less impact.

There was actually an increase in population immediately after the rework due to players move down tier also.  but overall just steady. and There isn't any low point to recovery from.

You may check the random population statistic here: http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/index.html

[Mechfori]

Population is not the key point, the OP's stance is right, DD role is pretty much taken away from them as spotting is pretty much CV's and then Radar ... any DD, especially at mid to low tier cannot get into their gun and torp range  to effective fire as they will be spotted long before they get there and focus fired, and speed / maneuverability is no match for shells, and now planes ; so the core game play element a DD suppose to had and that the player can play to are all taken away without compensation on its capability and features and without alternative allowed ... not to mention reward for role it need to and could play ( you do not get rewarded for smoking up for the BB, you do not get rewarded for stand and torp to deny enemy entries to Areas etc etc .. )

DD's role is not just dead, the game and game play pretty much exclude many of them from even performing their duty and the spec force them not to play or unable to ( they do not have 18KM gun range and only 3 of them had torp that go beyond 15KM and none are any good anyway )

In the end still ... DD are forced to stay within a formation to get any aircover and that force them out of range , and thus contribute nothing , their role , if WG intent it , is to go out spot, scout, screen, and snipe utilizing, stealth and speed, then the must be given those and allowed to perform utilizing those .. right now that is very much questionable at best and down right broken as  fact , not to mention the lack of any counter play regarding spotting ( Aerial, Radar, Hydro ), lack of any real AA and Stealth Radar ( staying behind island and just let Radar penetrate landmass ). BB cunter play by HP and Armor and Heal, Cruiser counter play by heavy enough return fire and sufficient armor to absorb and versatility to switch positions, CV flating just deal damage and take no pain, DD they got spotted, they will be focus fired an then they are at least 1/3 , 2/3 or even more HP gone or flat out got killed ... 

Its not just the role that are taken, but even their basic survival taken away .. so one cannot really say that DD play is OK at this moment. yes a good player can have good DD play and play out and sometime even fun ( I have a couple of fun DD game just yesterday ) but that is more exception than norm. The game should allow each and every type of ships and ships to be ale to play and play theirs and this is not the case now for DD & CL mostly ( try play a Soviet mid tier DD, you cannot even get near anywhere you can effectively fire at all ,  or try to get into range to launch torp in your IJN DD , how about those 12/10KM Radar all waiting )