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Rina_Pon

re: Four CV games, all tiers, all the time.

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Recently I'm looking at wall-to-wall four CV games in randoms, more-or-less independent of tier.

The stress is starting to show. My ability to carry a team is pretty much nil, and my WR is in the toilet.

The problem comes down to WG giving away RN CVs in the fly-strike-win event. There's now a large pool of CV players in the queue who are skilled enough, and in CVs powerful enough, to reliably hit enemy ships. These same players are not, however, skilled enough to protect the ships on their team that have weak AA.

For a ship like Kagero that relies on remaining undetected to maintain any kind of offensive capability, and with near zero AA, the situation is completely hopeless. You will get spotted the minute you take up any kind of attack position, and you will remain spotted, and focused by air attacks (misc.) for the remainder of your short time left in the battle, during which you will achieve nothing outside of distracting enemy CV attention away from your teammates.

An AA destroyer like Sims, on the other hand, is loads of fun. Wait for the planes, kite off, pop DFAA, and watch your troubles disappear. [premium consumables a must]

In AA cruisers like New Orleans, it's a bit of a mixed bag. I spent an entire game getting focused by the enemy CVs. Being spotted also meant spending the entire game dodging BB shells and generally dancing around doing nothing offensive. Shot down 39 planes, helped our team win as a result, but I wouldn't say it was a fun experience. For other cruisers it's just a random chance whether the enemy CV decide to focus you - or some other schmuck.

BBs have the easiest time of it, since the amount of dpm a typical CV can put into you isn't that significant, especially if you have decent AA, and being plane-spotted isn't such a big deal.

But we are still back to the bad old days where if your team happens to have the potato CV and the enemy team gets the unicum, then your team are going to be rolled and there is nothing any cruiser, battleship, or destroyer can do about it.

[sigh. rant over]

 

Edited by Rina_Pon

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9 hours ago, Rina_Pon said:

BBs have the easiest time of it, since the amount of dpm a typical CV can put into you isn't that significant, especially if you have decent AA, and being plane-spotted isn't such a big deal. 

No. have you ever been spawned unluckily without teammates near for AA blob and dodging volleys after volleys of planes plus enemy team snipes for more than 7 mins before dying without doing any damage? because it's a 4cv Tier X game? I'd rather be in a cruiser.

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All they need to do is reduce the speed of planes by 50%. Double travel time, less spotting, less damage potential, more exposure to AA. Easy Peezy 😂

 

*grabs helmet, jumps in foxhole*

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Just now, nevernude said:

All they need to do is reduce the speed of planes by 50%. Double travel time, less spotting, less damage potential, more exposure to AA. Easy Peezy 😂

 

 

wargamming won`t make as much money if that was done .. they need rubbles .. lots of them .. vodka costs money

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2 hours ago, nevernude said:

All they need to do is reduce the speed of planes by 50%. Double travel time, less spotting, less damage potential, more exposure to AA. Easy Peezy 😂

 

Plane speed is an effective (de-)tuning parameter, yes. Even a small reduction would drastically reduce CV effectiveness.

I'm not 100% sure we're there yet though in terms of need.

I'm hearing the term "AA buddy" being floated a lot recently. Maybe when everyone gets the memo about the multiplicative effects of AA, moving in groups will become second nature. That does actually seem to solve most of it.

I was in a Nagato last evening, T6-8 game. We'd lost our T6 CV, the enemy still had both of there's.  I saved our nearly-dead Shchors, and our chances of winning, by driving right up to him and launching my fighters. Before that I'd spent the whole game 2-3 km off the stern of our Alabama, for both the AA and main battery multiplication. So yeah, the "AA buddy system" is definitely a solid strategy. Exactly how solid I'm not positively sure.

Edited by Rina_Pon

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I thought I was imagining it, but you are quite right last night every game 4 cv's.

A lot of complaining in chat, not much fun being had, but what can you do?

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RN CV is hype in the town , what do you expect 😑.

Save yourself by buying WG shiny new premium that only cost an arm and a leg to protect yourself. The premium will guarantee your sanity through a tiny bit of your money but when we change ot we wont give your money back.

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My stance, stop playing my DD/CL ( ad might even CA and BB ) on mid to top tier , play operation, and then .... well WG wishing more CV player they can have it and even going to the extreme to give even more CV , even longer Radar reach etc etc  , its just that side effect is even less CL / DD Player ... no; premium ship is not the answer, tell me where is a premium DD that can stand the waves of aerial attack one after the other on top tier, on its own or at least with a small group ... no there's none. Most of us play for fun and if WG wishing to spoil it whether intentional or coincidental, its about time we just stop that playing ... They can have all those all CV vs every other surface ship games ... I just won't be in there ... why bother .... and in the mean time I will play my DD, my CL, my CA and some of my BB on low to mid tier ... Hey the V-25 is fun, Kongo still entertain, T6 / T7 operations are not that bad and generally they are stress free ( unless you got a bunch of noob but unfortunately it seems more than often ).

When and if I play DD mid to top tier and see 1, 2 or 3 CV on each team ( which usually coupled with 3 to 4 Radars , and some time more also ) ... then its about time I just sit back, relax, and enjoy the show cause that's what every surface ships do then ... am I even in range to fire my guns or use my torp .. of course not, am I doing the scouting, spotting and screening, of course not ... and that's what WG made the game to be ... yes I will got all the guns keep asking me to go ahead and do all that but then my answer would be, kill those Radar and then PUSH .. one only had right to ask others to risk theirs if they are risking their own

 

Edited by Mechfori

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Yeah that is spot on. Ive been playing and each day its been 9/10 games has 1-2 CVs and ive had to change my ship selection and do the same with picking all AA ships 90% of my games. I suggest we all do that. EVERYONE should spec AA and launch all AA ships out.

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23 hours ago, Rina_Pon said:

But we are still back to the bad old days where if your team happens to have the potato CV and the enemy team gets the unicum, then your team are going to be rolled and there is nothing any cruiser, battleship, or destroyer can do about it.

This is just not true at all.  The relative power of a good vs bad CV captain is now very similar to other classes.  This can be seen in the win rates of the best CV players - they are significantly lower than pre-rework.  Obviously the team with a great CV player will have a huge advantage, but so will any team with a great BB, CA/CL, and especially DD player.

23 hours ago, Rina_Pon said:

For a ship like Kagero that relies on remaining undetected to maintain any kind of offensive capability, and with near zero AA, the situation is completely hopeless.

This is also completely untrue.  You don't need AA to survive against CV's.  What you can do is make it so time consuming and annoying for the CV player to attack you that they either give up, or they spend so much time on you that your team gets a huge advantage through the enemy CV achieving very little.

Kagero in particular has a tiny air spotting range, and since RL was removed from CV's in 0.8.2 you're particularly difficult to find.  You need to make sure you're positioned aggressively but still able to return to friendly AA quickly.  It's also very important to make sure that when the enemy CV squadron passes you that you are not spotted while the CV is making the turn to come back and attack you.  Going full speed at an angle towards the CV squadron will limit the time the CV has to start the attack and often make it that an attack isn't possible, and the angled approach gives a sideways vector that makes aiming more difficult.  Smoke should be used when the CV drops a fighter squadron over you to spot.  Obviously continued focus from CV's will require a reposition closer to friendly AA - if a CV attacks you but is then forced to fly over a couple of friendly cruisers or BB's, they will most likely lose a heap of planes, and many CV captains won't even fly the attack.  CV play requires a constant management of resources, because in reality your 'infinite' planes are very limited in number, and it doesn't take many mistakes to massively hinder your effectiveness as a CV.

Basically the way you play the game has changed, there are now new ways to outplay the enemy, and there are new ways to get outplayed.  It's common accepted wisdom for DD's to not charge a cap early when the enemy radar ships are unspotted, and to maintain awareness of radar position and ranges.  It wasn't always this way though, the collective wisdom has taken time to filter down from the better players and be common knowledge.  This is the same with DD's vs CV's now.  You can be extremely successful in a poor AA DD in a CV game if you play it right, it's just that most people haven't worked out how to do that, and the meta is in flux because of it.  Rest assured though, if you are struggling with this, you can improve your play to a point that you are thoroughly in control of your own outcomes.

 

9 hours ago, nevernude said:

All they need to do is reduce the speed of planes by 50%. Double travel time, less spotting, less damage potential, more exposure to AA. Easy Peezy 😂

Good grief no.  CV's are reasonably well balanced, and plane speed is a key stat to the playability of these ships.  There is a reason why T4 CV's are awful in terms of both relative power and enjoyment of play, and it's not the lack of damage in the attacks, it's the incredibly slow plane speed. 

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26 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

 

Good grief no.  CV's are reasonably well balanced, and plane speed is a key stat to the playability of these ships.  There is a reason why T4 CV's are awful in terms of both relative power and enjoyment of play, and it's not the lack of damage in the attacks, it's the incredibly slow plane speed. 

Oh come on! I spent 5 seconds coming up with that idea, of course it's the way forward.for the global community!  😂

Edited by nevernude

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30 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

This is just not true at all.  The relative power of a good vs bad CV captain is now very similar to other classes.  This can be seen in the win rates of the best CV players - they are significantly lower than pre-rework.  Obviously the team with a great CV player will have a huge advantage, but so will any team with a great BB, CA/CL, and especially DD player.

This is complete bollocks in 90% of cases! A unicum cv player can attack anyone, anywhere on the map in VERY short order. Even the fasted DD cant do much about something at the other end of the map. Yeah a unicum DD, BB, CA/L will certainly help but nothing like a unicum CV player.

The "huge advantage" you mentioned means GG in most cases.

 

33 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

This is also completely untrue.  You don't need AA to survive against CV's.  What you can do is make it so time consuming and annoying for the CV player to attack you that they either give up, or they spend so much time on you that your team gets a huge advantage through the enemy CV achieving very little.

Kagero in particular has a tiny air spotting range, and since RL was removed from CV's in 0.8.2 you're particularly difficult to find.  You need to make sure you're positioned aggressively but still able to return to friendly AA quickly.  It's also very important to make sure that when the enemy CV squadron passes you that you are not spotted while the CV is making the turn to come back and attack you.  Going full speed at an angle towards the CV squadron will limit the time the CV has to start the attack and often make it that an attack isn't possible, and the angled approach gives a sideways vector that makes aiming more difficult.  Smoke should be used when the CV drops a fighter squadron over you to spot.  Obviously continued focus from CV's will require a reposition closer to friendly AA - if a CV attacks you but is then forced to fly over a couple of friendly cruisers or BB's, they will most likely lose a heap of planes, and many CV captains won't even fly the attack.  CV play requires a constant management of resources, because in reality your 'infinite' planes are very limited in number, and it doesn't take many mistakes to massively hinder your effectiveness as a CV.

Basically the way you play the game has changed, there are now new ways to outplay the enemy, and there are new ways to get outplayed.  It's common accepted wisdom for DD's to not charge a cap early when the enemy radar ships are unspotted, and to maintain awareness of radar position and ranges.  It wasn't always this way though, the collective wisdom has taken time to filter down from the better players and be common knowledge.  This is the same with DD's vs CV's now.  You can be extremely successful in a poor AA DD in a CV game if you play it right, it's just that most people haven't worked out how to do that, and the meta is in flux because of it.  Rest assured though, if you are struggling with this, you can improve your play to a point that you are thoroughly in control of your own outcomes.

 

What you are describing here makes playing DD so tedious it isnt any fun whatsoever. A Midway DB only needs to spot you for a split second and its GG for you even if you are close to your friendly AA bubble. By the time your friendly AA cuts his planes down its too late for you even if the CV only lands one bomb it means half your HP is gone.

Honestly top tier DD gameplay is no better with the current CV's than it was with the RTS system. The only difference is with RTS you hardly saw a T10 CV, now there are CV'' almost every game!

Are you paid by WG to promote CV's or something?

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25 minutes ago, nevernude said:

Oh come on! I spent 5 seconds coming up with that idea, of course it's the way forward.for the global community!  😂

Your response is 'I didn't put any thought into my comment'?!  Well that's refreshingly honest I guess.

 

16 minutes ago, dieselhead said:

What you are describing here makes playing DD so tedious it isnt any fun whatsoever. A Midway DB only needs to spot you for a split second and its GG for you even if you are close to your friendly AA bubble. By the time your friendly AA cuts his planes down its too late for you even if the CV only lands one bomb it means half your HP is gone.

Honestly top tier DD gameplay is no better with the current CV's than it was with the RTS system. The only difference is with RTS you hardly saw a T10 CV, now there are CV'' almost every game!

Are you paid by WG to promote CV's or something?

Well there's an awful lot to unpack here.  Firstly, I think it's extremely fun to learn how to successfully outplay CV's in my DD's.  Sometimes I get outplayed as well, and that provides me with both motivation and valuable information - these are things I can use to improve my play.  Secondly, a Midway spotting you, while having DB's as the selected plane type, and then getting off a successful attack while you are maneuvering correctly, while you are next to friendly AA, is something that is highly unlikely, and will more than likely cost the Midway a heap of their most valuable planes for a little bit of damage.  We all have a tendency to remember the negative outcomes while forgetting the positive - it requires active awareness of this and a desire not to be influenced by it to attempt to minimise this effect.  Also, one Midway bomb does not do half your HP, that is pure hyperbole, it does 15-20% of your HP depending on which DD you are in (still a lot, but you actually decrease the strength of your argument by using the hyperbole, as people are less likely to take you seriously).

You obviously don't remember what RTS gameplay was like as a DD, or you've got your rose-coloured glasses on.

I like your questioning of my motivations.  Basically you're saying 'I don't enjoy this, so no one else could possibly enjoy it, so therefore there must be some other motivation for someone to actually say something positive'.  Perhaps there more to the game than you realise?  We can only create our reality out to the limits of our understanding.  Increase your understanding, and redefine your reality.

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2 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

Your response is 'I didn't put any thought into my comment'?!  Well that's refreshingly honest I guess.

 

It's called a joke 😉

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27 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

Your response is 'I didn't put any thought into my comment'?!  Well that's refreshingly honest I guess.

 

Well there's an awful lot to unpack here.  Firstly, I think it's extremely fun to learn how to successfully outplay CV's in my DD's.  Sometimes I get outplayed as well, and that provides me with both motivation and valuable information - these are things I can use to improve my play.  Secondly, a Midway spotting you, while having DB's as the selected plane type, and then getting off a successful attack while you are maneuvering correctly, while you are next to friendly AA, is something that is highly unlikely, and will more than likely cost the Midway a heap of their most valuable planes for a little bit of damage.  We all have a tendency to remember the negative outcomes while forgetting the positive - it requires active awareness of this and a desire not to be influenced by it to attempt to minimise this effect.  Also, one Midway bomb does not do half your HP, that is pure hyperbole, it does 15-20% of your HP depending on which DD you are in (still a lot, but you actually decrease the strength of your argument by using the hyperbole, as people are less likely to take you seriously).

You obviously don't remember what RTS gameplay was like as a DD, or you've got your rose-coloured glasses on.

I like your questioning of my motivations.  Basically you're saying 'I don't enjoy this, so no one else could possibly enjoy it, so therefore there must be some other motivation for someone to actually say something positive'.  Perhaps there more to the game than you realise?  We can only create our reality out to the limits of our understanding.  Increase your understanding, and redefine your reality.

I felt the same, new CV created new challenges for me even when I play other classes. They are powerful if used correctly, no doubt about it. They cause a lot of problem for general population, so people complain about it, and I can understand. Personally, I think it improves the game and much better than old CV.

I had been tell people many time in this forum that I enjoy playing against CV, and one can certainly play aggressively in CV game. If you understand CV's rhythm and mechanic. Seem someone still thought I am not genuine and have other agenda.

Edited by sunlo2013

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