Rant thread about RN tech tree ships - It's time to STOP

[Paladinum]

What the heck.

Why, in the name of Poseidon, should those ships have so many gimmicks in them?

Why Royal Navy ships in particular?

RN tech tree ships are overflown with gimmicks. "Gimmick" has many definitions and ways to understand it. I take it to mean "any modification/addition/removal that makes something widely different than the average", or "non-standard amongst peers". Mostly "traits" that one/two lines have but the rest don't. 

Let me compare RN tech tree lines to their closest counterparts from other nations. Count the things they have compare to the things the other lines have.

I do not say that some gimmicks are not justified, for example, all RN ships should have Heal. And maybe short-fused AP. But the combination of 1/4 HE pen and short-fused AP is unacceptable.

 

German BBs vs RN BBs

	1/4 HE pen	Hydro	Super Heal	Short-fused AP	HE w/ high fire chance
German BBs	Yes	Yes			Yes
RN BBs	Yes		Yes	Yes	Yes

 

 

 

 

What are excessive: either 1/4 HE pen or Short-fused AP, NOT both. Super Heal, good to have.

 

US CLs vs RN CLs

	HE	Early Heal	Smoke	Super Heal	Short-fused AP	Radar	DAAF	Hydro/ Radar/ DAAF the same time
US CLs	Yes					Yes	Yes	Yes
RN CLs		Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes

What are excessive: Smoke. They can have 1/6 pen HE and short-fused AP but no smoke. If smoke, no gimmicked shells. 

 

KM DDs vs RN DDs

		Short-fused AP	Highly -gimmicked Smoke	Speed Boost	Heal	Hydro	Single-launch torps
German DDs				Yes		Yes
RN DDs		Yes	Yes		Yes	Yes	Yes

What are excessive: THE SHELLS! IT IS ALWAYS THE SHELLS!!!

 

Let me share something else too:

Warspite and Queen Elizabeth HE shells. Their names are different by a meager * and their damage are different by 1000 point (Warspite 5300, Queen E 6300).

And someone tell me how the heck Conqueror has better concealment than Hindenburg, HIV and Moskva despite being bigger and has more gun range? 

WG Please.

 

The other issue I have with WG when it comes to RN ships is the questionable tiering of some of the tech tree ships.

 

The biggest offender in the "This RN ship doesn't belong to this tier" is King George V.

Historical facts:

+ Designed to be excellently protected with good armament.

+ Went toe-to-toe against Bismarck.

+ Duke of York stomped on Scharnhorst.

In-game counterpart facts:

+ Tier 7, same tier with Scharnhorst (the ship Duke of York stomped), 1 tier lower than Bismarck (the ship Prince of Wales and King George V went toe-to-toe against).

+ Has the 3rd highest HP Pool of all T7 BBs.

+ To top it all off, 25s reload, fastest reload out of all T7 BBs for similar gun sizes (from 320 to 381). Scharnhorst's guns are ~3 inches smaller.

WG please.

 

In-game Duke of York should have been the tech tree King George V. Standard reload and no Spotter to increase gun range. That ship is more balanced for her tier than King George V in the tech tree.

The most screwed-up thing is how WG put 2 ships with the exact same hull, same gun range, same speed at two different tiers. I was like, what the heck? How was that decision even approved? Those are BBs, not DDs, FFS.

If King George V is T8, Monarch could easily be the Hull B. Remember that Monarch, Lion and Conqueror all have the lowest HP pool of tech tree BBs of their tiers. If a T8 KGV exists, why would it even be an issue?

 

Then we have the Emerald. Why is that a T5? Where is Arethusa?

Emerald: 6-gun broadside with Smoke.

Omaha: 7-gun broadside, same reload, better range.

Furutaka: 6-203 gun broadside with high speed and long-range torps.

Konigsberg: 9-gun broadside, same reload and long gun range. 

Kirov: 9-180 gun broadside, worse reload but long gun range and high speed.

Emile Bertin: 9-gun broadside, worse reload and but very high speed.

 

Where is Arethusa? Huanghe, Pan-Asian ship. I can see how desperate WG were when they shove TRB into Huanghe to justify putting her into T6.

WG please.

[Lowyat]

26 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

The biggest offender in the "This RN ship doesn't belong to this tier" is King George V.

Balans. Originally tiered at 8, but didn't performed well for that during testing i think.

[humusz]

the reason KGV is there is because the gun balans lol. 14inch is undergunned at T8, though HE spam makes it moot somewhat

i think WG mention it before.

the AP performence were meh on test,  T10 cruiser shrug  KGV 14 inch ap like nothin - 

[Paladinum]

13 minutes ago, Lowyat said:

Balans. Originally tiered at 8, but didn't performed well for that during testing i think.

 

11 minutes ago, humusz said:

the reason KGV is there is because the gun balans lol. 14inch is undergunned at T8, though HE spam makes it moot somewhat

 

THEN DON'T GIVE THAT THING 25S RELOAD! 41% chance of causing fire too! 

Again, IF Monarch is the Hull B with 15" guns then what would be the problem with putting KGV in T8? People are going to use HE anyway!

[humusz]

2 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

THEN DON'T GIVE THAT THING 25S RELOAD! 41% chance of causing fire too! 

Again, IF Monarch is the Hull B with 15" guns then what would be the problem with putting KGV in T8? People are going to use HE anyway!

Haha, idk about fires

but consider this.

Fusou have 12 - 14inch Gun with 29s reload (?) at T6

[Akyamarukh]

Your thread is useless......

Why ?

 

Because French DD say Hi

And WG wont bother to give it smoke

 

_______________

Gimmick is actually fine, but stupid gimmick is another wrong. Everyone must be agree that conkek concealment is total bullsheet.

The fact that RN navy dont have HE is because at early version, Neptune and memetaur smax on anything. So on order to balance smoke and heal, they remove its HE. Belfast and Kutozov is the primary example how OP is smoking HE Cruiser.

 

___________________

RN tech tree gimmick is more better than French.....

Reload booster On DD?? In exchange with smoke? Atleast Kebab got repair party option

 

French BB have superb secondary for brawl.... Republique have turtleback... Yet silly 32mm all around armor covering it. Easily smacked by HE spammer. What is the purpose?

 

Their Cruiser is even more weird, basically have no weakness. But very mediocre in feature. 

 

Just now, humusz said:

Haha, idk about fires

but consider this.

Fusou have 12 - 14inch Gun with 29s reload (?) at T6

16 gun gun and AA with fast food i mean fast speed and manuverability say Hi 

Basically have no weakness.....

[yansuki]

36 minutes ago, Akyamarukh said:

French BB have superb secondary for brawl.... Republique have turtleback... Yet silly 32mm all around armor covering it. Easily smacked by HE spammer. What is the purpose?

RN tier IX and X should have the French armor. since they got superheal that easily mitigate HE damage.

[Moggytwo]

Short fuse AP is crap, especially for BB's.  Look how much better the Hood is since they changed it's AP from short fuse to normal.

Also, RN DD's have standard 1/6 HE pen, not 1/4.  That's why the T9 and 10 need IFHE to pen DD's with their 113mm guns.

[Onlinegamer]

gentleman? would you like having a cup of tea?

[Paladinum]

9 hours ago, humusz said:

 

Fusou have 12 - 14inch Gun with 29s reload (?) at T6

28s reload with ridiculous gun range for her tier (Kongo as well).

 

8 hours ago, yansuki said:

RN tier IX and X should have the French armor. since they got superheal that easily mitigate HE damage.

Then, by the holy nuts of RNGesus, no shell gimmick (1/4 HE pen, ridiculous fire chance, short-fused AP). I'm serious. That garbage needs to stop.

 

8 hours ago, Moggytwo said:

Short fuse AP is crap, especially for BB's.  Look how much better the Hood is since they changed it's AP from short fuse to normal.

Also, RN DD's have standard 1/6 HE pen, not 1/4.  That's why the T9 and 10 need IFHE to pen DD's with their 113mm guns.

Short-fused AP cannot citadel at range. They were good at shooting at DDs but since all DDs will take overpen damage from BB APs anyway, even more useless.

Also, you're right on the 1/4 HE pen. Edited the OP.

[Paladinum]

9 hours ago, humusz said:

 

the AP performence were meh on test,  T10 cruiser shrug  KGV 14 inch ap like nothin - 

One of the reasons may be BECAUSE THE APs ARE SHORT-FUSED!!!

There is a 381 mm BB at Tier 10 NOW, you know. 

[Grygus_Triss]

Good morning Paladinum.

Business as usual I see.

[Paladinum]

17 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

Good morning Paladinum.

Business as usual I see.

Good day to you too captain.

[Ordrazz]

this is the line that started all these bloody gimmicks on ships...... 

now every new ship / line HAS to have gimmick...

[RalphTheTheatreCat]

I suppose at least its not a CV rant thread.

[Moggytwo]

2 hours ago, Paladinum said:

There is a 381 mm BB at Tier 10 NOW, you know.

...and it's the absolute best T10 BB as well!  Such a good ship, although quite OP.

[dejiko_nyo]

Gimmicks is a thing because they cannot find a way to make each line "unique". Whatever the gimmick, at the end of the day, the end result is same: stay, fight or flee.

[Paladinum]

54 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

Gimmicks is a thing because they cannot find a way to make each line "unique". Whatever the gimmick, at the end of the day, the end result is same: stay, fight or flee.

I don't mind gimmicky ship lines, what I am furious about is the excessive amount of gimmicks RN ships have. PA DDs look standard in comparison.

[PbKavarovsky]

I am currently at Tier IX Lion and Tier X Minotaur, and I have to say I did not enjoy Lion as much as I had with other Tier IX battleships I have played (either in PTS or Asia server). The dispersion at long range is bad, while getting up close, the armor is unforgiving (you can't really brawl like a German BB), especially when a Yamato/Musashi goes into your face, angling does not matter.

So are KGV and Monarch (for the dispersion and armor), I used to use spotting aircraft in the KGV to spam HE long-range to avoid being plebed with 380 AP, maybe I'm doing it wrong, but setting fire is all about RNG, you either set none, or you set two at once, then of course your enemy instantly repaired it, and RNGesus decides that you don't get a follow up.

For the Minotaur, I can reassure you any battleship AP shells manage to reach you from any angle when you are out of your smoke means at least 10K of your health gone, though Minotaur is designed to be on-par with Worcester, the armor is not even close. Angling does not matter either, it is really squishy.

[dejiko_nyo]

Minotaurs are designed to be in two states: Instadeleted or alive. Apparently RN BBs are supposed to be played like 'Burn them all" except conqueror does have punishing AP that people seldom use.

RN CA design philosophy was probably influenced by Belfast. Either the "too squishy must have smoke" or "has smoke must be squishy" design philosophy. But honestly right now, the ship balances are so screwed I stopped really caring. For me, I would concentrate on the little things (ie, game balances/fixes/modes) to improve the game and mess things up rather than keep on introducing new content that breaks the balancing even more.

[PbKavarovsky]

2 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

Minotaurs are designed to be in two states: Instadeleted or alive. Apparently RN BBs are supposed to be played like 'Burn them all" except conqueror does have punishing AP that people seldom use.

RN CA design philosophy was probably influenced by Belfast. Either the "too squishy must have smoke" or "has smoke must be squishy" design philosophy. But honestly right now, the ship balances are so screwed I stopped really caring. For me, I would concentrate on the little things (ie, game balances/fixes/modes) to improve the game and mess things up rather than keep on introducing new content that breaks the balancing even more.

Sometimes I do pay tribute to players who does well in radar Minotaur, but in my humble opinion sacrificing my life early for an enemy DD is not worth it. After all, Minotaur spamming from smoke can rip down an enemy battleship real quick (if they commit).

[humusz]

6 hours ago, Paladinum said:

One of the reasons may be BECAUSE THE APs ARE SHORT-FUSED!!!

There is a 381 mm BB at Tier 10 NOW, you know. 

381mm have no problem penetrating 25mm armor. common cruiser armor at its tier

and those 381mm were all high velocity gun too

also in Real life those gun lack penetrating power, esp compared to US 16inch of NC that have almost 50% higher penetration overall. maybe its because while having same line of thinking with american in low velocity-heavier shell, the 14inch gun lack the mass to retain energy - so it bleed momentum faster

the gun might claimed as one of the most succesfull gun in war, due to claiming 2 prestigius german battleship. but those kill was kinda missmatched. scarnhorst was basicly 13 vs 1. while bismarck cant even fight efectifly due to rudder damage and then got gang bangged onesidedly lol

[Moggytwo]

1 hour ago, Paladinum said:

I don't mind gimmicky ship lines, what I am furious about is the excessive amount of gimmicks RN ships have. PA DDs look standard in comparison.

I'm not sure how you could get so worked up about having differences in ship lines.  The RN DD's are one of the best additions to the game ever.

Incidentally, you forgot that RN DD's have extremely good acceleration, and also all DD's have the same AP fuse timer - 0.010s.

[Paladinum]

8 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

I'm not sure how you could get so worked up about having differences in ship lines

 

1 hour ago, Paladinum said:

I don't mind gimmicky ship lines, what I am furious about is the excessive amount of gimmicks RN ships have.

 

[Moggytwo]

I understand that you think they have a lot of gimmicks, but so long as they are fun to play and work in the game well, who cares?  The 'gimmicks' are just unique traits that create the play style that many people enjoy with these ships.