So what was the point.

[au_JIMMY_HOFFA]

So War gaming made changes to CV play Because Skilled players had to much influence of the outcome of a battle.  Well your data must be telling you the same thing is happening.  You also made changes to get more cvs in game and your data will show you have done that, but at what cost.

Why do we still have to put up with playing beta cv play?

Offer us something that has no cv play while you take on your cv balance efforts.  Like the ranked we all enjoyed.

Also real life cv could not spot in bad weather, lets get some random clouds in game.

 

[spixys]

WoT players : "Remove arty from the game"

WoWs players : "Remove CV from the game"

- Artileries are still in game after it's 9th year, that even some CC had made an April fools joke about it.

Perhaps you might be able to review the outcome of your "suggestion".

Finally, don't like the current meta? Stay away from the game then? Perhaps the eventually a population drop might make them rethink why it happened.

 

 

P.S. there is a 50% chance of eating my own word

[Grygus_Triss]

3 hours ago, hiefsy said:

Also real life cv could not spot in bad weather, lets get some random clouds in game.

I like this idea.

Surface ships could use clouds to hide from planes.

Wait... that means that planes could use clouds to hide from AA and sneak up and hit without taking much damage.

I take it back, I don't like this idea.

[dejiko_nyo]

2 hours ago, Grygus_Triss said:

I like this idea.

Surface ships could use clouds to hide from planes.

Wait... that means that planes could use clouds to hide from AA and sneak up and hit without taking much damage.

I take it back, I don't like this idea.

Hehehe. Newton's third law: Every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction.

But basically, how I see it being implemented will be a concealment bonus to either side just like the current storm mechanics.

 

[Grygus_Triss]

1 hour ago, dejiko_nyo said:

Hehehe. Newton's third law: Every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction.

But basically, how I see it being implemented will be a concealment bonus to either side just like the current storm mechanics.

 

I see it similar to current smokescreen mechanics. While it will hide planes in it, the bigger effect is it will block LOS even if behind the clouds, not in them. Except it will only work for  air to surface interactions.

Which is fine, until you get surface spotted by an enemy surface ship, and an enemy squadron uses the clouds to get point blank to you without getting shot by AA...

[Ordrazz]

4 hours ago, Grygus_Triss said:

I like this idea.

Surface ships could use clouds to hide from planes.

Wait... that means that planes could use clouds to hide from AA and sneak up and hit without taking much damage. 

I take it back, I don't like this idea.

 

I seriously doubt that clouds would suppress AA bullets from whizzing through them, & if a plane were to try & hide in a cloud, that means the plane would have to stop its engine to stay hidden, & ummmm...... what would happen to a plane if it stopped its engine in the air?

 

 

[dejiko_nyo]

4 minutes ago, Ordrazz said:

what would happen to a plane if it stopped its engine in the air?

 

 

BANZAI!!!

"Unpowered guided projectile."

[humusz]

8 hours ago, hiefsy said:

Also real life cv could not spot in bad weather, lets get some random clouds in game.

Real aircraft can see further too you know -.-

thats why aircraft is best Search and Rescue tool there is

stop nitpicking by claiming "real life" things

 

and they can spot torpedo from air too, in one event at Battle of Philiphines sea. an IJN Pilot named Sakio Komatsu, spot 6 Torpedo headed for IJN carrier Taiho by submarin USS Albacore.

he self sacrifice and crashed into 1 of them. the 4 other the torpedo was missed, but 1 managed to hit Taiho despite his bravery.

[legionary2099]

1 hour ago, Ordrazz said:

 

I seriously doubt that clouds would suppress AA bullets from whizzing through them, & if a plane were to try & hide in a cloud, that means the plane would have to stop its engine to stay hidden, & ummmm...... what would happen to a plane if it stopped its engine in the air?

 

 

Planes DO NOT HIDE IN CLOUDS ever.The thicker and larger the cloud , the more dangerous it is. Aviation major here. What you say is serious misconception. Clouds are serious threats to airplanes be it modern or archaic like WW2 stuffs.

Very very few jets are designed to take a dent in the cloud and avoiding it is altogether safer. You either fly too high to be hit effectively , or too low to avoid radio detection.

First , clouds hinder your visibility , second , it will make electronics act up , third , good old wind phenomena can kill even the best planes out there currently. Where there is cloud , there is a mess of windflows.

Real aircrafts have trouble spotting visible objects in daylight condition above a certain speed and height setting , during scout mission , planes do not go at max speed and make several pass before a positive identification can be made. Ships are large , but when viewed from the air , the are very small. Planes can see further away than ship due to their mobility , it is not exactly that their vision is good. Vision heavily depend on the weather , there are cases where planes are $#Q@% because metar condition are so poor that positive ident is impossible. The faster you fly , the more tunnel vision you get , just like driving a car at 100 mph.

AA in WW2 are not fully computerized and radar guided, targets need to be manually or hydraulic trained to hit their targets using observation post to feed aiming information. Observation post can be beaten if visibility is poor or there is a weather phenomena in the vicinity.

RADAR in WW2 are PRIMARY RADAR , they give you track of the aircraft in the form of a dot on the screen. They do not give you altitude , type , airspeed or any other indicators. You will need eye observation and good old maths to calculate those. Foul weather will return false positive , ghost signals , and haywire on the screen.

[humusz]

1 hour ago, legionary2099 said:

 

Real aircrafts have trouble spotting visible objects in daylight condition above a certain speed and height setting , during scout mission , planes do not go at max speed and make several pass before a positive identification can be made. Ships are large , but when viewed from the air , the are very small. Planes can see further away than ship due to their mobility , it is not exactly that their vision is good. Vision heavily depend on the weather , there are cases where planes are $#Q@% because metar condition are so poor that positive ident is impossible. The faster you fly , the more tunnel vision you get , just like driving a car at 100 mph.

 

Planes dont have trouble spotting vessel or object from skies. but they have trouble Identifying the object of interest from air.

they need to check is it friendly or not, this especialy true for hard to identify ground target like tanks or infantry. pilot can spot troops concentration or vehicle on open terrain from above, but identifying it was hard.  the shilluete of ship in open ocean is easy to spot but wheather its USN DD and IJN DD, you need to take a look at closer or circle around from diffrent angle to make sure. thats why in warmovies you often see flares being used to mark which one is the position of enemy infantry.

when Repulse and Prince of walles was attacked, the Japanese pilot was able to track the convoy from 60km away, but they need to circle it 4 times and make low level pass before confirming its the target (one of them see the union jack). that because There 2 other IJN battlecruiser in the Area. and according to those pilot the Shiluete of Repulse from the air was similiar to the Kongos. and commiting fratricide is the greatest sin you can commit on military service

[dejiko_nyo]

Anyone who has flown commercially should know how it feels like when a plane flies into a cloud bank. Now, lighten that plane a lot, make it slower and ask yourself: it is going to be tossed arround like a leaf in the wind!

[sunlo2013]

I love how this turn into aviation knowledge thread as well as history lesson. 

[legionary2099]

4 hours ago, dejiko_nyo said:

Anyone who has flown commercially should know how it feels like when a plane flies into a cloud bank. Now, lighten that plane a lot, make it slower and ask yourself: it is going to be tossed arround like a leaf in the wind!

Fighters are designed to be inherently unstable and they have much tougher frames compare to commercial planes which favour stability. They can recover from more position than airliners who are doomed if they have to do a barrel roll.

Fighters are better at surviving moving through clouds , but pilots never want to take their chances , especially with explosives ordinance onboard. Just because maybe you can do it doesn't mean you should.

Commercial aircrafts do have weather radar nowadays , so they are much better at avoiding crappy weather than fighters.

A commercial aircrafts would be playing with fire if he intend to breakthrough clouds. Note that rough ride due to wind is normal and shouldn't be anything major.But charging through the cloud is usually a do or die decision.

Spotting in the sea is fairly hard , because of orientation issue. Do note that on open sea , there is no notable landmark to set distance.

Most pilot have to do dead reckoning which have a huge error margin. Sure you see it , but what's its relative position to your own ship ? You must calculate that to have a spotting. With dead reckoning by hands , errors are in a 10 - 20 miles radius. And thats freaking huge. You cant just say 10 minutes flying on bearing from your ship and call it spotted , as all 3 elements are constantly moving.

[au_JIMMY_HOFFA]

Well, this turned out differently to what i expected.  i was just putting an option in for a game that could help with the spotting and adding another layer to have to think about.  I feel the meta now has bought a drained feeling to the game.  I don't play random now as space battles gives me an out from playing with CVs, Pilots are getting better skilled and now have too much influence on the outcome of a battle.  Lemming trains are boring, being spotted and half your ships xp gone in the first 90 seconds is draining.  Someone has to come up with better answers to balance for everyone.  Playing warships atm with balance going one way then then other then the other is frustrating.  We have given enough time for this to balance, now take it outside and give us our great game back until l you have sorted it out please.

[au_JIMMY_HOFFA]

go to the end, planes cant see whats under the cloulds

 

 

[dejiko_nyo]

Lemming trains are a result of a collective similiar mindset that do not care to adapt to the situation on hand. Rather they prefer to preserve their fragile existence a little longer than take a risk to win. It is a sign of lack of teamwork and more of "everyone for themselves". It may be more pronounced now, but the concept of huddling together far away from action has always been prevalent on the server. I do not expect it to change unless the scoring system is reworked to penalise people who do not contribute to teamwork while making support actions on par with direct damage.

[Moggytwo]

18 hours ago, legionary2099 said:

Very very few jets are designed to take a dent in the cloud and avoiding it is altogether safer.

 

12 hours ago, legionary2099 said:

A commercial aircrafts would be playing with fire if he intend to breakthrough clouds. Note that rough ride due to wind is normal and shouldn't be anything major.But charging through the cloud is usually a do or die decision.

What are you talking about?  Planes fly through clouds all the time, that's why they have IFR.  Obviously you have to avoid the thunderstorms, but they aren't very common, and other clouds are just fine.  Modern large IFR aircraft only need to see the runway at the last moment to land (technically they don't even need to see the runway at all, it's only a legal requirement), and can be in cloud for the whole rest of the flight if that is what the weather is.

If you're talking about military aircraft during WW2, then they were also perfectly capable of flying through cloud for extended periods, however, if there were thunderstorms in the area they may not realise they are approaching one, and this could cause an issue.  Once again, they would have a good idea of the weather before they left, so they'd hopefully know if there was a chance of dangerous weather on their route, and this would impact their decision making on entering IFR conditions.

 

12 hours ago, legionary2099 said:

They can recover from more position than airliners who are doomed if they have to do a barrel roll.

All aircraft, including airliners, can do a barrel roll, since if you fly it correctly you maintain +1G throughout the entire maneuvre.  Now the automation on some modern airliners will prevent you from doing it, but the aircraft are perfectly capable of it.

[legionary2099]

22 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

 

What are you talking about?  Planes fly through clouds all the time, that's why they have IFR.  Obviously you have to avoid the thunderstorms, but they aren't very common, and other clouds are just fine.  Modern large IFR aircraft only need to see the runway at the last moment to land (technically they don't even need to see the runway at all, it's only a legal requirement), and can be in cloud for the whole rest of the flight if that is what the weather is.

If you're talking about military aircraft during WW2, then they were also perfectly capable of flying through cloud for extended periods, however, if there were thunderstorms in the area they may not realise they are approaching one, and this could cause an issue.  Once again, they would have a good idea of the weather before they left, so they'd hopefully know if there was a chance of dangerous weather on their route, and this would impact their decision making on entering IFR conditions.

 

All aircraft, including airliners, can do a barrel roll, since if you fly it correctly you maintain +1G throughout the entire maneuvre.  Now the automation on some modern airliners will prevent you from doing it, but the aircraft are perfectly capable of it.

As i've said , even if you are capable of it it doesnt mean you should. Commercial planes shown off in airshows are not flying real load but empty load , which affect center of gravity. A plane under full or partial load will have difficulty to make sharp and spiky turns, not even barrel roll , though passengers will rip you off with complaints if you do. Commercial aircraft are stable by design , any significant shift of balance risk stalling which will prove fatal under load.

IFR is flying using instruments , but that doesn't mean instruments are protected against weather phenomena. Flying through cloud will mess up altimeters and sensor array.

A blocked sensor can make the plane automation do stupid stuffs nonody want and make measurements inaccurate. Ever heard of a plane crash because a sensor was blocked ? 737 MAX 8 tragedies are just one of the many that may result from a blocked sensor.

Thunderclouds ( CB ) are just one type of cloud , there are a lot of clouds that are dangerous to fly operation , not just CB though it is the most obvious. And with weather radar , it is better off avoiding them.

Clouds with strong electro magnetic or have dense water properties will also be big trouble for aircrafts.

In a METAR , you will see layers of clouds reported so that  pilots  avoid them, there is no need to risk anything. A plane may seem to charge into the cloud when you see through the passenger seat, but reality is that you are either below or above it slightly.

You tell me any pilots who risk flying into clouds where they can avoid it and i'll make sure to put him under retraining for risking people life. Its no joke. Airliners and aviation authority have strict protocols that will heavily fine and require mandatory retraining if pilots still do such risky moves.

[blauflamme22]

As a pilot I can say if you've ever accidentally flown, or worse been dragged into a CB in a light aircraft you'll know how damn scary clouds can be. the airflows in one of those will drag you up thousands of feet then you'll get to the opposite flow (if you aren't already upside-down and somehow flying in the complete opposite direction) and you'll get sent rocketing towards the ground whether you're in a full powered climb or not. So I think it sounds like a great idea for WG to just add some of them during the cyclone/storm feature. One minute you see the flight of dive bombers heading towards you then you see them disappear into cloud and then only half the flight comes out and they're all beat up and your AA finishes them off before they get close.

[humusz]

2 minutes ago, blauflamme22 said:

As a pilot I can say if you've ever accidentally flown, or worse been dragged into a CB in a light aircraft you'll know how damn scary clouds can be. the airflows in one of those will drag you up thousands of feet then you'll get to the opposite flow (if you aren't already upside-down and somehow flying in the complete opposite direction) and you'll get sent rocketing towards the ground whether you're in a full powered climb or not. So I think it sounds like a great idea for WG to just add some of them during the cyclone/storm feature. One minute you see the flight of dive bombers heading towards you then you see them disappear into cloud and then only half the flight comes out and they're all beat up and your AA finishes them off before they get close.

Its like mosquito in refrigerator, as one of trainer put it.

[Moggytwo]

16 minutes ago, legionary2099 said:

Commercial planes shown off in airshows are not flying real load but empty load , which affect center of gravity.

I'm not sure why you're bringing up airshows.  Airliners don't maneuvre more than a medium turn in normal operation, but that's irrelevant to what you said, which is that airliners are doomed if they do a barrel roll.  This maneuvre is particularly known for the fact that any aircraft can do it safely since you maintain 1G throughout the roll, unlike say an aileron roll where there is minimal elevator input.

As for clouds, there's no reason to stay at an altitude where there is a layer of clouds when you can be at one where there isn't cloud, but there wouldn't actually be an issue with it for most clouds.  Aircraft climb and descend through complete cloud layers as a routine part of their flight if they're flying IFR, and it is not in the slightest bit unsafe.  You were suggesting that flying through any cloud is dangerous, which is clearly absurd.

[legionary2099]

45 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

I'm not sure why you're bringing up airshows.  Airliners don't maneuvre more than a medium turn in normal operation, but that's irrelevant to what you said, which is that airliners are doomed if they do a barrel roll.  This maneuvre is particularly known for the fact that any aircraft can do it safely since you maintain 1G throughout the roll, unlike say an aileron roll where there is minimal elevator input.

As for clouds, there's no reason to stay at an altitude where there is a layer of clouds when you can be at one where there isn't cloud, but there wouldn't actually be an issue with it for most clouds.  Aircraft climb and descend through complete cloud layers as a routine part of their flight if they're flying IFR, and it is not in the slightest bit unsafe.  You were suggesting that flying through any cloud is dangerous, which is clearly absurd.

During training as ATC , i was taught never to let an aircraft charge through a cloud. And that's what it is , descending and climbing instruction WILL NOT BE made if the aircraft have to go through thick cloud layers. It is at the pilot own discretion. What that means is that the risk he take is up to him to determine. Viet Nam ATC do not condone nor accept commands for aircraft to play with fire like that for safety reason.

And yes , aircrafts cannot perform barrel roll in normal operations , because they are flying full load , unlike aircraft capability demonstration show , which the aircraft is flying at empty load.

Balancing 1G is not probable in most cases , as there are wind and center of gravity to take into account. Once you shift lift from one wing to roll , the center of gravity will point the nose up or down depending on the load in the tail or the nose section. Aircrafts with heavier engines cannot maintaining neutral center of gravity during enroute. It is usually computer compensated. 

There are fewer cloud types that are safe then there are clouds that are dangerous. To me as an ATC , not going through them is all the better , heck if a dangerous type suddenly show up there won't be time to get out of the way. Pilots descending through clouds are normal because they spend a very short amount of time doing it. It is usually less than 1 - 2 minutes to pass 1000 ft clearance. But asking the pilot to maintain FL through cloud is absurd and will get ATC in huge trouble , the pilot will likely file a report. The trouble is only partly with visibility , but  more importantly with dependance on onboard flying instruments. 

No weather forecast can attest that the plane is 100% safe through reports , some random craps can get undone by the wildest things possible. Like a bee that block the altimeter. That's why we move to the safe side , not risking the unknown.

[Moggytwo]

1 hour ago, legionary2099 said:

And that's what it is , descending and climbing instruction WILL NOT BE made if the aircraft have to go through thick cloud layers.

All of what you said is correct, but it isn't even close to what you were saying before:

16 hours ago, legionary2099 said:

charging through the cloud is usually a do or die decision.

...which is utter rubbish.  It's perfectly routine.  I'm used to military rather than airline procedures, but there isn't too much difference when it comes to transits.

2 hours ago, legionary2099 said:

737 MAX 8 tragedies are just one of the many that may result from a blocked sensor. 

Well that wasn't a blocked sensor, it was an erroneous AoA reading (AoA relies on a rotating sensor that does not measure air pressure and thus can't be blocked) that was causing a system that the pilots were unaware existed to engage when it wasn't supposed to and repeatedly trim the nose down, which then put them into a part of the flight envelope that meant the elevator actuator was unable to provide sufficient force to follow the pilot's commands (blowback) and they lost control of the aircraft.

[Akyamarukh]

I am starting to regret why i took economic degree instead joining the navy or become pilot......

 

Oh Wait, i got heavy nearsight....

 

______________

20 hours ago, sunlo2013 said:

I love how this turn into aviation knowledge thread as well as history lesson. 

:V

Keep going guys, i am watching.

[dejiko_nyo]

please, please, do continue. I like clouds and their varieties, especially the cumulonimbus variety that have huge thermal convection currents. Do continue.