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Nikkles

HE is a disease

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Sorry to all of the US cruiser captains, the IJN cruiser captains, the Jap DD captains, the French, the British BB captains, the USSR cruiser captains and most of all those donkeys that fire nothing but HE in German BBs (Tirpitz especially)...

But when every second salvo sent my way sets at least one fire, and lets face it the reload speed of these cancerous imaginary ships is simply amazing, even on a shatter... It becomes literally impossible to play anything other than an island camper or a speed tank.

The game has become entirely geared around the completely unskilled HE spammer, hit a ship anywhere and get free damage, unless you hit the belt armour where you get a free fire in the con tower anyway.

Can you imagine any of these players in an AP only mode? It's actually not worth playing a BB anymore, with dispersion and reload times, you might get lucky and get 3 pens per salvo, 12k damage every 30s. HE spammers are going to hit you with anywhere from 15-60 shells in that time scoring 2k each AND fires.

Yes this is a rant, but since when did a BB fall to a IJN DD's guns? In what reality do you get 3 fires off the first salvo, hit the repair button and then get another 2 fires?

HE makes angling completely irrelevant, why angle when it's going to do the same damage anyway? DPM of HE spam is 4x higher than trying to pick your targets and angle against the biggest threats and consider your opponents strengths and weaknesses... Nah why bother, just sit behind an island and throw HE at it til it dies, can't hit me anyway. Armour, angling, skill, critical thought and decision making have all been removed from the game in favour of brainless cruiser gameplay.

Edited by Nikkles
IJN instead of the more casual term.

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I think this is how you end up complaining:

  1. Entered just one battle with a BB
  2. Destroyed in the mid game because of HE spammers
  3. Infuriated
  4. Complained about the silliness of HE shells

You know what? Why don't you play more games to think how to mitigate damages from HE spammers and how to cripple them down.

@Paladinum This guy is trying to demonize cruisers.

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Forgive me @Nikkles, but you give me the impression that you feel you should be able to just blap whatever opposes you with impunity.

Tell me, when your BB is angled what else can a light cruiser hope to do?

I suggest you invest in more captain skills, upgrades and signal flags to minimize the effect fire has on your precious BB.

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I for one appreciate your rant Nikkles. It can be healthy to get these things off you chest, and no on here is forced to agree with you. Though I encourage all to take the gentle rout and sympathise if you're having a hard time.

You know,  when I look at the number of battles some of the punters here have compared to me I realised I've done the noob trip in WoW more recently than many here.

This is how the progression goes. You start playing the game at tier 1, think to yourself, yeah no big deal this is just a few guys sailing around in little ships shooting at each other, this game has nothing to it. Then you quit and go play something else. Or, as in my case you play just a bit more - and something happens - you start to learn about things like concealment distances,, armour pen, and angling, and HE vs AP use, hydro and radar, and gun calibres and RoF,  and torps/CVs get introduced...the list goes on and on..

SO you think to yourself, this game has a hell of a lot to it, and some of these guys are really damn good. SO in order not to make a complete tool of yourself you do some research on how to play better, which inevitably leads straight to YouTube. Once there the CCs ALL tell you in a LOUD VOICE "any time you have 150mm guns you take DE and IFHE.' Forget the rest, HE spam away.

SO, to cut a long story short, even new players are armed with this advice VERY early on - no wonder it gets abused. I realised recently I was overusing HE, started to remember I have AP in my cruisers - which has been beneficial.  

 

   

Edited by nevernude

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:fish_palm: I guess at least it's not another thread complaining about CVs but, HE is a fundamental part of the game. it is CLs only real weapon against bigger ships. If you are finding yourself constantly on fire then most likely you are being too aggressive and being focus fired. Personally I love it when somebody is just firing HE from their BB, it means I can swing my rear guns around on them too, a few burning fires can be repaired and damage healed back if you are positioned properly and able to withdraw to recover. The AP citadels that you fired at the silly HE BB on the otherhand cant be so easily fixed.

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well one had to realize those HE spammer themselves are open to HE Spamming themselves too .. yes the HE spamming is an annoying trend and it should be somehow re balanced, to an extent i would say ... Instead what I would suggest is fire damage be taken down a notch or 2 and fire duration also ...

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Dear OP, you are in the noob phase. Being helpless and cannt do anything. Everyone maybe become noob once. Well, you will get used to it (adapt) and starting to get better when playing BB. Trust me bro, BB with AP is more scary than HE Cruiser. But of course its require higher skill. Its really rewarding when you can land Citadel on enemy sheep.

 

But the learning proccess could take several thousand battle AND ITS REALLY HURT.

 

You have 2 option :

1. Keep playing BB for 3000 battle and keep watch YouTube video. Also try Cruiser and Destroyer to know their weakness. This path have 50% chance to turn you into pro/unicum player. Depend on your talent and dedication.

 

2. Become fascist. Join the CV player and instantly become pro. Just take 100 battle and i will guarantee you can become pro. IF CV DECIDE TO SINK A SHEEP, IT WILL SINK (unless its another CV)

CV IS THE MOST POWERFULL CLASS IN THE GAME.

you can attack any surface sheep, anywhere and anytime! 

 

 

_______________

i am start as noob German Cruiser player, try BB but no good.... ALMOST RAGE QUIT WoWs. 

 

Frustated.... 

 

then i got revelation, when i was watch drifter opening i see an aircraft carrier. Its look so cool..... Suddenly i got urge to get Hosho. Guess what? EZ 3 kill with 50k damage on my first try.....

 

Back then.....

People keep saying CV sux and require higher skill. Its blatant lie and bullsheet.... The fact is, its too powerfull... People just afraid their surface sheep become obsolete.

 

Before rework, CV have weakness because it can lose plane... Also you cannt do anything againts high AA ship.

 

After rework, they are unstoppable.

 

Just a warn, T4 CV might be sux for balancing purpose againts newbie seal clubbing. The higher the tier the stronger is CV. For current meta i recommend getting Midway or Audacious.

 

Play CV

Just simply play CV

 

 

 

 

Edited by Akyamarukh

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2 minutes ago, Akyamarukh said:

 

Dear OP, you are in the noob phase. Being helpless and cannt do anything. Everyone maybe become noob once. Well, you will get used to it (adapt) and starting to get better when playing BB. Trust me bro, BB with AP is more scary than HE Cruiser. But of course its require higher skill. Its really rewarding when you can land Citadel on enemy sheep.

 

But the learning proccess could take several thousand battle AND ITS REALLY HURT.

 

You have 2 option :

1. Keep playing BB for 3000 battle and keep watch YouTube video. Also try Cruiser and Destroyer to know their weakness. This path have 50% chance to turn you into pro/unicum player. Depend on your talent and dedication.

 

2. Become fascist. Join the CV player and instantly become pro. Just take 100 battle and i will guarantee you can become pro. IF CV DECIDE TO SINK A SHEEP, IT WILL SINK (unless its another CV)

CV IS THE MOST POWERFULL CLASS IN THE GAME.

you can attack any surface sheep, anywhere and anytime! 

 

 

_______________

i am start as noob German Cruiser player, try BB but no good.... ALMOST RAGE QUIT WoWs. 

 

Frustated.... 

 

then i got revelation, when i was watch drifter opening i see an aircraft carrier. Its look so cool..... Suddenly i got urge to get Hosho.

Back then.....

People keep saying CV sux and require higher skill. Its blatant lie and bullsheet.... The fact is, its too powerfull... People just afraid their surface sheep become obsolete.

 

Before rework, CV have weakness because it can lose plane... Also you cannt do anything againts high AA ship.

 

After rework, they are unstoppable.

 

Just a warn, T4 CV might be sux for balancing purpose againts newbie seal clubbing. The higher the tier the stronger is CV. For current meta i recommend getting Midway or Audacious.

 

Play CV

Just simply play CV

 

 

 

 

I have a feeling sharkbaits memoirs right there will be turned into a made for TV movie. A down-on-his-luck "drifter"  about to give up on captaining his own ship discovers the power of a CV and (through a WoWS montage of course) becomes good, before tragically, through his own genius at CVs, ends up going insane and is left to posting crazy theories in a forum, with occasional hints at a past sanity showing through in various posts. (the first few sentences actually make a bit of sense there after all)

 

 

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I too got frustrated by HE spamming, but I was getting nowhere with ranting. 

So.... I decided to to find ways to mitigate the damage - found a video where Notser uses a survival build on BB and in my opinion it does help. I now run a survival build on most of my BB's with slight tweaks from Notser's build.

I also play CA/CL and DD - can understand why for most HE is more effective. Each ship has its own pros and cons.

Being part of a division also helps, you can focus targets and in many cases instantly delete the HE spammer with a well placed salvo. 2 or 3 BB's working together is better than 1.

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When you say survival build, do you just mean choosing any and all skills that have to do with reducing fire chance and improve cool down of damage control and such?

Edited by nevernude

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It wasn't as bad in the early days, as it was mainly (& rightfully) cruisers that spammed HE.....  Then WG then decided that evey subsequent ship line that came out, had to have a bloody gimmick from now on, so they stuffed up the British BB AP shells with quick timers, & made them all into HE shooters...

There's where things started to go wrong (for the game as a whole), by making the gimmick move, it has really annoyed the bulk of players, because every time a new ship or line comes out, they stick on gimmicks..... & a side effect is that it makes it harder for newer players to learn, older players like us tend to exploit (& seal club) the said gimmicks, the meta in the game has changed to lemming train / damage farm, & older ships get power creeped.....

Result = new players lose heart quick, old players get sick of crappy meta, people keep screaming out for more gimmicks / less gimmicks, & EVERYONE wants to sail around in impervious, OP  ships....

So we can blame the British BB's for this HE spamming .... So we will have to put up with it.... (& give as much as we get hehehe)

:Smile_child:

 

Ordrazz

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> Complaining about HE

> 54% of matches playing BBs and best ship is Hotel Yamaro - aka your typical BBaby

 

You are just asking for MORE HE coming to your precious BBs in the future.  If I have the credits for it, I will buy Conqueror just for you and use HE only for you. I know I'm a nice person.

If I ever see you in a match, prepare ALL the fire extinguishers you can get.

 

5 hours ago, mr_glitchy_R said:

@Paladinum This guy is trying to demonize cruisers.

Also DDs. Both cruisers and DDs have more impact to the outcome of a match than most BBs. ESPECIALLY long-ranged BBs like Hotel Yamaro.

 

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3 hours ago, Akyamarukh said:

 

2. Become fascist. Join the CV player and instantly become pro. Just take 100 battle and i will

 

I realise English might be your 2nd language, but you might want to be a bit careful using words like fascist on a forum. I'm sure you've used it without really understanding it.

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Quick question somewhat related to this topic. I understand the Brit BB HE is awesome. But I was just looking at the Queen Elizabeth and her main gun AP seems to do more damage than any other BB in her class? If her AP is that good, why all the HE spam? Particularly given how often people wilfully expose their broadside ...

I know I must be missing something important, just not sure what?   

(Edit: to answer my own question the best in class AP seems to be just at T6).

Edited by nevernude

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3 minutes ago, nevernude said:

Quick question somewhat related to this topic. I understand the Brit BB HE is awesome. But I was just looking at the Queen Elizabeth and her main gun AP seems to do more damage than any other BB in her class? If her AP is that good, why all the HE spam? Particularly given how often people wilfully expose their broadside ...

I know I must be missing something important, just not sure what?   

The fuse timers are shorter on tech tree RN BB's.  Normally you have a 0.033s fuse timer on BB AP shells, but it's 0.015s for RN BB AP.  This means the shell doesn't travel as far after arming, so against enemy BB's the shell will often detonate before it reaches the citadel, resulting in a lot of overpens.

It's not terrible, but for this line the HE is better most of the time.  If you get a cruiser that's angled a bit then AP is a good choice, but you have to predict well.  Perfectly broadside cruisers will often result in overpens due to the armour not being thick enough to arm the shell (an AP shell needs calibre/6 effective armour thickness to arm the shell and start the fuse timer).

To the OP - @Nikkles, HE is an important mechanic to balance the game.  Although it can be frustrating to play against, it is most definitely well balanced.  Generally if you are taking too many fires and too much HE damage it means your positioning is poor.  However, if you aren't taking any damage in your BB this also means your positioning is poor.  You want to strike a balance where you are being aggressively positioned enough that you take manageable damage that means you are tanking for your team while not losing all your health quickly.  It's a difficult thing to learn, you have to have reasonable awareness of where your friendly ships are, where the enemy ships are, and what everyone is likely to do.  This comes from both experience and a drive to improve.

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5 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

The fuse timers are shorter on tech tree RN BB's.  Normally you have a 0.033s fuse timer on BB AP shells, but it's 0.015s for RN BB AP.  This means the shell doesn't travel as far after arming, so against enemy BB's the shell will often detonate before it reaches the citadel, resulting in a lot of overpens.

It's not terrible, but for this line the HE is better most of the time.  If you get a cruiser that's angled a bit then AP is a good choice, but you have to predict well.  Perfectly broadside cruisers will often result in overpens due to the armour not being thick enough to arm the shell (an AP shell needs calibre/6 effective armour thickness to arm the shell and start the fuse timer).

To the OP - @Nikkles, HE is an important mechanic to balance the game.  Although it can be frustrating to play against, it is most definitely well balanced.  Generally if you are taking too many fires and too much HE damage it means your positioning is poor.  However, if you aren't taking any damage in your BB this also means your positioning is poor.  You want to strike a balance where you are being aggressively positioned enough that you take manageable damage that means you are tanking for your team while not losing all your health quickly.  It's a difficult thing to learn, you have to have reasonable awareness of where your friendly ships are, where the enemy ships are, and what everyone is likely to do.  This comes from both experience and a drive to improve.

Oh I see! Thanks very much, that's interesting and good to know. 

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9 hours ago, Nikkles said:

Sorry to all of the US cruiser captains, the Jap cruiser captains, the Jap DD captains, the French, the British BB captains, the USSR cruiser captains and most of all those donkeys that fire nothing but HE in German BBs (Tirpitz especially)...

 

Screenshjjot_3.jpg

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Firstly, thank you all for your replies.

I realise now that my post was not particularly elegant and probably didn't show my own playstyle (especially in Yamato). 

I like my BB matches up close and personal, until about a week ago my Yamato was secondary built, my Conqueror fires AP pretty much exclusively and every other BB I have is specced secondary (most taking fire prevention over more dps).

When I say positioning doesn't make any difference, I mean that when I push forward I tend to angle up next to the outside of an island so I can face whatever is coming in from that flank. I accept that anything coming at me, including DDs that go all the way out to the map border to get around me on said flank, is fair game; when they cause damage of any sort it is purely because I have placed myself there in order to both tank damage for my team and to try and discourage the enemy from advancing any further without serious risk to themselves.

What gets me, is the Henri at max gun range on the other side of the map sending a no-hoper salvo in my direction, most of them missing or hitting the island except for that one shell that shatters off my rear flagpole and sets a 40s fire...

As for what else CLs can do? I've seen RN CLs, DesMs using AP and hell even some DDs do terrible things to a poorly positioned BB, completely deserved I hasten to add, because they've been smart and gotten into a position where they can punish a BB that has thought that angle to be safe.

Trying to explain how I view this game is kind of tough, I think of it like a chess match, how your team sets up, crossfires, dissuasion, area denial, using the health pools of BBs so that your cruisers and DDs can dish out damage while you take most of the incoming shots... My issue is that everything in this game is now capable of being (and encouraged to be) a knight.

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Additionally, although I think the dpm output of HE spammers is slightly too high, my problem is actually with fire chance, regardless of what the "Chance to set fire" stats say on each ship's guns, every salvo of HE sets at the very least one fire.

This might be because the ships I've played so far have poor deck armour (open to suggestions here though currently I am going down the US and German BB lines) but it just feels kinda crappy that as a BB I have to hide behind islands because cruisers are actually what's going to sink me, not enemy BBs.

On the note of fires/DoTs (yes I main BBs) I think the flood time nerf was not needed (flood chance for CVs probably could've been lowered instead), if a DD can get me with torps, either I'm positioned poorly or they're playing really aggressive and sail into point blank range at high risk to get the kill. Either of these is completely fine and DDs should be rewarded for both.

@Paladinum As for you, sir, I look forward to it.

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2 hours ago, j0e90 said:

I realise English might be your 2nd language, but you might want to be a bit careful using words like fascist on a forum. I'm sure you've used it without really understanding it.

It's off topic but his use of fascist in a comical/sarcastic sense is entirely appropriate, and in fact I might argue that the majority of native speakers do not fully understand the term now.

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1 hour ago, Nikkles said:

I like my BB matches up close and personal, until about a week ago my Yamato was secondary built, my Conqueror fires AP pretty much exclusively and every other BB I have is specced secondary (most taking fire prevention over more dps).

Secondary builds are fun no doubt, but definitely sub-optimal.  If you want to be successful a full tanking build is essential, which means Fire Prevention, BoS, and the appropriate fire/flood reduction modules and flags.  This is doubly so if you are playing a Yammy by holding the centre of a flank in a stationary position, you're basically unmissable and that means maneuvering to help tank is not an option.

As for Conqueror, I've tried getting AP to work in the past, and it's not completely awful, but HE is better in most situations.  Even when you are firing on a broadside BB at close range, HE will do more direct damage most of the time, plus it will set fires for more damage.  Pretty much the only time you want to fire AP is when you have a partially angled cruiser to shoot at.  The main skill in sailing Conq is managing your health and positioning, this is more difficult than in other T10 BB's, since you play closer than other BB's and are also easier to damage - but very rewarding when done right.

1 hour ago, Nikkles said:

What gets me, is the Henri at max gun range on the other side of the map sending a no-hoper salvo in my direction, most of them missing or hitting the island except for that one shell that shatters off my rear flagpole and sets a 40s fire...

One shell hitting you at max range and setting a fire is frustrating, but it doesn't happen very often - it's memorable when it does though.  Having said that an Henri at max range can reliably hit any BB, even one maneuvering, so a bow tanking BB is the unmissable.

1 hour ago, Nikkles said:

every salvo of HE sets at the very least one fire

This is just perception.  The HE spammers will say that they never get a fire when they need one.  People tend to remember the negatives. 

1 hour ago, Nikkles said:

This might be because the ships I've played so far have poor deck armour

Deck armour only affects HE pen, not fire chance.  A HE shell that shatters because the armour is too thick to pen will have the same chance to set a fire as one that penetrates and does damage.

1 hour ago, Nikkles said:

as a BB I have to hide behind islands

No you don't.  Just get your positioning right, you should be trying to get the enemy to shoot at you, but only taking damage at a rate that will keep them interested but enable you to survive the battle.  Position, maneuvre, and hit them harder than they hit you, these are the keys of BB play.  Note I can't stand Yamato because it is terrible at mobile BB play, and staying mobile is the best way to play a BB.

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My god... Sharkbait making sense again with a wall of text. Indeed the second coming is nigh!

HE is a countermechanic is if we have AP only, none of the ships with smaller guns would be able to inflict any damage to heavier armoured ships. Unless the damaged mechanics is completely reworks, and trust me, it will create an uproar that is worse than the current dying one that has surrounded 0.8.x.

Looking at your port, you do have some nice HE spamming ships. My suggestion: If you can't beat them, join them. Spam HE with your Conkeker. Work your way through seattle to HE spamming worc. I once hated the Minotaur... until I got one myself and enjoyed giving the AP instead.

Also, diversify your ship class. Reanalyse your bb playing style and see why you keep on getting targeted? Is it you are too far away from your support? Is your team supporting you? Do you keep moving instead of staying still? The other forumers above have given some pretty good advice.

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