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Arnice

Can we fix CV spotting potential?

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[DARIA]
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Okay, i know CV is being very annoying these day, especially at tier X when you meet not only one, but two of them. 
I know we can not just simply removing CV, i see new CV has some potential too and they deserved to be exist. But as a cruiser player, i found its really annoying for being spotted for nearly entire match. 
CV spotting is basically a radar, yeah it can't go through smokescreen, but it has longer duration (esp. with weak AA ships), unlimited ranges, make island become meaningless. With CV spotting, its difficult in playing ships which rely on position, flanking or creating cross-fired. The CV just fly straight to you and then BB AP comes, theres notthing much you can do, not like you will spread his planes intime even in strong AA ships. We know that some ships has huge air detection, such as Azuma, which is maybe the most passive cruiser in tier IX, and it play style got push even farther from the battlefield because of CV spotting.
Thats the problems, and here is my opinion, we can just fix CV spotting, now when you get spotted by planes, only the CV can see you, the rest of enemy team only know where you are on the minimap (like radar fix). And in fixed of time the enemy will be able to see you. The cd imo should be 10 seconds, even though i really want it will be permanent. 
Feel free to give you thoughts, thanks for reading, and sorry for my broken English. 

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Permaspot issues has always been present even before the reworking. In fact, it was worse because a Haku had 9 potential sets of planes to permaspot a target in the game, at the cost of doing nothing else but be a scout.

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The new CVs only have 1 squadron in the air at any time. 3 temporary: 1-4 for any returning group, and possibly 1-2 more summoned fighter groups which don't last long at all. Across all tiers. 

And WG reduced air detection for all surface ships just a short while ago.

 

The old CVs, on the other hand, have anywhere between 3 to 8 squadrons in the air at all times. They can leave a squadron in each cap to spot ships permanently.

 

The only thing is more people playing new CVs than the good ol' time. So more CVs in battles.

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i do agree that CV spotting potential has been substantially reduced, not only 1 and only 1 squadron anytime, plus reduced air detection range across the board. however some ships have been much less effective as their performance/effectiveness of traits previously  was based on a lot of matches with no CV at all. actually BBs with short firing range suffered a lot too; while other BBs ends up more passive as being spotted permanently forced them to stay at the back and snipe, those with short main gun range can't do much at all. Move forward means permanent spotted with no effective place to hide/recover, staying at the back effective removing her from battle.

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10 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

The old CVs, on the other hand, have anywhere between 3 to 8 squadrons in the air at all times. They can leave a squadron in each cap to spot ships permanently.

 

The only thing is more people playing new CVs than the good ol' time. So more CVs in battles

True and true. There has always been the air spotting issue, and yes, it was worse in CV games prior to 0.8.0. But the issue is more pronounced now because many more games are CV games. People who could put up with CV spotting for 1 out of 10 games can't put up with it in 2/3 games.

And the other thing you had prior to 0.8.0? FIGHTER SQUADRONS.

There was some ability for CVs to force enemy aircraft out of an area. Not always, and if you were up against something which had a lot of squadrons, you were limited in what you could do, but the potential was there.

All you can do now is run and hope CV gets sick of following you, or dump ordinance and heads back.

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A lot of members here have already proposed sound solutions to the spotting issue such as making CV spotting similar to Cyclone spotting which is minimap only(except for the CV itself)

 or introduce a delay of x seconds before the ship gets visible to allies(like current radar spotting)

Now we can only hope that WG is taking the issue as strongly as it should be taken...

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35 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

True and true. There has always been the air spotting issue, and yes, it was worse in CV games prior to 0.8.0. But the issue is more pronounced now because many more games are CV games. People who could put up with CV spotting for 1 out of 10 games can't put up with it in 2/3 games.

And the other thing you had prior to 0.8.0? FIGHTER SQUADRONS.

There was some ability for CVs to force enemy aircraft out of an area. Not always, and if you were up against something which had a lot of squadrons, you were limited in what you could do, but the potential was there.

All you can do now is run and hope CV gets sick of following you, or dump ordinance and heads back.

The caveat of the "stats" are that not all players do that in old CVs. Good players or bad players both clump their squadrons together to execute airstrikes.

IT IS ALWAYS THE PLAYERS!

But the dev's intent is also to blame (partially).

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Henry Ford built the Model T so that the masses could get into accidents drive places. wg built the new cvs so that the masses could "play cv".

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11 hours ago, Paladinum said:

True and true. There has always been the air spotting issue, and yes, it was worse in CV games prior to 0.8.0. But the issue is more pronounced now because many more games are CV games. People who could put up with CV spotting for 1 out of 10 games can't put up with it in 2/3 games.

And the other thing you had prior to 0.8.0? FIGHTER SQUADRONS.

There was some ability for CVs to force enemy aircraft out of an area. Not always, and if you were up against something which had a lot of squadrons, you were limited in what you could do, but the potential was there.

All you can do now is run and hope CV gets sick of following you, or dump ordinance and heads back.

I think this is the nail on the head.  And what im seeing is the skill set jump between cv players now having a full control on who wins the match.  One of the reason they did a cv rework in the first place.  Here in the forums theirs players with 70% plus win rates in cvs with over 1000 games.  The meta as it stands  is becoming draining.

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11 hours ago, dejiko_nyo said:

Henry Ford built the Model T so that the masses could get into accidents drive places. wg built the new cvs so that the masses could "play cv".

They have a game for that, its called WOWP.

11 minutes ago, hiefsy said:

I think this is the nail on the head.  And what im seeing is the skill set jump between cv players now having a full control on who wins the match.  One of the reason they did a cv rework in the first place.  Here in the forums theirs players with 70% plus win rates in cvs with over 1000 games.  The meta as it stands  is becoming draining.

Draining is an understatement. Nothing has really changed with cv's except there are cv's in every single game now. Still the best cv generally wins the battle.

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3 hours ago, dieselhead said:

Still the best cv generally wins the battle.

You can say best player generally wins the battle, but according to data new CV has less influence to the outcome of the match.

Some redditors do some digging on the win rate of top 5% players. Results contradicts what you believe.

And yes my DD, Cruiser and BB winrate still higher or equal to my CV winrate after rework. And I am not a bad CV player.

Screenshot_20190406-115526_Chrome.thumb.jpg.ae7f93bb923c93d7d2f15b30ec4b2ce8.jpg

My own experience is that, if I am in surface ship of any classes, I can always do something to stop people throwing the match and try to maintain objective control. In CV, I can't do anything to stop people throwing any ship or objective. Only think I can hope for is doing high enough damage to turn things around. 

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3 hours ago, hiefsy said:

I think this is the nail on the head.  And what im seeing is the skill set jump between cv players now having a full control on who wins the match.  One of the reason they did a cv rework in the first place.  Here in the forums theirs players with 70% plus win rates in cvs with over 1000 games.  The meta as it stands  is becoming draining.

Don't you give @Paladinum the credit. I was the one who made the original statement! :Smile_izmena:

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28 minutes ago, sunlo2013 said:

You can say best player generally wins the battle, but according to data new CV has less influence to the outcome of the match.

Some redditors do some digging on the win rate of top 5% players. Results contradicts what you believe.

And yes my DD, Cruiser and BB winrate still higher or equal to my CV winrate after rework. And I am not a bad CV player.

Screenshot_20190406-115526_Chrome.thumb.jpg.ae7f93bb923c93d7d2f15b30ec4b2ce8.jpg

My own experience is that, if I am in surface ship of any classes, I can always do something to stop people throwing the match and try to maintain objective control. In CV, I can't do anything to stop people throwing any ship or objective. Only think I can hope for is doing high enough damage to turn things around. 

Sunlo: Hey everyone, look at my stats again! Because I haven't flashed them enough on the forums....

Yeah we get it, you're a decent player, get over it.

lemme rephrase then since your "data" says otherwise,

IN MY EXPERIENCE the better CV player wins the game.

Happy now? 

Look at you CV average dmg ffs. You want data? How about that for data saying CV is over powered?

 

Edited by dieselhead

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18 minutes ago, dieselhead said:

Sunlo: Hey everyone, look at my stats again! Because I haven't flashed them enough on the forums....

Yeah we get it, you're a decent player, get over it.

lemme rephrase then since your "data" says otherwise,

IN MY EXPERIENCE the better CV player wins the game.

Happy now? 

Look at you CV average dmg ffs. You want data? How about that for data saying CV is over powered?

 

Sorry there are nothing I can help you if you cannot read.

People from reddit dig up "Data" from "Maple Syrup" (Yes click to link and try to read), and those DATA contradict your GUT FEELING. 

My own experience and personal "DATA" confirm those finding from Redditor.

That is how people do RESEARCH.

And usually people make constructive counter argument by providing NEW evident to support otherwise.

 

Edited by sunlo2013

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2 minutes ago, sunlo2013 said:

Sorry there are nothing I can help you if you cannot read.

People from reddit dig up "Data" from "Maple Syrup" (Yes click to link and try to read), and those DATA contradict your GUT FEELING. 

My own experience and personal "DATA" confirm those finding from Redditor.

That is how people do RESEARCH.

And usually people make constructive counter argument by providing NEW evident to support otherwise.

 

Yeah whatever, mate.

You keep your head stuck in the sand like the other sheep on here then.

Have fun in denail.

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2 hours ago, sunlo2013 said:

People from reddit dig up "Data" from "Maple Syrup" (Yes click to link and try to read), and those DATA contradict your GUT FEELING. 

My own experience and personal "DATA" confirm those finding from Redditor.

That is how people do RESEARCH.

And usually people make constructive counter argument by providing NEW evident to support otherwise.

GJ. Also, nice stats across the classes. Also people fail to recongnize that in a game there are the same number of CVs on both teams. Neither team has a CV advantage over the other.

Edited by dejiko_nyo
There! English noun addition! Make things clearer.

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1 minute ago, dejiko_nyo said:

GJ. Also, nice stats across the classes. Also people fail to recongnize that in a game there are the same number of CVs on both teams. Neither has a CV advantage.

What are you? His boyfriend? If you had your nose any further up his back side we could call you boots since thats all that would be hanging out.

Also are you dumb? SO if one cv is 20% WR and the other is 70% WR there is no advantage?

That would have to be one of the most retarded things Ive read on this forum given that the potential for a CV to wreck an enemy team anywhere on the map is so great.

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15 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

GJ. Also, nice stats across the classes. Also people fail to recognize that in a game there are the same number of CVs on both teams. Neither has a CV advantage.

That is a very wrong assessment.

1. Summonable fighters are useful as spotter planes and not fighters thanks to being confined to a clearly avoidable zone. Therefore, green CVs cannot fight against red CVs with fighters directly. FYI, fighters fight aircrafts. That was what they were made for. But now they are borderline useless thanks to being confined to a clearly avoidable zone.

2. CVs always have all the advantages over all surface ships. Do I really have to remind you that.

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51 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

2. CVs always have all the advantages over all surface ships. Do I really have to remind you that.

No, I mean both sides have equal numbers of CVs. How they use that against the other team is a different story. It is not like one team has 1 CV and the other team has 2. It is not like where one team had 5BB/3CA/4DD and the other team as 4BB/2CA/6DD.

Corrected my lack of noun and ambiguity.

Edited by dejiko_nyo
Removed ambiguity.

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3 hours ago, dejiko_nyo said:

Corrected my lack of noun and ambiguity.

I know that was your point but I wanted to counter you anyway :Smile_trollface:

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[DARIA]
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I do agreed that the new CV is better than the old one. But that doesn't mean that the new CV completely fine at this moment and theres still many works to do with it, and spotting is one of their problems. 
And because the new CV is way more interesting than the old one, CV populations keep on increasing and show no sign of stop. If we are going to constantly meet 2 CVs per match from now on, then spotting issue should be fix. 

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On 4/5/2019 at 6:45 PM, Paladinum said:

The old CVs, on the other hand, have anywhere between 3 to 8 squadrons in the air at all times. They can leave a squadron in each cap to spot ships permanently.

yeah but the old version have opponent CV fighter hunting your team CV aircraft as well. in a sense both CV actively deny each other spotting

You can play DD and try to capping, and your team CV will scare enemy aircraft away from cap (if they somewhat competent they will protect DD without you asked anyway)

Edited by humusz

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19 minutes ago, humusz said:

yeah but the old version have opponent CV fighter hunting your team CV aircraft as well. in a sense both CV actively deny each other spotting

You can play DD and try to capping, and your team CV will scare enemy aircraft away from cap (if they somewhat competent they will protect DD without you asked anyway)

Yeah, not until enemy CV fishing division deplane your team CV within 8 mins.

My old clan, have CV division with over 90% win rate and some of our clan mate have 98% win rate on minotaur.

I only division with those CV couple of times. It is like guaranteed win from the get go. The more your team want to throw, the more enemies left for your division to farm. 

So CV denying each other is just an illusion for first part of the game, then it become the have and the have not.

Edited by sunlo2013

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12 minutes ago, sunlo2013 said:

Yeah, not until enemy CV fishing division deplane your team CV within 8 mins.

My old clan, have CV division with over 90% win rate and some of our clan mate have 98% win rate on minotaur.

I only division with those CV couple of times. It is like guaranteed win from the get go. The more your team want to throw, the more enemies left for your division to farm. 

So CV denying each other is just an illusion for first part of the game, then it become the have and the have not.

Its not, at least on high celling tournament like KOTS. Where the the skill level is equal

That means its not what wrong with concept restricting opponent fog of war, but the exploited skill level is the flawed one. Thats the player factor not faulty "illusion" game design

In new cv fighter is under developed, thats why each cv have free reign on where to go, who to spot. Its diffrent if the fighter is not restricted into small area, but actively hinder opponent cv air struke, with aid of some Automatic AI.

Edited by humusz

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9 minutes ago, humusz said:

Its not, at least on high celling tournament like KOTS. Where the the skill level is equal

That means its not what wrong with concept restricting opponent fog of war, but the exploited skill level is the flawed one. Thats the player factor not faulty "illusion" game design

In new cv fighter is under developed, thats why each cv have free reign on where to go, who to spot. Its diffrent if the fighter is not restricted into small area, but actively hinder opponent cv air struke, with aid of some Automatic AI.

Interesting that you talk about Kots, but did you know anyone who play at that level and have a chance to chat with them. 

What is function of CV in Kots? How they coordinate with CV about what to do?

It is 100% different than what you see in random battles. 

 

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