AA is too OP now. CV is unplayable.

[Classified_1]

Two t10 CV game. Midway and Audacious. 

My buffalo did 100k ship damage and 122k plane damage. lol 

 

 

[yansuki]

you are playing against bot or noobs.

try playing against Decent CV player and they will ignore your AA while blapping you with 10-20k damage per bombing run.
i played against a hakuryu and lex, i manage to deal 100k damage and only shoot down 25 planes. most of them are Essex planes. btw im next to conqueror when while she bomb us to oblivion.

[THAI_THIEF]

Even strong AA still can't survive that and you decide that AA too strong need nerf?

Look at mine weakest AA ever 

 

DEAD WEIGHT

[Paladinum]

I've tried CVs in PTS 0.8.0 and every surface ship was a pain in the aft. Even Fuso wipes T6 planes.

Of course aircrafts are way more viable now, ships with good AA can still wipe planes, albeit being much less effective.

But CVs make DDs harder to play, that's for sure. Unless you have to stick to your team mates for the beginning part of the match, you won't survive if the red CVs are out for you. That means you can't cap or scout. Capping early in Domination mode always means better winning chance. Scouting can be done by aircrafts, even if the CV's sole intent is just to drop salt on the enemy.

And if the group you're in won't push forward, what would you do then? Stick with them or break out to cap and get popped by aircrafts?

 

DDs can adapt, but adapting without losing the identity of a ship type is another matter.

#RIPCVidentity

[dejiko_nyo]

*Munches popcorn* You all know exactly why. :3

[dejiko_nyo]

1 hour ago, Paladinum said:

I've tried CVs in PTS 0.8.0 and every surface ship was a pain in the aft. Even Fuso wipes T6 planes.

Of course aircrafts are way more viable now, ships with good AA can still wipe planes, albeit being much less effective.

But CVs make DDs harder to play, that's for sure. Unless you have to stick to your team mates for the beginning part of the match, you won't survive if the red CVs are out for you. That means you can't cap or scout. Capping early in Domination mode always means better winning chance. Scouting can be done by aircrafts, even if the CV's sole intent is just to drop salt on the enemy.

And if the group you're in won't push forward, what would you do then? Stick with them or break out to cap and get popped by aircrafts?

 

DDs can adapt, but adapting without losing the identity of a ship type is another matter.

#RIPCVidentity

And it all boils down to the fact that the majority on this server doesn't want to advance whether there is cv or not. (See other threads for commentary.)

[_Blink_Blackwolf]

12 hours ago, Classified_1 said:

Two t10 CV game. Midway and Audacious. 

My buffalo did 100k ship damage and 122k plane damage. lol 

64 planes for two T10 CVs combined is nothing significant tbh...even a T6 Ryujo can mindlessly throw ~76 planes at you(as shown in a recent video by Mighty Jingles).

Plane dmg is also pointless because if the CV manages to pull those damaged planes off, he will be able to relaunch them later with full hp so no penalty.

The reason you were able to kill that many planes is because you are in a AA focused ship + those players are maybe still getting a hang of carriers. 

 

[Classified_1]

47 minutes ago, _TAMAL_ said:

64 planes for two T10 CVs combined is nothing significant tbh...even a T6 Ryujo can mindlessly throw ~76 planes at you(as shown in a recent video by Mighty Jingles).

Plane dmg is also pointless because if the CV manages to pull those damaged planes off, he will be able to relaunch them later with full hp so no penalty.

The reason you were able to kill that many planes is because you are in a AA focused ship + those players are maybe still getting a hang of carriers. 

 

Actually myself and ibuki all alone one flank. Ibuki got other 38 plane kill. But it is shows that cvs are not op in general. Two down tier ca not running aa build can hold   avg cv player quite well.

[Paladinum]

3 hours ago, dejiko_nyo said:

And it all boils down to the fact that the majority on this server doesn't want to advance whether there is cv or not. (See other threads for commentary.)

Old habits die hard. Bad habits die even harder.

[_Blink_Blackwolf]

33 minutes ago, Classified_1 said:

Actually myself and ibuki all alone one flank. Ibuki got other 38 plane kill. But it is shows that cvs are not op in general. Two down tier ca not running aa build can hold   avg cv player quite well.

Well that means those CVs were pretty much yoloing towards you two, eating flak like crazy and not maneuvering at all. Because, otherwise it is pretty hard to lose planes against an Ibuki Combined AA also played some role there. CVs in general need to avoid combined AA, specially of cruisers.

[Moggytwo]

1 hour ago, _TAMAL_ said:

Plane dmg is also pointless because if the CV manages to pull those damaged planes off, he will be able to relaunch them later with full hp so no penalty.

The point of AA isn't to kill planes - it's to defend your ship from air attacks.  These are not necessarily the same thing.

The way AA is structured a same tier CV should be able to always get the first attack in.  As a surface ship you can reduce the damage taken from that attack significantly by sectoring and maneuvering.  After the first wave the CV captain will reassess their potential for a second wave.  If they have taken a significant amount of damage they will recall their planes, and in this case your AA has been a massive success - you've completely mitigated two or three waves of attacks, and taken much less damage.  You may not have got any kills doing so, but your AA has still done it's job.  If the CV makes the decision to attack you with heavily damaged planes, they may get an attack off, maybe not, but that is when you will get a lot of plane kills.

On the other hand, if you have poor AA that you fail to sector correctly, you are alone, and you don't maneuvre to avoid damage, then the CV may well be able to get multiple attacks off quite safely and that is when you are really going to suffer.  Note this is the CV equivalent of sailing your cruiser broadside in front of a BB, and the game will punish you for bad play.

[_Blink_Blackwolf]

23 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

The point of AA isn't to kill planes - it's to defend your ship from air attacks.  These are not necessarily the same thing.

The way AA is structured a same tier CV should be able to always get the first attack in.  As a surface ship you can reduce the damage taken from that attack significantly by sectoring and maneuvering.  After the first wave the CV captain will reassess their potential for a second wave.  If they have taken a significant amount of damage they will recall their planes, and in this case your AA has been a massive success - you've completely mitigated two or three waves of attacks, and taken much less damage.  You may not have got any kills doing so, but your AA has still done it's job.  If the CV makes the decision to attack you with heavily damaged planes, they may get an attack off, maybe not, but that is when you will get a lot of plane kills.

On the other hand, if you have poor AA that you fail to sector correctly, you are alone, and you don't maneuver to avoid damage, then the CV may well be able to get multiple attacks off quite safely and that is when you are really going to suffer.  Note this is the CV equivalent of sailing your cruiser broadside in front of a BB, and the game will punish you for bad play.

If you build for AA, no CV should be able to touch you IMO. If the CV gets his first attack off, it means AA is not strong enough.

Personally, when I am playing a CV, I never even plan to get more than two waves off. In fact, I consistently "pre-drop" two waves before going to attack anything that has reasonable AA(This includes AA cruisers or high tier BBs). If I am dropping a similar tier BB or a lower tier cruiser, I pre-drop one wave and only against lower tier BBs  can I take the risk of attacking with full squad. Now this calculation is based off of ships being isolated...so, when you bring in combined AA, this becomes even trickier. 

However, all of what I said is only true for CVs that are T8 or below...that is where CV vs Surface Ship interaction is relatively balanced. In case of T10 CVs however, AA matters very little. They have so much HP with so much speed and reserve that noting is effective enough to stop them from attacking you. There is no T12 AA, so you are never going to face the challange that a T8 or T6 CV faces.

[Moggytwo]

54 minutes ago, _TAMAL_ said:

If you build for AA, no CV should be able to touch you IMO. If the CV gets his first attack off, it means AA is not strong enough.

This would fundamentally be poor game design, no ship should be completely immune to another ship.  WG have made it quite clear their game design is that a CV should be able to get attacks off against AA focused ships.

Once again, just like you mitigate damage from other ships by maneuvering and angling, but you will always take some damage if the ship firing at you aims well, the same goes for CV attacks.  Imagine if you could spec your BB to be completely immune to HE damage or fires - that is the same thing as what you are asking for, and it is never the way they will balance the game.

[Soloun]

I play cruisers, I now spec full AA and it feels like it has little affect, from T6ish to T10. I'm leveling French Cruisers having done the rest to T10 and I get killed by planes more then ships, sector, def aa, fighter, change speed and direction, it prolongs your life a little but they just keep coming.

I fail to see the fun for the ship player? For the CV sure, they get to be the griefer they all are at heart :) Just keep coming back, and back and back, where is the play nice policy? Hehe. 

Last game this evening
34 planes shot down, they just kept coming even after I killed one of the CV's. If they want you to die, you die, there is no defense at least that's how it felt. This match wasn't fun due to this. It fells the same at T10.  

 

 

[Moggytwo]

12 minutes ago, Soloun said:

Last game this evening
34 planes shot down, they just kept coming even after I killed one of the CV's. If they want you to die, you die, there is no defense at least that's how it felt. This match wasn't fun due to this. It fells the same at T10.  

So you did 102k damage at T7, killed 3 ships including a CV, shot down about half of the total planes a CV could get during the battle, took the CV focus away from your team mates for most of the battle, won the game, and generally did brilliantly. 

I can see why you're complaining, this sounds awful, what a frustrating experience...

[Classified_1]

CV is too OP as well. Nuking Stalingrad, killing dd, ca, bbs. Even contesting caps and cap it.   

[_Blink_Blackwolf]

1 hour ago, Moggytwo said:

This would fundamentally be poor game design, no ship should be completely immune to another ship.  WG have made it quite clear their game design is that a CV should be able to get attacks off against AA focused ships.

Once again, just like you mitigate damage from other ships by maneuvering and angling, but you will always take some damage if the ship firing at you aims well, the same goes for CV attacks.  Imagine if you could spec your BB to be completely immune to HE damage or fires - that is the same thing as what you are asking for, and it is never the way they will balance the game.

You misinterpreted what I said... I should have said it more clearly, my bad.

I totally agree that no ship should be totally immune to any other ship. But then if you look at T8 carrier vs T10 AA CLs and you'll see that the CLs are pretty much immune to aircraft.

On the other hand, no matter how strong the AA is, a T10 carrier will always be able to complete atleast one strike against a T8 CL. This means, the carrier in this case is immune to the AA(for that one strike)...

It is all about the imbalance in game design regarding AA. No matter how you try to fix it, there will always be some issues regarding AA because the core design is flawed and requires no skill from the surface ship.

What I am trying to say is that if somehow AA is made skill dependent, AA rating will be a secondary thing and the primary focus will be how "the player" himself handles his AA... in that case, the type of desparity mentioned above would go away(i.e. T8 CV will be able to strike T10 AA CL if the CL cant manage AA properly with skill... similarly, T8 ships will be able to completely wipe T10 squads if the player is skilled enough)

[_Blink_Blackwolf]

1 minute ago, Classified_1 said:

CV is too OP as well. Nuking Stalingrad, killing dd, ca, bbs. Even contesting caps and cap it.   

That is basically what it comes down to... any ship can be OP or UP depending on how the player plays it...

And CV is no exception.

[yansuki]

2 hours ago, Soloun said:

I play cruisers, I now spec full AA and it feels like it has little affect, from T6ish to T10. I'm leveling French Cruisers having done the rest to T10 and I get killed by planes more then ships, sector, def aa, fighter, change speed and direction, it prolongs your life a little but they just keep coming.

I fail to see the fun for the ship player? For the CV sure, they get to be the griefer they all are at heart 🙂 Just keep coming back, and back and back, where is the play nice policy? Hehe. 

Last game this evening
34 planes shot down, they just kept coming even after I killed one of the CV's. If they want you to die, you die, there is no defense at least that's how it felt. This match wasn't fun due to this. It fells the same at T10.  

 

 

dont even bother building for AA. the only reasonable one is manual AA and aa mod1 for extra flak cloud. i have worchester with only aa module 1 and 0 aa related skill. (she's great due to her aa range) while i have manual aa on des moines since she has lower aa range. also hakuryu and midway almost give 0 F#$% to des moines, if you have DFAA on cool-down.

[_Blink_Blackwolf]

19 minutes ago, yansuki said:

dont even bother building for AA. the only reasonable one is manual AA and aa mod1 for extra flak cloud. i have worchester with only aa module 1 and 0 aa related skill. (she's great due to her aa range) while i have manual aa on des moines since she has lower aa range. also hakuryu and midway almost give 0 F#$% to des moines, if you have DFAA on cool-down.

That is exactly the issue...T10 CVs are way too OP while T8 and below performe disproportionately(depending on MM)

[Moggytwo]

22 minutes ago, _TAMAL_ said:

What I am trying to say is that if somehow AA is made skill dependent, AA rating will be a secondary thing and the primary focus will be how "the player" himself handles his AA... in that case, the type of desparity mentioned above would go away(i.e. T8 CV will be able to strike T10 AA CL if the CL cant manage AA properly with skill... similarly, T8 ships will be able to completely wipe T10 squads if the player is skilled enough)

I see what you're saying there, and I agree that it would be fun and provide much more engaging game play if AA could be manually controlled.  That sounds genuinely great.  There is still plenty of skill in having awareness of the CV's intentions and attack paths, positioning early and appropriately, maneuvering to make the drop as difficult as possible, and sectoring correctly.  There is a massive difference in damage taken from CV's by a well played ship vs a poorly played ship.

 

25 minutes ago, _TAMAL_ said:

But then if you look at T8 carrier vs T10 AA CLs and you'll see that the CLs are pretty much immune to aircraft.

This seems reasonable.  Attacking a ship specifically designed to counter you that is two tiers higher should be suicide.  Go charge down an Atlanta in your Mutsuki and see how successful you are!

26 minutes ago, _TAMAL_ said:

On the other hand, no matter how strong the AA is, a T10 carrier will always be able to complete atleast one strike against a T8 CL. This means, the carrier in this case is immune to the AA(for that one strike)...

This also seems reasonable, of course a ship that should be able to launch a successful strike against a same tier AA cruiser should be able to do so to one two tiers lower.  The T10 CV is not immune to T8 CL AA though, and a second strike will likely result in all the planes dying and a possibility of not landing the attack.  That's an awfully successful outcome for a ship two tiers lower.

I honestly think AA balance is pretty good right now.  There are targets that same tier CV's are extremely wary of, and know they will be punished for attacking in terms of severely limiting future strike potential.  Small groups of ships with decent AA are particularly punishing.  Some targets are balanced by having poor AA, and they obviously make good CV targets if they position badly.

Separate to AA balance is the system overall though.  Your suggestion to change the AA system to be manually controlled is a very large change, which would require the sort of large balancing changes we have recently seen after implementation.  Realistically something that huge isn't going to happen anytime soon, even if they wanted to do it, which they have said they don't.

[_Blink_Blackwolf]

57 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

There is a massive difference in damage taken from CV's by a well played ship vs a poorly played ship.

Agreed but then again, CVs have a lot more flexibility in what angle they will approach without risking anything(ships have much low speed and turnibg and can potentially expose their broadside trying to dodge CV strike)

57 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

The T10 CV is not immune to T8 CL AA though, and a second strike will likely result in all the planes dying and a possibility of not landing the attack.  That's an awfully successful outcome for a ship two tiers lower.

Why would I go for a second wave? If you watch pro CV players, you'll see that they take the entire squadron to perform only one or two attacks and then return the rest pretty much intact(yes those planes may have lost hp but not shot down). This is effective because AA dmg is spread out among full squad, so the more planes you have, the more chance of individual planes to survive.

I don't understand why you are emphasising this multiple strike wave thing so much...it takes very little time for the CV to come back to you with a fresh squadron, so it is pretty obvious that he wont risk his squad to do a second attack when he can get back to you with another fresh squad shortly afterwards.

57 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

I honestly think AA balance is pretty good right now. 

I don't disagree and I've already explained why. The MM spread puts both CVs and Surface ships in awkward situations where AA disparity is too high.

I personally think that making CV MM to +/-1 will solve 90% of this issue for both CVs and Surface ships

[dejiko_nyo]

28 minutes ago, _TAMAL_ said:

Agreed but then again, CVs have a lot more flexibility in what angle they will approach without risking anything(ships have much low speed and turnibg and can potentially expose their broadside trying to dodge CV strike)

Why would I go for a second wave? If you watch pro CV players, you'll see that they take the entire squadron to perform only one or two attacks and then return the rest pretty much intact(yes those planes may have lost hp but not shot down). This is effective because AA dmg is spread out among full squad, so the more planes you have, the more chance of individual planes to survive.

I don't understand why you are emphasising this multiple strike wave thing so much...it takes very little time for the CV to come back to you with a fresh squadron, so it is pretty obvious that he wont risk his squad to do a second attack when he can get back to you with another fresh squad shortly afterwards.

I don't disagree and I've already explained why. The MM spread puts both CVs and Surface ships in awkward situations where AA disparity is too high.

I personally think that making CV MM to +/-1 will solve 90% of this issue for both CVs and Surface ships

Good players do good plane management. Losing a plane is expensive. On average, a T10 CV takes about 70s-ish to regenerate a plane. Which means approximately means it will regen about 15-ish planes of each type in a match. Depending on squadron size, that means a replenishment of 1-2 squadrons depending on type. Let's use Haku TB as example (as I have Haku and roughly know figures), that means if I lose every single plane I started with, I will only be able to make about 3 x 3 attack runs in the whole game. And that wouldn't take into account not every plane will successfully launch its attack. Yes, you can say you have other bomber types and you should cycle. BUT you have to account for the fact that each type is good against a particular ship type plus the difficulty of landing those needed hits. No sane player is going to waste their planes for a futile run.

The TLDR version is that unless you manage your planes properly, your CV'ing is going to be useless.

And yes, MM needs fixing. My preference for +/-1 is global because CVs are not the only things that suffer from +2 uptier. (*cough*manyt8cruisers*cough*). Plus thinking about limiting CV only would cause MM to have even more fits trying to slot in ships. My understanding of MM's current workings is that if MM was CV +/-1 only, CVs would most of the time face lower tier opponents since MM starts with higher tiers then starts filling in empty slots with lower tiers until they get a full team.

[_Blink_Blackwolf]

16 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

No sane player is going to waste their planes for a futile run.

The TLDR version is that unless you manage your planes properly, your CV'ing is going to be useless.

 

True...and this is also true for all ships. You have to manage your hp, consumables and even salvos properly otherwise you'll be at a disadvantage.

If managed correctly however, any ship can become highly effective. CVs are no exception... main issue is that the interaction is not the same in both cases; one requires skill of both players while the other is basically only dependent on the skill of the CV player.

[Thyaliad]

1 hour ago, _TAMAL_ said:

The MM spread puts both CVs and Surface ships in awkward situations where AA disparity is too high

Yeah WG might want do a global once-over of AA and plane HP and flatten the values out a bit. The disparity between tiers is very big, especially going from Tier 8 to Tier 10. This has led to situations with CVs being borderline OP when top tier but downright frustrating and useless to play when bottom tier.

Take the USN CL line for example.

In terms of constant short > mid > long AA,  the Dallas does 224 > 134 > 76 dps at a hit chance of 77% > 81% > 81%.

Meanwhile the Wooster does 371 > 946 > 248 at a hit chance of 85% > 90% > 90%.

The Wooster's constant long range AA dps does 3x more damage than the Dallas, while its medium AA does a whopping 7x more dps. And this is just the constant AA, not counting flak. Yet a tier 8 CV has a chance of meeting either ship. A tier 8 CV can't be buffed against tier 10 AA without making it too strong against tier 6s.

So how does one balance out the fact that in one match you might face an enemy with 7x more AA than the enemy you fought against in a previous match? (Yes I know the Dallas-Wooster example is a little extreme, but the disparity can be seen for most other lines as well.)