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User_1145141919810

In Matchmaking,Khabarovsk,Udaloi,Tashkent and Kiev should be treated as CL

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The design of "the same amount of DD on each side" intends to ensure every team has the same ability of spotting and capping, thus promote a fairer MM.

However, USSR DD Khabarovsk, Udaloi, Tashkent, and Kiev have CL level concealment value(and they play like CL too). This is a problem for MM, especially when there's only 1 DD per side and no CV.

So IMO MM should make a change.

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I agree that this is a problem. It’s similar to having a 2 radar ships on one team, and none on the other.

A lot of these DD captains have “cruiser captain” mentality. They will not cap, they may spot, but spotting is only a consequence, they will act mostly like a cruiser. They are not unjustified in this, as it is the optimum way to be played, and if they are up against something like the Kagero, they will be easily out spotted and at the mercy of the enemy. They cannot contest. So why is a DD spot given to these ships if they cannot perform the DD primary duties?

Of course, if there are CVs in battle, or 4 plus radar ships, it does not matter, as DDs will not cap anyway.

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The problem lies is that these ships are "in between" the standard classes. They are not dds, yet not cls. Where to put them. The same issues with the BB/CA side. Matchmaker was never meant to handle things at this level.

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6 hours ago, User_1145141919810 said:

The design of "the same amount of DD on each side" intends to ensure every team has the same ability of spotting and capping, thus promote a fairer MM.

However, USSR DD Khabarovsk, Udaloi, Tashkent, and Kiev have CL level concealment value(and they play like CL too). This is a problem for MM, especially when there's only 1 DD per side and no CV.

So IMO MM should make a change.

This discussion is running since 2 years now and honestly WG doesn't care.

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>CL

>Grozovoi

>CA

>Khabavrosk

>BB

>Moskva

>CC

>Stalingrad

>CV

>Krmel??? 

 

Edited by Onlinegamer
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it might be better to create another class for them, treat them as DD first and if there are not enough them to balance, then treat them as CA/CL

really tired about Russian DDs player complain that they do not gave good concealment so they do not cap or even scout...

btw , I think they are too weak now,  I don't think they can fight against the akizuki line and probably British DD, they should get some damage or reload buff for their guns 

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22 minutes ago, Fraxinus_AI said:

really tired about Russian DDs player complain that they do not gave good concealment so they do not cap or even scout...

Power creeped by the features of the new dds. Note that it is the fast, long ranged gunboat branch that is suffering. Frankly, I am not going to be sympathetic towards their predicament. Especially Kharba: long range, fast firing, high hp, super fast dd. Wow. That was so many pros in one line. For the tradeoff of poor concealment. 

The core of the problem is they are not played like traditional dds and tactics need to be adjusted. MM also doesn't help with team balance either.

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1 hour ago, Fraxinus_AI said:

it might be better to create another class for them, treat them as DD first and if there are not enough them to balance, then treat them as CA/CL

really tired about Russian DDs player complain that they do not gave good concealment so they do not cap or even scout...

btw , I think they are too weak now,  I don't think they can fight against the akizuki line and probably British DD, they should get some damage or reload buff for their guns 

<sarcasm>Yeah, the Khaba needs more HE and AP pen. Could prob use an fire chance buff as well</sarcasm>

If you get in a knife fight with a high tier RN/IJN gunboat DD in a Tashkent, Kabob etc you are doing it wrong.

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23 分鐘前,j0e90 說:

<sarcasm>Yeah, the Khaba needs more HE and AP pen. Could prob use an fire chance buff as well</sarcasm>

If you get in a knife fight with a high tier RN/IJN gunboat DD in a Tashkent, Kabob etc you are doing it wrong.

Khabo is also a gun DD (but more like cruiser) cannot fight with the gun boat from RN and IJN, and her concealment make she cannot even get the other DDs
so what is the point of playing her?
scouting others?  lots of the Russian DD player do not even do the scout work.
Playing her as cruiser? then why don't you play cruiser? 
the thing is she is not that strong in DDs fight, buffing her damage and reload but reduce the fire chance so she can fight with the gun boat while did not keep setting CA and BB on fire which do way much more damage than she do now. 

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2 小時前,dejiko_nyo 說:

Power creeped by the features of the new dds. Note that it is the fast, long ranged gunboat branch that is suffering. Frankly, I am not going to be sympathetic towards their predicament. Especially Kharba: long range, fast firing, high hp, super fast dd. Wow. That was so many pros in one line. For the tradeoff of poor concealment. 

The core of the problem is they are not played like traditional dds and tactics need to be adjusted. MM also doesn't help with team balance either.

I personally not a Khabo player, i own the ship but I don't really play it, so might just be my skill is not that good.
 I play IJN DD more (both of shima and haru) so I kind of know how khabo face IJN DD would be.

Comparing to haru:
Is there big difference in range between 13.5 and 12.6? 
both of them have bad rudder, for guns... 4x2 130mm vs 5x2 100mm (1900dmg vs 1200dmg / 4sec with no legendary upgrade vs 2.6sec)
khabo even have lower health point (I know she gets heal but you don't heal during the whole fight and 3640hp just make them to become about even)
concealment 9.7km vs 7.6km  haru can go down to 6.1km which is just about the german DD but about 0.5km larger to the others but how about khabo?
Yes. khabo has better speed and armor I would not deny that. 
dodging the attacks? yes but I also believe you can do it better with mino / henri and other DDs.

To say if a boat is strong or not, we might need test it by player in average skill level, the ideal situation does not always happen. 

I've seen some khabo players that do well in the game, but her exp is still quite low, which means in WG's system she did not do that well as we think.

Edited by Fraxinus_AI
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23 分鐘前,Fraxinus_AI 說:

Khabo is also a gun DD (but more like cruiser) cannot fight with the gun boat from RN and IJN, and her concealment make she cannot even get the other DDs
so what is the point of playing her?
scouting others?  lots of the Russian DD player do not even do the scout work.
Playing her as cruiser? then why don't you play cruiser? 
the thing is she is not that strong in DDs fight, buffing her damage and reload but reduce the fire chance so she can fight with the gun boat while did not keep setting CA and BB on fire which do way much more damage than she do now. 

Honestly speaking, IMO Tashkent should be T10 because it's better than Khaba.

1.Longer gun range

2.Better steering and concealment

3.AP only do 1/10 damage to Tashkent

4.Better torps

Edited by User_1145141919810
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12 minutes ago, Fraxinus_AI said:

I personally not a Khabo player, i own the ship but I don't really play it, so might just be my skill is not that good.
 I play IJN DD more (both of shima and haru) so I kind of know how khabo face IJN DD would be.

Comparing to haru:
Is there big difference in range between 13.5 and 12.6? 
both of them have bad rudder, for guns... 4x2 130mm vs 5x2 100mm (1900dmg vs 1200dmg / 4sec with no legendary upgrade vs 2.6sec)
khabo even have lower health point (I know she gets heal but you don't heal during the whole fight and 3640hp just make them to become about even)
concealment 9.7km vs 7.6km  haru can go down to 6.1km which is just about the german DD but about 0.5km larger to the others but how about khabo?
Yes. khabo has better speed and armor I would not deny that. 
dodging the attacks? yes but I also believe you can do it better with mino / henri and other DDs.

To say if a boat is strong or not, we might need test it by player in average skill level, the ideal situation is not always happen. 

I've seen some khabo players that do well in the game, but her exp is still quite low, which means in WG's system she did not do that well as we think.

Good points that I decided not to spam in my earlier comment. Thanks for doing the hard and dirty work. :P

Kharba performance is limited by her concealment. She cannot function like a traditional dd, but more like a CL as you put it. And yes, 13.5 and 12.6 range is a difference because most dds cannot even counter her with her ability to speed out of range. PLUS if  you configure her with AFT she becomes a nuisance. May not be able to cap, but can cap deny and just cause general nuisance. Why she exists as a dd, only wg knows because of their need for OP soviet boats. To me, she is more of a denial weapon rather than an direct approach ship. As said before, she cannot be played like a traditional dd.

But this comment I like best which applies to all ships: To say if a boat is strong or not, we might need test it by player in average skill level.
The players statistics are skewed by skilled players. A skilled player in any ship can make it better.

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13 minutes ago, User_1145141919810 said:

3.AP only do 1/10 damage to Tashkent

4.Better torps

3 -> Only because WG refused to give that AP mitigation to it and Haru because of all the outcry regarding change in AP mechanics and blahblahblah (I believe the PoV was DDs were getting a nuge buff). 

4. Same issue with YY and Chung Mu. I prefer CM over YY.

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18 分鐘前,User_1145141919810 說:

Honestly speaking, IMO Tashkent should be T10 because it's better than Khaba.

1.Longer gun range

2.Better steering and concealment

3.AP only do 1/10 damage to Tashkent

4.Better torps

same with kitakaze

although I really think akizuki and kita also need to get the nerf or remove the buff of AP damage reduce

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10 分鐘前,dejiko_nyo 說:

Good points that I decided not to spam in my earlier comment. Thanks for doing the hard and dirty work. :P

Kharba performance is limited by her concealment. She cannot function like a traditional dd, but more like a CL as you put it. And yes, 13.5 and 12.6 range is a difference because most dds cannot even counter her with her ability to speed out of range. PLUS if  you configure her with AFT she becomes a nuisance. May not be able to cap, but can cap deny and just cause general nuisance. Why she exists as a dd, only wg knows because of their need for OP soviet boats. To me, she is more of a denial weapon rather than an direct approach ship. As said before, she cannot be played like a traditional dd.

But this comment I like best which applies to all ships: To say if a boat is strong or not, we might need test it by player in average skill level.
The players statistics are skewed by skilled players. A skilled player in any ship can make it better.

yeah agree. 

I think russian DD need higher skill level to play it well or to do things in games,
unlike other DDs, if player do not know how to play, they can just spam trops and HE from some safe places and might still able to do some work (but really dislike players playing DD only use trops and stay away from enemy more than 10km..  which most of the bad shima player do)

 

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The same could be applied on the "supercruisers" like Stalingrad. They are more like BBs than "cruisers" due to their dimensions. Yeah their guns are small, but let's not forget Scharnhorst is treated as a BB with even smaller guns.

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19 hours ago, Sir_Feather said:

The same could be applied on the "supercruisers" like Stalingrad. They are more like BBs than "cruisers" due to their dimensions. Yeah their guns are small, but let's not forget Scharnhorst is treated as a BB with even smaller guns.

While the ‘supercruisers’ can be a problem. I think it is less pronounced than the ‘super DD’ problem.

Supercruisers are not as handicapped as DDs. They can still perform a cruiser role adequately. Cruisers in general being multirole ships, focusing mostly on damage dealing. Lack of concealment and armor is not so much of a problem, as they do not need to be in a position where it is necessary.

Unlike a DD who needs to spot and cap.

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Sitting down here while waiting for numbers to be crunched leaves idle minds, so I was thinking that the devs went around giving the soviets OP dds the wrong way.

They should have made the dds supersmall, with even better concealment, small size to hit and fast. With low caliber but rapid firing guns. In effect, just like the german torpedoboats in dynamo.

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On 3/22/2019 at 1:38 PM, dejiko_nyo said:

Sitting down here while waiting for numbers to be crunched leaves idle minds, so I was thinking that the devs went around giving the soviets OP dds the wrong way.

They should have made the dds supersmall, with even better concealment, small size to hit and fast. With low caliber but rapid firing guns. In effect, just like the german torpedoboats in dynamo.

that will be very [content removed]  
but it may be fun if there is special game mode for these kind of ships(?

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4 minutes ago, Fraxinus_AI said:

that will be very cancer 
but it may be fun if there is special game mode for these kind of ships(?

Yeah, what the Kahbob needs is a hull the size of the v-170. That little b'tard can be a nightmare to hit. And more armour, after all we cannot have the Khaba having less forward hull plating than the upcoming T5 Ru BB can we?

The problem with the Tashkent and Khabob is that they really rely on having another 2 or 3 DDs to do capping / carry out map control and spotting. If the Dd pop is low and you end up in a game as the only DD that can create problems for the entire team if you cannot adapt your playstyle away from trying to burn everything down from 12 - 14km away.

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14 minutes ago, j0e90 said:

The problem with the Tashkent and Khabob is that they really rely on having another 2 or 3 DDs to do capping / carry out map control and spotting. If the Dd pop is low and you end up in a game as the only DD that can create problems for the entire team if you cannot adapt your playstyle away from trying to burn everything down from 12 - 14km away.

You bring up a very important issue there. The lack of adaptability in the team, which to me is a bigger problem than a ship. For what it is called, 'random' isn't so random because in 80% of games the following combinations or part thereof are standard: "DDs run to cap, CAs hide behind islands, BBs snipe from range". The team's inability to adapt to the compositions of both the teams is a major weakness. If you cannot effectively cap, ruin the capping day for the other team. Make the most of your team's advantages. Unfortunately, the majority of players do not think this way and all they think is damage/kills.

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3 分鐘前,dejiko_nyo 說:

You bring up a very important issue there. The lack of adaptability in the team, which to me is a bigger problem than a ship. For what it is called, 'random' isn't so random because in 80% of games the following combinations or part thereof are standard: "DDs run to cap, CAs hide behind islands, BBs snipe from range". The team's inability to adapt to the compositions of both the teams is a major weakness. If you cannot effectively cap, ruin the capping day for the other team. Make the most of your team's advantages. Unfortunately, the majority of players do not think this way and all they think is damage/kills.

I think the problem of standard is caused by the game mode, when the game just released, there is draw and cap is not that important.
But now, if team not getting cap they might lose because they lost all their points / the other team finish the win condition of point/ lose at the end because having less point.

due to this, Khabo cannot really help her team effectually as the other DDs do when there is only one or two DD(s).

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11 minutes ago, Fraxinus_AI said:

I think the problem of standard is caused by the game mode, when the game just released, there is draw and cap is not that important.
But now, if team not getting cap they might lose because they lost all their points / the other team finish the win condition of point/ lose at the end because having less point.

due to this, Khabo cannot really help her team effectually as the other DDs do when there is only one or two DD(s).

Summary: Bad game design. When adding new ships, obviously no one thought about the role a ship would play until it comes out.

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3 分鐘前,dejiko_nyo 說:

Summary: Bad game design. When adding new ships, obviously no one thought about the role a ship would play until it comes out.

I think the idea of khabo is ok , but the IJN/RN gun boat grab khabo's role.

What khabo left is her armor and speed but having about 3km longer concealment than those gun boats...

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11 hours ago, Fraxinus_AI said:

I think the idea of khabo is ok , but the IJN/RN gun boat grab khabo's role.

What khabo left is her armor and speed but having about 3km longer concealment than those gun boats...

That is what happens with power creep. A similar thing happened to IJN torpedoboats with all the radar and anti-dd dds. They cannot do their "role" properly. If you didn't remember or forgot, I'd just like to say that shima's guns were nerfed a few years back and then denerfed because it was performing poorly. And let's not even talk about the torpedo nerfs for the ijn torpedo line.

The same can be said of the german dd line. 2 years ago, it was in the vogue because it had hydro. Now, that role has been taken over by Panasia dds and to a lesser extent, the RN dds.

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