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End Of Destroyers

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Ive noticed at T8-10 games with CV in them and all the DDs are now going suicidal and killing themselves at the start from both sides in a few matches. I think its some sort of protest against what has been happening with the ship type against CV so the trend must be to go YOLO Kamikaze style and die in the 1st few minutes. Recent game in which 8 T10 DDs 4 from each side all die in 6mins. Interesting to see whats going to happen.

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DDs are not usually suicidal but they've run into a bit of a rough patch since those CVs cursed the game with their damn rockets and maneuverable planes. 

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as destroyer main... I'll live, no matter what kind of shit WG throw into game.

cheat program radar? balance breaker CV? Bring it!

if CV in match, only strategy for ijndd like me is to have strong AA ship within 3-4 km radius and go wherever he goes.

US cruiser is ideal choice.

and since I rely on his AA, I'll provide him with my support, smoke, torpedo screening, spot etc.

and hope that at least enemy push hard enough to my torpedo range. (9.6 km)

if he push, I push.

if he camp, I camp

if he fall back, I fall back

if he die... welp, time to find another ship to lean on.

capping? with radar and CV combine that's not a role for DD anymore, only strong AA ship or ship that 'okay even being spot' can cap.

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I don't see to many CV's in the T8-10 group lately, maybe 1 or 2 in 10 games, but above poster is correct. Dealing with CV and radar while trying to cap is RNG suicide, and if you live past 5 minutes you probably will last the game.

T5-7 are still full of CV's (radar isn't such a big problem), so I continue as normal with trying to cap.

You just got to work you way around it all, and accept the 50/50 nature of DD's.

For me its been a good time to start and play CA's and BB's a bit more.

I mostly have premium BB's, as I really wanted to follow DD's right through to 10 first. So far I'm loving the MassyB and the  Mushi, Alabama and Tirpitz are works in progress.

 I certainly have trouble hitting a DD in a BB!!

CA's, well lets say I might have to go back to the lower tiers and build up :)

 

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@PGM991 if you're looking to play with a support ship message me in game, I'd be happy to back you up in Mino or DM! I always like playing support for a DD. Also I agree with what you said, I still play DDs sometimes and I will just keep adapting no matter what WG decides to do with the game.

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DDs killing themselves in protest? Maybe, but more just likely you had a spate of poor players. DDs have always been prone to dying in first 5 minutes at high tier. Simply because many captains still try to rush the cap despite knowing that there are radar ships on the enemy team. (If they don’t know, they should learn which ships have radar, and look at roster. A DD’s game starts form the moment they get to the roster screen). DDs biggest advantage has always been stealth. At higher tiers, the game gets harder, not being spotted is not enough, You must also hide your position from the enemy. As soon as a DD starts capping, he is giving up his position.

 Basically, as others say, you must focus on staying alive for the first half of the game, your power grows the longer you are alive. So basically, avoid capping unless you know where all the enemy ships are and can cap without incident (or have appropriate support), spot enemies, screen DDs, and area control with your torpedos. Smoke firing is fine if not in Radar range, or firing over islands if you are capable.

Once enemy team have been whittled down, that’s when you start capping.

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8 hours ago, blauflamme22 said:

@PGM991 if you're looking to play with a support ship message me in game, I'd be happy to back you up in Mino or DM! I always like playing support for a DD. Also I agree with what you said, I still play DDs sometimes and I will just keep adapting no matter what WG decides to do with the game.

x2, i play mino and salem frequently and usually behind DD 3km to provide AA support and/or engage enemy dd. 

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9 hours ago, Otago_F111 said:

I don't see to many CV's in the T8-10 group lately, maybe 1 or 2 in 10 games, but above poster is correct. Dealing with CV and radar while trying to cap is RNG suicide, and if you live past 5 minutes you probably will last the game.

T5-7 are still full of CV's (radar isn't such a big problem), so I continue as normal with trying to cap.

You just got to work you way around it all, and accept the 50/50 nature of DD's.

For me its been a good time to start and play CA's and BB's a bit more.

I mostly have premium BB's, as I really wanted to follow DD's right through to 10 first. So far I'm loving the MassyB and the  Mushi, Alabama and Tirpitz are works in progress.

 I certainly have trouble hitting a DD in a BB!!

CA's, well lets say I might have to go back to the lower tiers and build up :)

 

i have 70~80% chance deal with cv at T10 match.

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well right now as a DD main , playing T8 - T10 game is a different meta vs time before the rework, but with recent coming Radar Buff ( so they call it a nerf, what a laugh ) this had become even harder life still for DD ,even for mid tier DD the motto is not to PUSH at all ... not unless you got Guns and Cruisers right behind you and willing to do the close support IMMEDIATELY and suppress enemy cruisers, Radars, and no less their guns too ... and not to say provide AA ... 

The way to really excel right now is a good small group formation but the issue on hand is so many guns and cruisers just refuse to formation at all .. still in the mentality that DD and light force need t go up front for them , but then they still stay way out, wide, behind island where they cannot be shoot at but also they cannot have the fire arc to shoot at the enemies. As a DD, the play is now trying to stay stealth at all possible and survive come first before anything ... if not able to contribute then that' it ... the game mechanic made it so , not the player(s) , I just always answer to the team ... you guys come up or I stay back ...

Right now its the team that would PUSH ( with armor and guns ) that will get the victory .. passiveness usually do not work ( though still viable in standard battle mode ) ; before the rework, almost all game mode evolve into killing match, where now the Domination mode actually had the capping and keeping the Area(s) to get points a lot more important .. in that sense I do see the change bring some positive but unfortunately at the expense of too many other negatives.

By any means I reel back my DD gaming, why should I hand myself on a plate to others when simultaneously unable to do much and gather all the hate of my own team ( yes too many time people just cry fault thinking you are not doing your job but they themselves would fail to support the light force doing their job .. still ... well .. ) Or I just play Soviet Gunboat / IJN machine guns and stay way out just lie cruisers do and any guns care to ask me to go I would simply reply, go with me then we go

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14 hours ago, PGM991 said:

if CV in match, only strategy for ijndd like me is to have strong AA ship within 3-4 km radius and go wherever he goes.

and since I rely on his AA, I'll provide him with my support, smoke, torpedo screening, spot etc.

So much this, and not just for IJN, USN DDs also ... considering your smoke is so much more valuable as a shared defense.

Here's the thing which so few players seem to understand:

For every 1 km a DD is away in front of a teammate, the stealth torp distance of an enemy DD is reduced by 1 km. So if a Kagero is 4 km ahead of a Yamato, an enemy Kagero has to stay 9.4 km away to be able to torp undetected instead of being able to close to 5.4 km. If a friendly Kagero is 6 km off the BB's bow, that pretty much eliminates stealth torping threat entirely outside of Asashio, Zao, and Gearing. And from that distance the torps are unlikely to hit anyway.

What I'm trying to get at is you don't have to sit 10-15 km away from your fleet to be valuable as a scout/spotter. There's a huge impact of just sitting in relative safety just a few km in front of the team.

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34 minutes ago, Rina_Pon said:

So much this, and not just for IJN, USN DDs also ... considering your smoke is so much more valuable as a shared defense.

Here's the thing which so few players seem to understand:

For every 1 km a DD is away in front of a teammate, the stealth torp distance of an enemy DD is reduced by 1 km. So if a Kagero is 4 km ahead of a Yamato, an enemy Kagero has to stay 9.4 km away to be able to torp undetected instead of being able to close to 5.4 km. If a friendly Kagero is 6 km off the BB's bow, that pretty much eliminates stealth torping threat entirely outside of Asashio, Zao, and Gearing. And from that distance the torps are unlikely to hit anyway.

What I'm trying to get at is you don't have to sit 10-15 km away from your fleet to be valuable as a scout/spotter. There's a huge impact of just sitting in relative safety just a few km in front of the team.

I agree with every of your statement however, you forgot to consider the economics of the game. Do you think a DD will get a profit by doing the thing you listed? Doing that and you're pretty much in the deficit almost every other round.

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1 hour ago, Rina_Pon said:

What I'm trying to get at is you don't have to sit 10-15 km away from your fleet to be valuable as a scout/spotter.

But what if I'm not sitting 10-15km away from my fleet, but rather my fleet is sitting 10-15km away from me? Please advise Agony Aunt.
- Sad DD.

 

2 hours ago, Mechfori said:

Right now its the team that would PUSH ( with armor and guns ) that will get the victory .. passiveness usually do not work ( though still viable in standard battle mode ) ; before the rework, almost all game mode evolve into killing match, where now the Domination mode actually had the capping and keeping the Area(s) to get points a lot more important .. in that sense I do see the change bring some positive but unfortunately at the expense of too many other negatives.

Push was always the better option before and now, but it has to be balanced with stall depending on whether you are going to win. Many times I have seen a team with a good lead but people are so determined to suicide just for the kills.

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1 hour ago, Rina_Pon said:

So much this, and not just for IJN, USN DDs also ... considering your smoke is so much more valuable as a shared defense.

Here's the thing which so few players seem to understand:

For every 1 km a DD is away in front of a teammate, the stealth torp distance of an enemy DD is reduced by 1 km. So if a Kagero is 4 km ahead of a Yamato, an enemy Kagero has to stay 9.4 km away to be able to torp undetected instead of being able to close to 5.4 km. If a friendly Kagero is 6 km off the BB's bow, that pretty much eliminates stealth torping threat entirely outside of Asashio, Zao, and Gearing. And from that distance the torps are unlikely to hit anyway.

What I'm trying to get at is you don't have to sit 10-15 km away from your fleet to be valuable as a scout/spotter. There's a huge impact of just sitting in relative safety just a few km in front of the team.

in tactical term this is right but this does not take into consideration of what that DD might face and would have to vs what this can bring ( to that DD ) in short very dangerous operation with no return,  and facing danger without the team actually able to provide support :( after that distance cruiser and BB are no longer in effective CLOSE SUPPORT formation ... It is sadly a big gun mentality many who play the BB and CA have but fail to appreciate the danger incurred onto the DD and CL and without actually able to support them right thee right when its needed .. can guns and CA kill the Radar soon as it pops , can their fire power over power the enemy if the situation arise and asked for it ... screening , ever wonder how many DD are killed by fellow DD(s) ... if you do not want to be faced with stealth torps , its the same for DD players

Its easy to ask the light force to do this, do that , and I got it many times but so many is asking for task that put the light force in situations and without the proper backup ... think about it ... and that is why today meta require much tighter formation of a fleet , for AA, for suppressing enemy fires and for pushing. That stay ahead 5 KM is OK only when that DD can stay stealth and this is not going to happen most of the time with Radar, CV, enemy DD(s) ... so asking for that is tactically correct but what I see is most guns and CA had not made the condition that the DD can do that for them.

This is in real world term - exclusion zone - an area where enemies are denied entry so they cannot effectively fire upon friendlies , this is not just for DD and CL but also for BB and CA ... DD and CL can use their torp to deny enemy incursion to a certain distance but that also mean they are exposing their position and directions ( then come the Radar  ) and for BB and CA their duty is to exclude enemy counter measure ( Radar ships, CL and CA's covering fire ) and sadly I seldom see guns and CA doing that as the are too busy farming damage or too hunger for a kill of their own, they want the hunt and they ask for the scout to do their duties but they fail to support the scouts , so in turn what ....  Its reciprocal, wanting the light force to do these utility duties then the BB and CA need to provide utility support to the vanguard also and I am not seeing that now in game ... so in the end as DD/CL main I would just ignore any of such duties when I see the guns not coming up to do theirs and this is frequent

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9 hours ago, dejiko_nyo said:

But what if I'm not sitting 10-15km away from my fleet, but rather my fleet is sitting 10-15km away from me? Please advise Agony Aunt.
- Sad DD.

I LOLed, you got me.

Some games are lost that way. You know the ones: the enemy moves up fast in a nice tight formation and blast through the cap, while your guys straggle out of the spawn and get picked off one by one.

Many games though are lost because the DD is impatient. It takes a bit of skill I guess, to read the map in terms of what the enemy positions mean your team is able to do, in what order, and when. Worse than not being able to read the map however is overextending in the opening minutes of the game, before the enemy ship positions are even known! Even worse still is jumping right into the cap**, giving away their own position to the entire enemy team!!

(** this is not the same as doing it deliberately as a bait-n-switch ploy, knowing it will broadcast your location and draw in the enemy DD.)

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2 hours ago, Rina_Pon said:

I LOLed, you got me.

Some games are lost that way. You know the ones: the enemy moves up fast in a nice tight formation and blast through the cap, while your guys straggle out of the spawn and get picked off one by one.

Many games though are lost because the DD is impatient. It takes a bit of skill I guess, to read the map in terms of what the enemy positions mean your team is able to do, in what order, and when. Worse than not being able to read the map however is overextending in the opening minutes of the game, before the enemy ship positions are even known! Even worse still is jumping right into the cap**, giving away their own position to the entire enemy team!!

(** this is not the same as doing it deliberately as a bait-n-switch ploy, knowing it will broadcast your location and draw in the enemy DD.)

Reading the map is an important skill. As dd you need to know the spots where cruisers like to cap with their radar and make sure you have an obstruction for protection. And an exit strategy. Smoke, camp and cap is fine if you know what is out there sending fishies your way. Playing cruisers, I know what I'd be to ambush dds, so as a dd I expect good cruiser players to be at said spots.

Sometimes your team needs to lure the enemy into revealing positions so that as dd, you can decide how to effectively control the situation. It is like a game of chess.

My point in the original being that the dd is relaying the necessary information but no one is near enough to act on it.

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When submarines come out DD will probably be equipped with deep sea bombs and they're gonna be important in hunting down subs.

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I remembered about discussions about the initial game-play design during the early days of World Battleships  A Player would command a group of ships that lead by a capital ship go into battles, with formations, auto/manual aiming schemes etc.

Later on WG decided to make one player control one ship. yet the whole game dynamic now it moving closer and closer to its initial design meta now.

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Why not just replace DD with Merchant/Cargo ships, then transfer the DD player to this ships.

What people keep telling DD have to do at the moment, was to stay back, hide and stick with the group for protection. DD better be cargo ship then

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4 hours ago, Shalsy said:

When submarines come out DD will probably be equipped with deep sea bombs and they're gonna be important in hunting down subs.

It will be the end of BB and CA. DD vs CV vs Sub. Balance restored. Just like how BBs became extinct in the real world.

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On 3/14/2019 at 6:33 AM, PGM991 said:

as destroyer main... I'll live, no matter what kind of shit WG throw into game.

cheat program radar? balance breaker CV? Bring it!

if CV in match, only strategy for ijndd like me is to have strong AA ship within 3-4 km radius and go wherever he goes.

US cruiser is ideal choice.

and since I rely on his AA, I'll provide him with my support, smoke, torpedo screening, spot etc.

and hope that at least enemy push hard enough to my torpedo range. (9.6 km)

if he push, I push.

if he camp, I camp

if he fall back, I fall back

if he die... welp, time to find another ship to lean on.

capping? with radar and CV combine that's not a role for DD anymore, only strong AA ship or ship that 'okay even being spot' can cap.

So basically you are saying that to play DD you have to follow around some other player and hope like you know what that he knows what he's doing?

Sounds like a pretty flawed meta to me. I was a DD main for a long time but with the combination of radar spam and cv spam its just not as fun anymore.

This CV meta is a joke, you cant do anything but lemming train as a pack because a decent cv picks off the stragglers. 

I don't play this game to follow everyone else on my team (especially when Im playing DD) like im a sheep and frankly a meta that dictates you have to do that in order to survive is just garbage.

This whole CV thing has ALWAYS been garbage. It's NOT ok for a CV to farm damage off you while you cant return fire at him. When is WG going to get the message?

Look at top tiers atm, most games you are lucky if you have 2 DD's because most of us DD guys don't enjoy it anymore.

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4 hours ago, dieselhead said:

So basically you are saying that to play DD you have to follow around some other player and hope like you know what that he knows what he's doing?

Sounds like a pretty flawed meta to me. I was a DD main for a long time but with the combination of radar spam and cv spam its just not as fun anymore.

This CV meta is a joke, you cant do anything but lemming train as a pack because a decent cv picks off the stragglers. 

I don't play this game to follow everyone else on my team (especially when Im playing DD) like im a sheep and frankly a meta that dictates you have to do that in order to survive is just garbage.

This whole CV thing has ALWAYS been garbage. It's NOT ok for a CV to farm damage off you while you cant return fire at him. When is WG going to get the message?

Look at top tiers atm, most games you are lucky if you have 2 DD's because most of us DD guys don't enjoy it anymore.

Ohhh, now there's an idea.

Totally unrealistic, but how about CVs lose health every time one of their planes is shot down? Now we can damage them every time they attack us.:Smile_hiding:

Eh? We'll see who complains about random nature of AA then! :Smile_trollface:

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31 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

Ohhh, now there's an idea.

Totally unrealistic, but how about CVs lose health every time one of their planes is shot down? Now we can damage them every time they attack us.:Smile_hiding:

Eh? We'll see who complains about random nature of AA then! :Smile_trollface:

You are not alone. Before 0.8.0, I remember reading somewhere many times people asking should aircraft re-spawn cost the health of the CV or  even credits

Edited by tsuenwan

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11 hours ago, dieselhead said:

So basically you are saying that to play DD you have to follow around some other player and hope like you know what that he knows what he's doing?

Sounds like a pretty flawed meta to me. I was a DD main for a long time but with the combination of radar spam and cv spam its just not as fun anymore.

This CV meta is a joke, you cant do anything but lemming train as a pack because a decent cv picks off the stragglers. 

I don't play this game to follow everyone else on my team (especially when Im playing DD) like im a sheep and frankly a meta that dictates you have to do that in order to survive is just garbage.

This whole CV thing has ALWAYS been garbage. It's NOT ok for a CV to farm damage off you while you cant return fire at him. When is WG going to get the message?

Look at top tiers atm, most games you are lucky if you have 2 DD's because most of us DD guys don't enjoy it anymore.

image.thumb.png.004da2b716db677d7a7f218021bae067.png

Here is  DD stats in last 21 days, I actually think DD still has it's place in the game, and a good DD became even more important than before. 

Having played a lot of CV games as well as all 4 class of ships, I think BB are having tougher time than DD. In fact, I will have no problem strike any BB no matter where they position or their skill level. I do have problem the deal with smart DD who position correctly and also certain AA spec DD are scariest thing against CV other than Mino and Worcester.  

I did not play any DD with DFAA since rework, however I had a game in Akizuki with double T8 CV MM, both CV keep came after me and I end up shot down 46 planes.

By the way, one of my observation for new CV meta, if one side manage to steal a cap, it is so damn hard for the other side to take it back. This is not only limited to DD doing the capping, in fact the best thing to steal cap is any ship with good AA and smoke. Just my 2 cents to whoever having hard time with new CV meta.

Edited by sunlo2013

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I do agree, but sadly most CA and BB are still in the mindset of staying out, staying wide, and staying back ( and mostly hide behind a good chunk of rock ), and tight group formation on a PUSH is now key to capping, as stealthiness no longer  made it , and that is one of the very reason why DD player are not happy by any measure ... their one critical play is about stealth and WG take that away , their main damage dealing ( most of them ) is the torp and again WG nerf that again and again ( without giving something else back to balance it out wile buffing all others ). Yes DD can still play a role but that does not mean playing DD is any fun now .. actually its been a PITA for a long time but the rework made it way pass being ( add your own definition of a limit here ) ... in fact I think the real ( aka RN mostly ) CL suffer even worse ( vs the CV ) since they had not the armor nor the speed and lacking maneuverability compare to DD and their aerial detection range of course do not save them from anything.

The meta is still the same from a DD player POV, WG is all about Big guns, catering to the CV / BB  ( and CA to some extent ) crowd so they can have their field days;  but fail to provide for the light force equal and same rewarding game play and in turn put them on a plate to be served. and no one like to be being served in this manner ... the decline of number of DD in game pretty much tells, matters not whether a DD can still contribute or not ... what matter is DD game play is no fun, too much pain, too far and few in between reward. Why bother, even as a DD main I had to say - right now its not about proper game play or contributing ... its about surviving first and anything else come after that ..... ( disclaimer : I do not spec my DD for DFAA , why bother , if I want to do AA there are better ships that can do the job )

Edited by Mechfori
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