Jump to content
You need to play a total of 10 battles to post in this section.
TheURLguy

Almost Historical: Can Destroyers Withstand Battleships in the Open?

19 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

1
[ABS]
Member
19 posts
13,427 battles

Against Bismark and against Ashigara it was a flotilla (Approx. 6 DDs) against them. Not one!. At Guadalcanal in that particular fight with Hiei it was at least 4 DDs. Atlanta missed ramming Hiei by 20 feet. YES 20 feet. Much confusion due to running into each other at point blank range before detection.  So I think after detection a DD in real life is toasted by a BB. At Leyte Gulf all escorts sank in Taffey 3 with only damage to cruiser Suzuya. All damage other then this was done with CVE Planes. Also Guadalcanal fight between South Dakota, Washington and Kirishima. 4 US DD and all sunk.  I think DDs in the game are to protected. Yes if someone sees them there easy prey but that's because there to well protected. People want to sink them as soon as there spotted. How can you play against a ship type that most of the time you cant see and can just sit back and fire torpedoes at will. Now even aircraft have a tough time spotting them.  When you see their torpedoes it is usually to late to avoid them if you could. People have to remember a DD is not as strong as a BB so if it takes hits its gone. They either develop their play style with that in mind or do not play DD. Making them invincible is not the answer. 

 

Edited by DennisJP
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
1,086 posts
4,123 battles
10 hours ago, BIGCOREMKP0I said:

No, but Carriers can Kill destroyers with Rockets!

Maybe in the higher tiers, tiny tims etc, but at tier 6 cv?. no.

TBs do the best job at sinking DD's. 

Currently using tier 6 RN CV, and its rocket planes will only detect the DD giving me 1/2 a second to press the button to launch an attack, and then the rockets take so long to prepare for attack, that once they ARE ready and armed, I again have 1/2 a second to fire the rockets.

Not much room for a laggy server to work with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
177 posts

So this is how we justify making DDs almost impervious to BB fire. The DD players cried loud and long enough that you nerfed every BB against them (and now they are crying about CVs and you will again capitulate to them). Its BS that in the game a DD can still sneak up on and kill a BB in just one salvo of torps but BBs now hardly damage DDs with their incredibly slow loading main guns. So now if you are lucky enough to hit one of these fast and nibble ships (that's if you are lucky enough to even detect it first) then you might just scratch its paint work before it fires a usually inescapable spread of torps at you. DDs have all the advantages now in this game against BBs but the reality is that their should be accurate consequences for a DD getting itself caught in a BB's crosshairs in that your DD becomes a smoking pile of scrap metal.

 

15 hours ago, TheURLguy said:

Doubt it? We'll prove it one way or another using history!

As for this comment I say; even a broken clock is right twice a day. If you analyzed every BB vs. DD action in history I think you'd find DD can't normally "withstand battleships in the open".

Edited by ShaddowAU
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
407
[FORCE]
Member
1,029 posts
10,066 battles
3 hours ago, ShaddowAU said:

So this is how we justify making DDs almost impervious to BB fire. The DD players cried loud and long enough that you nerfed every BB against them (and now they are crying about CVs and you will again capitulate to them). Its BS that in the game a DD can still sneak up on and kill a BB in just one salvo of torps but BBs now hardly damage DDs with their incredibly slow loading main guns. So now if you are lucky enough to hit one of these fast and nibble ships (that's if you are lucky enough to even detect it first) then you might just scratch its paint work before it fires a usually inescapable spread of torps at you. DDs have all the advantages now in this game against BBs but the reality is that their should be accurate consequences for a DD getting itself caught in a BB's crosshairs in that your DD becomes a smoking pile of scrap metal.

 

As for this comment I say; even a broken clock is right twice a day. If you analyzed every BB vs. DD action in history I think you'd find DD can't normally "withstand battleships in the open".

Actually yes there were some examples of BB vs. DD action that proved otherwise.

Scharnhorst and Gneisenau intercepted HMS Glorious & 2 destroyers (HMS Acasta & Ardent) which were en route to Scapa Flow. HMS Ardent had her boiler room heavily damaged by the German BBs' secondary battery which reduced her max speed. She was sunk after she got totally crippled. HMS Acasta which stayed escorting Glorious for the most part of the engagement; decided to leave HMS Glorious alone in order to fend off the German BBs. Now more visible to the enemy, HMS Acasta got under heavy fire as she attempted to execute torpedo attacks on the BBs. HMS Acasta was eventually sunk right after her successful torpedo hit on Scharnhorst.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
793
[AUSNZ]
Beta Tester
1,071 posts
9,395 battles
5 hours ago, ShaddowAU said:

Its BS that in the game a DD can still sneak up on and kill a BB in just one salvo of torps but BBs now hardly damage DDs with their incredibly slow loading main guns.

BB guns are incredibly slow loading?  So how fast do the torpedoes you are complaining about load?

Also, if a DD sneaks up on you and kills you with a salvo of torps, you've stuffed up in many different ways, and deserve to sink.

 

5 hours ago, ShaddowAU said:

DDs have all the advantages now in this game against BBs but the reality is that their should be accurate consequences for a DD getting itself caught in a BB's crosshairs in that your DD becomes a smoking pile of scrap metal.

A single BB AP overpen does about 7% of a DD's health - and they will never bounce.  If you do a full pen on another BB you're doing about 4-5% of their health, plus they can bounce a heap of those shells.  Not to mention if you have the correct ammo loaded for DD's and hit them with a HE shell, that's about 10% of their health bar per shell, and you'll knock out half the modules on the ship.  I think the rewards for hitting a DD are fine, and anything under 10km (which most DD's have to be under to even operate correctly), makes them extremely easy to hit.

BB's have it easier that any other class in this game.  I play them all the time when I want a relaxed and easy game with not much thinking involved.  It's laughable someone could actually think of something to complain about while sailing them.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27
[UNRYU]
Member
81 posts
6,565 battles
5 hours ago, ShaddowAU said:

So this is how we justify making DDs almost impervious to BB fire. The DD players cried loud and long enough that you nerfed every BB against them (and now they are crying about CVs and you will again capitulate to them). Its BS that in the game a DD can still sneak up on and kill a BB in just one salvo of torps but BBs now hardly damage DDs with their incredibly slow loading main guns. So now if you are lucky enough to hit one of these fast and nibble ships (that's if you are lucky enough to even detect it first) then you might just scratch its paint work before it fires a usually inescapable spread of torps at you. DDs have all the advantages now in this game against BBs but the reality is that their should be accurate consequences for a DD getting itself caught in a BB's crosshairs in that your DD becomes a smoking pile of scrap metal.

 

As for this comment I say; even a broken clock is right twice a day. If you analyzed every BB vs. DD action in history I think you'd find DD can't normally "withstand battleships in the open".

If you are at least a half decent BB player and have enough map awareness, then dodging a torp isn't even hard. Remember that it takes usually 30s+ for a torp hit a target from 6k, take ages to reload, deal max dmg of 23k (shima) and other nations torp dmg is around 15k not taking into account the torpedo bulge which reduce dmg from torp (around 25% dmg reduction). Even with the fast reload of ognevoi (55sec), a BB can pump 2 full salvoes during that time. A good salvo from a BB will reduce a DD by half its hp even with AP. An overpen from BB AP does approximately 1k+ dmg and to a DD that will be almost 8-10% of the DD hp pool. At high tier, almost every battleship can reliably hit a DD at 8-10km with ease. So if a BB are oblivious enough to get hit by a full salvo of torp, then either the DD player is very good or the BB player is very incompetent. So i dont know why are you so angry at DDs when it can be just as easy to blab DD in  a BB and vice versa. A competent DD will pwn BB and a competent BB will pwn DD. That's basically the best interaction in this game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
177 posts
18 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

BB guns are incredibly slow loading?  So how fast do the torpedoes you are complaining about load?

Also, if a DD sneaks up on you and kills you with a salvo of torps, you've stuffed up in many different ways, and deserve to sink.

 

A single BB AP overpen does about 7% of a DD's health - and they will never bounce.  If you do a full pen on another BB you're doing about 4-5% of their health, plus they can bounce a heap of those shells.  Not to mention if you have the correct ammo loaded for DD's and hit them with a HE shell, that's about 10% of their health bar per shell, and you'll knock out half the modules on the ship.  I think the rewards for hitting a DD are fine, and anything under 10km (which most DD's have to be under to even operate correctly), makes them extremely easy to hit.

BB's have it easier that any other class in this game.  I play them all the time when I want a relaxed and easy game with not much thinking involved.  It's laughable someone could actually think of something to complain about while sailing them.

You talk about slow loading, your argument for poor DDs is that BBs firing HE rounds take around 10% of your health per shell, well that is about 10 shells you need to land on a DD (a fast moving and weaving target) with shell dispersion and slow load times, that is usually a fair amount of salvos a BB needs to land some shell from to kill a DD. A DD does not have to land 10 torps on a BB to sink it, usually 2-3 torps will do the job from just a single salvo. You also say if a DD can sneak up on, a BB has stuffed up and you deserve to sink, well I argue the counter in that if a DD gets itself detected with a BB pointing its torrents in your general direction you stuffed up and deserve to be turned into a smoking pile of scrap metal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27
[UNRYU]
Member
81 posts
6,565 battles
11 minutes ago, ShaddowAU said:

You talk about slow loading, your argument for poor DDs is that BBs firing HE rounds take around 10% of your health per shell, well that is about 10 shells you need to land on a DD (a fast moving and weaving target) with shell dispersion and slow load times, that is usually a fair amount of salvos a BB needs to land some shell from to kill a DD. A DD does not have to land 10 torps on a BB to sink it, 1. usually 2-3 torps will do the job from just a single salvo. You also say if a DD can sneak up on, a BB has stuffed up and you deserve to sink, well I argue the counter in that if a 2. DD gets itself detected with a BB pointing its torrents in your general direction you stuffed up and deserve to be turned into a smoking pile of scrap metal.

1. This is just ignorance, the highest dmg torp, the shima does 23k dmg. 3 hits mean 69k. Even a conqueror with the lowest hp pool of 82.9k will not sink from that. And not to take into account the damage saturation and torpedo damage reduction. All other DDs' torp does (not IJN ones) does around 16-18k dmg per torp. You do the math.

2. That is usually the case if the DD doesn't smoke up so I don't see the point here.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
177 posts
15 minutes ago, exter001 said:

If you are at least a half decent BB player and have enough map awareness, then dodging a torp isn't even hard. Remember that it takes usually 30s+ for a torp hit a target from 6k, take ages to reload, deal max dmg of 23k (shima) and other nations torp dmg is around 15k not taking into account the torpedo bulge which reduce dmg from torp (around 25% dmg reduction). Even with the fast reload of ognevoi (55sec), a BB can pump 2 full salvoes during that time. A good salvo from a BB will reduce a DD by half its hp even with AP. An overpen from BB AP does approximately 1k+ dmg and to a DD that will be almost 8-10% of the DD hp pool. At high tier, almost every battleship can reliably hit a DD at 8-10km with ease. So if a BB are oblivious enough to get hit by a full salvo of torp, then either the DD player is very good or the BB player is very incompetent. So i dont know why are you so angry at DDs when it can be just as easy to blab DD in  a BB and vice versa. A competent DD will pwn BB and a competent BB will pwn DD. That's basically the best interaction in this game.

Are we playing the same game. Have you played as a BB in high tier matches? DD will sneak round and many fire 2 salvos at you from slightly different directions, thus if you turn to avoid the first lot of torps you are usually turning into, or are boxed in for their second set and there is no escape possible. Travel time of torps is irrelevant, if the game did you the curtesy of making DDs firing torps become visible, even for a split second so you are aware torps have been fired at you and from what general direction, then it might be a factor. WG in its brilliance decided to make most BB nearly blind, without radar or hydroacoustic search (which is stupid as capital ships are the ones most likely to have them, and most BB have radars turning and burning on the ship model but apparently they're all broken) so in the slowest moving and slowest turning ships in the game you have maybe a split second to react and turn when you detect torps, and many times it won't save you anyhow. Yeah BB are just sit back, put your feet up and read a mag during a match because its so laid-back for us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27
[UNRYU]
Member
81 posts
6,565 battles
7 minutes ago, ShaddowAU said:

Are we playing the same game. Have you played as a BB in high tier matches? 1. DD will sneak round and many fire 2 salvos at you from slightly different directions, thus if you turn to avoid the first lot of torps you are usually turning into, or are boxed in for their second set and there is no escape possible. Travel time of torps is irrelevant, if the game did you the curtesy of making 2. DDs firing torps become visible, even for a split second so you are aware torps have been fired at you and from what general direction, then it might be a factor. WG in its brilliance decided to make most BB nearly blind, without radar or hydroacoustic search (which is stupid as capital ships are the ones most likely to have them, and most BB have radars turning and burning on the ship model but apparently they're all broken) so in the 3. slowest moving and slowest turning ships in the game you have maybe a split second to react and turn when you detect torps, and 4. many times it won't save you anyhow. Yeah BB are just sit back, put your feet up and read a mag during a match because its so laid-back for us.

I can say the same and ask you if you ever played high tier DD matches but let's not go there. Keep it civilized man. Let's walk out of this conversation with both of us having something to think about.

1. This will never happen if a BB face only 1 DD and if you are boxed in by 2 DDs then the BB is out of position. This is why if you anticipate a torpedo, you either bow in or leg it, not turn the other broadside to DD.

2. A good BB player will approximate the position of a DD and angle appropriately, sure the BB might eat one in the bow but at least he's not dead.

3. Harugumo laughs at you, joking aside, sure its the slowest moving but you'll realize how hard and waste of time it is to torp a running away BB (tbh 30knts is not slow). This is also a reason you plan ahead while playing a BB, so that you can position yourself to nullify or mitigate the most damage

4. It will save you most of the times

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
177 posts
48 minutes ago, exter001 said:

I can say the same and ask you if you ever played high tier DD matches but let's not go there. Keep it civilized man. Let's walk out of this conversation with both of us having something to think about.

1. This will never happen if a BB face only 1 DD and if you are boxed in by 2 DDs then the BB is out of position. This is why if you anticipate a torpedo, you either bow in or leg it, not turn the other broadside to DD.

2. A good BB player will approximate the position of a DD and angle appropriately, sure the BB might eat one in the bow but at least he's not dead.

3. Harugumo laughs at you, joking aside, sure its the slowest moving but you'll realize how hard and waste of time it is to torp a running away BB (tbh 30knts is not slow). This is also a reason you plan ahead while playing a BB, so that you can position yourself to nullify or mitigate the most damage

4. It will save you most of the times

First yes I have played as a DD in high tier and yes it no walk in the park either, it takes a lot of skill to play DDs well, but a skilled DD player should not be invincible to a BB but, with all the advantages given to DDs in the game, some of them also are.

1. Yes it does happen, if in some situations a DD has a small delay in the firing of their two salvos at a BB, if done skillfully the two groups cross tracks a flat diamond pattern and their is no escape for the target in the middle.

2. So DD players can plainly see BBs on the map (as most have large detection ranges) so you guys can move around undetected knowing pretty well where most enemies are and yet a BB player is meant to use some magical sixth sense, or a mythical third eye, or maybe the Force to detect the hidden movements of DDs and anticipate an attack before it happens. Maybe if I pray to the great Wargaming god he might grant me such powers but I doubt it as he is a cruel and greedy god.

3. So you give one obscure example of where a slow BB's speed doesn't matter against DD torps and this somehow mitigates my point completely? Yes a BB player need to use care and map awareness to avoid unnecessarily giving DDs a easy shot at them but this dose change the fact, as I said, a BB is virtually blind in this game. DD players are given all the best tools and the information to win the DD vs BB battle in the game.

4. No it won't always.

Edited by ShaddowAU

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27
[UNRYU]
Member
81 posts
6,565 battles
6 minutes ago, ShaddowAU said:

First yes I have played as a DD in high tier and yes it no walk in the park either, it takes a lot of skill to play DDs well, but a skilled DD player should not be invincible to a BB but, with all the advantages given to DDs in the game, some of them also are.

1. Yes it does happen, if in some situations a DD has a small delay in the firing of their two salvos at a BB, if done skillfully the two meet in like a flat diamond pattern and their is no escape for the target in the middle.

2. So DD players can plainly see BBs on the map (as most have large detection ranges) so you guys can move around undetected knowing pretty well where most enemies are and yet a BB player is meant to use some magical sixth sense, or a mythical third eye, or maybe the Force to detect the hidden movements of DDs and anticipate an attack before it happens. Maybe if I pray to the great Wargaming god he might grant me such powers but I doubt it as he is a cruel and greedy god.

3. So you give one obscure example of where a slow BB's speed doesn't matter against DD torps and this somehow mitigates my point completely? Yes a BB player need to use care and map awareness to avoid unnecessarily giving DDs a easy shot at them but this dose change the fact, as I said, a BB is virtually blind in this game. DD players are given all the best tools and the information to win the DD vs BB battle in the game.

4. No it won't always.

1. Do you realize this is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE to happen as long as the DD speed is slower than the torp speed

2. So you expect a BB to be able to see a DD as well? so how are the DD going to perform then?

3. I can give you another example, have you ever been chased down by a good BB player? If you even try to engage, you'll be bleeding speed left and right. and why are you referring to 1v1 again when this is a team game

4. We can agree to disagree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
177 posts
3 minutes ago, exter001 said:

1. Do you realize this is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE to happen as long as the DD speed is slower than the torp speed

2. So you expect a BB to be able to see a DD as well? so how are the DD going to perform then?

3. I can give you another example, have you ever been chased down by a good BB player? If you even try to engage, you'll be bleeding speed left and right. and why are you referring to 1v1 again when this is a team game

4. We can agree to disagree

1. What? so it is impossible to fire 2 torp salvos that cross paths at the target? That happens even if the DD normally fires both salvos straight after the other, only then both salvos meet the target at almost the same angle. If you are travelling in the right direction and add a delay to firing the crossing angle increases making it harder for the target to escape. This clearly does not work if the DD is stopped in the water or if you are travelling parallel (or close to) the track of your target. I've seen so many DDs pull off this trick so I don't know what scenario you are envisioning but it is clearly not the same as the one I am talking about.

2. I never said BBs should be able to see DDs the same as they see BBs. I originally made the point that BBs cannot see when a DDs fires torps at them, to which you implied a good BB player should just know where DDs will be and be prepared for their attack to which I called BS. Many times a DD will go undetected for part of a match and suddenly torps are coming at you from your flanks, there is no way to know where every DD is on the map at all times (maybe with some dodgy mods you might be able to) and counter them when BBs are effectively stumbling around like blind moles in the dark.

3. You new example still does not counter my original point about BBs being the slowest and least maneuverable class in the game. Again you are using example of either you or your torps chasing down a BB from behind, this is not what I was talking about. If in a BB you suddenly detect torps coming at you, say from the beam for example, the handling characteristics of a BB make it very hard to avoid them, as apposed to other classes. Also my 1v1 reference is a figurative one as the entire topic is about DD vs BB.

4. Agreed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
5 posts
3,159 battles

Destroyers are usually first to sink...if you lay down a smoke screen for your team, you will get badly damaged...after sending off your torpedoes, you must try to escape before that smoke dissipates? Trying to take a base is usually a fruitless endeavor! KLM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
2,382 posts
7,238 battles
On 3/11/2019 at 10:07 PM, BIGCOREMKP0I said:

No, but Carriers can Kill destroyers with Rockets!

i though it was skip bombing who are nailing dd, not rockets...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
260
[NFB]
Member
1,262 posts
11,788 battles
On 3/12/2019 at 2:19 AM, DennisJP said:

When you see their torpedoes it is usually to late to avoid them if you could.

Well, if you drive a BB and don't change course or speed, yes. That's why you change course and speed.

And of course, when DD's are spotted momentarily or torps from a particular direction have missed you, you know there is a DD. So play accordingly.

Any BB player who thinks DD's are so well protected and boohoo my BB is not, well, play DD yourself. That has two benefits. A. They learn DD tactics and can avoid getting surprised by DD's in many situations. B. They may change their opinion about DD's in the game to something a bit more realistic.

DD's are pretty powerful and if played well, can turn a match to victory, no doubt. However, all ship classes have strong and weak sides.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×