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Rina_Pon

0.8.0.1 changelog

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To allow you to adapt your Commanders and ships to the new carrier gameplay as comfortably as possible, from February 8 to February 11, you’ll be able to retrain your Commanders, redistribute their skill points and demount modernizations for free. This event includes all Commanders and ships, regardless of specialization or class.

Changelog: 
In Update 0.8.0.1 we will carry out balance changes and improvements of aircraft carriers and AA stats.

  • To reduce the attacking and spotting potential of Attack Aircraft against destroyers in high-tier battles, the number of aircraft in the squadron was changed to 9, and in the attack group to 3. The changes affected the aircraft carriers   VIII Lexington,   VIII Shokaku,   X Midway,   X Hakuryu.
  • Increased the height which returning aircraft need to reach in order to become invulnerable to AA fire. This will allow ships to fire longer on returning aircraft and will help to counter the tactic in which the player gives the order to the squadron to return immediately after the first attack group’s run (“F” key by default).
  • Maneuvering among the AA explosions allows you to reduce the damage received from air defense, even while in the AA range of ships with powerful air defense. We redistributed the efficiency of air defense between the constant damage taken and the puffs of damage from explosions - the efficiency was increased for the former and decreased for the latter. This will keep the tactics of dodging explosions still effective, but it will not allow planes to stay too long in the range of air defense without taking significant losses, especially when attacking a formation of ships. 
  • Changed several features of the Japanese torpedo bombers. Now, if during the preparation for the attack, the attack group maneuvers, your aim will not stabilize (aiming cone stops narrowing). And when maneuvering during an attack run - begins to widen. In order to carry out an effective attack, you need to preemptively choose the line of attack and try not to make last-minute maneuvers.[Updated]
  • Reduced the chance of flooding by approximately a third for the Japanese aerial torpedoes in tiers IV-VIII, and by half for German (tier VIII) and Japanese (tier X) aerial torpedoes.
  • Significant changes have affected the alternative plane torpedo module for   X Hakuryu. The attack run preparation is now longer, and more difficult - the parameters of the aiming were changed and the angles of the torpedo spread were increased even when aiming is at its most accurate. In addition, the delay before the start of a new attack is increased. We have significantly changed the characteristics of torpedoes: reduced speed, increased detection radius and arming time.[Updated]
  • The speed of all aircraft when returning to the aircraft carrier is reduced.[Updated]
  • To increase the effectiveness of attacks, we added resistance to AA damage for bombers at the time of readiness to attack (when the aiming indicator turns green). In this phase of the attack, all bombers will receive 30% less damage.
  • Bug fixes: the aiming for the stock attack aircraft on the carrier   VI Ranger is now similar to the aiming for all American attack aircraft. The characteristics of the basic 'Fighter' consumable for   V Emerald are brought to the same value as 'Fighter II' and the minimum speed of the stock Japanese bombers of all tiers does not exceed the minimum speed on the researchable bombers.
  • Short-range AA defenses now include guns up to 30 mm. This change will combine weak medium-range AA defenses with short-range AA defenses, strengthening the latter and removing the zone where the effectiveness of anti-aircraft guns was low. This will affect ships such as, for example, the cruisers Atlanta, Pensacola, Dallas and battleships Colorado and Arizona.[Updated]
  • If the ship has no 30 mm AA guns, medium-range AA defenses start at 1 km. These ships' AA configuration will now be emphasized if you can't shoot planes inside of a 1km range.[Updated]
Edited by Rina_Pon
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The continuous damage AA change is substantial. It feels much reliable.

Now BFT is kinda useful now..

I haven't tried (and dare not XD cos I'm noob in CV ) CV yet, not sure what does it feel like right now..

There are ships which are defenseless below 1km, but their medium range AA are kinda scary.

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Compare the AA values for T7 vs T8.

T7 and below AA is a joke now. Happy times for T6 CVs

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It addresses all the main points. Maybe too much, maybe not enough, we'll see - but it's a good start. Even if you disagree you can always play T7, which seems to be in a really sweet spot right now: not too many CVs (typically 1 per match last night) and mostly Ryujo and Ranger so no great threat if they do show up.

I'm enjoying being able to both re-spec and retrain my captains for free. Taking advantage of that to do some housekeeping, moving some 14-15 point IJN captains from mid tier cruisers to high tier DDs. Free module demounts are also useful.

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13 minutes ago, Rina_Pon said:

It addresses all the main points. Maybe too much

'Maybe' too much?

The AA is designed around CV captains actively avoiding flak so as not to take huge damage.  When you release ordnance (which will obviously be in AA, since you're attacking a ship), your planes are instantly transferred to AI control in 'return home' mode, which is exactly the same as if you pressed recall.  Since they nerfed the recall, this means your planes then spend 10 seconds flying through AA, and AI control does not avoid flak.  The result?  All your planes die, even if you've flown perfectly up till that point against a lone target.

So basically a CV can choose to attack targets that aren't DD's and be deplaned in about 5 minutes, or they can solely go after DD's and have a chance of their planes surviving.  This means DD's will either not play at all, or the ones that do play will stick nice and close to other ships.  The game play this produces removes the most dynamic and interesting part of the game, which is outplaying your opponent through superior positioning.

DD's need to be able to operate at arm's length from the group or the game ceases to function.  Many ships (the entire French cruiser and BB lines for example) are designed to out-position and out-flank the enemy, they also cannot function.  Anyone who happens to think the Yammy/Musashi is the pinnacle of WoWS game play is probably thinking everything is working great right now!

Essentially the game is still broken, just in a different way than before.  They need to pull back a bit on the recall nerf, and significantly nerf AA.  They also need to (still) remove Radio Location from CV's, and they need to solve the issue of planes dying after an attack or recall while not under the players control due to flying through flak clouds.  Perhaps make it so that flak clouds don't do damage to planes that are under AI control?

Basically we need to get to a position where strong or grouped AA is reasonably effective, but CV's can attack targets without losing their squadron every time.  DD's also need to be much harder to find (ie no RL!) so they can operate away from groups.

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53 minutes ago, Rina_Pon said:

It addresses all the main points. Maybe too much, maybe not enough, we'll see - but it's a good start. Even if you disagree you can always play T7, which seems to be in a really sweet spot right now: not too many CVs (typically 1 per match last night) and mostly Ryujo and Ranger so no great threat if they do show up.

I'm enjoying being able to both re-spec and retrain my captains for free. Taking advantage of that to do some housekeeping, moving some 14-15 point IJN captains from mid tier cruisers to high tier DDs. Free module demounts are also useful.

Have you looked at the AA values on T7? Get in a T8 game and good luck. In fact It feels right now that T6s can strike with impunity. Somethings definitely off with the AA values for mid tier now.

And F key still seems to be an issue, was in a T10 game and watched a DM get 79 kills, and the T10 CV could still throw successive full strength strike waves at him - this was end game. Too hard to tell from that one game, but it certainly seemed like F key is still a thing.

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24 minutes ago, j0e90 said:

Have you looked at the AA values on T7? Get in a T8 game and good luck.

Have they been nerfed in the hotfix? In 0.8 at least, T7 ships seem to be pretty solid against T6 planes. They struggle against T8 planes, but that's how it's supposed to work.

As far as I can see, the hotfix only increases the power of ship AA, with the exception of the 30% reduced damage to planes "readying" their attack. (a change which seems really arbitrary to me, but whatever...)

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Hakuryu sucks big time now.

Got to loose torps from 1.8-2.0kms away, too easy to dodge considering their speed of 50 or 55 knots, and now only drop 3.

And the aim time is too big, and the penalty for adjusting aim pretty much ruins any chance of hitting, but hey time will tell.

DBs seem to be off target now too, will have to investigate further.

Saipan rockets are just a complete waste of space, give her 2 torp squadrons or DBs please, and an extra plane during drops.

I want to trade in Saipan, but waiting and wondering when Graf Zeppelin will be for sale?!.

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Given the playerbase have the pitchforks well and truly out now, overnerf-now-buff-later is probably the right way go.

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No matter how weak air attack now became, Aircraft is a more efficient platform to search and spot quickly and wider. Aircraft ignores island and no LOSs

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9 minutes ago, Rina_Pon said:

Given the playerbase have the pitchforks well and truly out now, overnerf-now-buff-later is probably the right way go.

WG should have better balanced the game with careful game design and proper/comprehensive testing. Those are professional quality works. 

WOWS is not a open source project, it shall not and can not rely on free community contributors for all the basic game testing work. That is not how a professional game or software development company suppose to work.

Just look at how Blizzard (Not the Activsion-Blizzard now) used to advertise their job positions and the quality of their games.

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16 minutes ago, tsuenwan said:

Aircraft ignores island and no LOSs

This was true pre-0.8.0, but is no longer the case.  Aircraft cannot spot and cannot be spotted when there is an island between them and a ship.

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6 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

This was true pre-0.8.0, but is no longer the case.  Aircraft cannot spot and cannot be spotted when there is an island between them and a ship.

The speed and range of aircraft still make it a lot easier to scan the area than a DD though

Edited by tsuenwan
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No matter how air power is nerfed/weaken. It still present as a disruptive factor to the surface engagement dynamics.

What WG did then and now is quite similar to the pre-WWII Japanese naval combat imaginary model, Aircrafts were there to harass capitals ship but not to dominate.

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Sadly, planes were and now still dominating the capital ships. 

Remember the time of 2 x 6 torps by Midway into a broadside Yamato ?
Cross torp formation and you have no way to escape ? 

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1 hour ago, tsuenwan said:

WG should have better balanced the game with careful game design and proper/comprehensive testing. 

This is, by far, the biggest change to the WoWS gameplay mechanics in the last two years.

It's commendable - and amazing once you really start to think about it - that WG polished it as far as they did just on the PTS. And it's also commendable that the 0.8.0.1 hotfix made as many adjustments as it did, and arrived as quickly as it did. The new CVs are, on the whole, fine: The fundamentals are not broken, what remains to be fixed lies within the realm of balance tweaks. (and I am surprised as anyone that I am able to say that with a straight face)

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37 minutes ago, Rina_Pon said:

This is, by far, the biggest change to the WoWS gameplay mechanics in the last two years.

It's commendable - and amazing once you really start to think about it - that WG polished it as far as they did just on the PTS. And it's also commendable that the 0.8.0.1 hotfix made as many adjustments as it did, and arrived as quickly as it did. The new CVs are, on the whole, fine: The fundamentals are not broken, what remains to be fixed lies within the realm of balance tweaks. (and I am surprised as anyone that I am able to say that with a straight face)

I am sorry, I have seen similar or more change by many  softwares or games are better QAed and polished than what WG released in these 2 patches.

Although there is nothing technically broken, I felt the fundamental game model were not well defined or not even complete. These are the jobs of game designer and testers. More than one person in their u-tube video (zoup, notser etc)mentioned that the community testers did not inform WG about Hakuryu exploits and use it at their advantage. How can any software professional blame their users?

WG work lack many refinement were also reflected in their way of implementing Radar, Hydro and AFK penalties. I can see they did not fully utilize capabilities available in the BigWorld Engine. and I don't want to talk about their support team here now.

I could have lost my job if I released my softwares/systems like WG did.

Edited by tsuenwan
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When the pitchforks are out, you better get things right. Over/under nerf/buffing now is not an option because the masses will still flay you. 

As for 'most substantial changes in years'. This was poorly executed and tested. *cough6weekstesting* New ships get 6 month.

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4 hours ago, Moggytwo said:

'Maybe' too much?

The AA is designed around CV captains actively avoiding flak so as not to take huge damage.  When you release ordnance (which will obviously be in AA, since you're attacking a ship), your planes are instantly transferred to AI control in 'return home' mode, which is exactly the same as if you pressed recall.  Since they nerfed the recall, this means your planes then spend 10 seconds flying through AA, and AI control does not avoid flak.  The result?  All your planes die, even if you've flown perfectly up till that point against a lone target.

So basically a CV can choose to attack targets that aren't DD's and be deplaned in about 5 minutes, or they can solely go after DD's and have a chance of their planes surviving.  This means DD's will either not play at all, or the ones that do play will stick nice and close to other ships.  The game play this produces removes the most dynamic and interesting part of the game, which is outplaying your opponent through superior positioning.

You answered your own question, where the answer is provided before the question...did you notice? Yes, they have nerfed the recall, this doesn't mean you cannot attack...this means that if you want to keep your planes alive, you will have to maneuver your way out of the flak after dropping ordnance and THEN press F to recall them. That way, their AI control will not fly through AA anymore. I hope I made it clear :Smile_Default:

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I think most players are advocating for fair play.

Yes we recognize that CVs played a deciding factor during WW2, but for god's sake this is an arcade SIM.
People have to remember CV is in a league of its own cuz obviously they can do multiple things at the same time, and at most times sadly, does it better than what most surface ships does.

And thus more care and thoughts need to be in place to ensure the game is balanced out for most players.
Devs are simply over reacting to whatever the player base is putting out and obviously they didn't do their share of the work and push it out to everyone to do the stress testing.

All in all, I don't pity WG at all for all the shit they are receiving cuz they rightfully deserve this shitstorm.

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4 hours ago, Moggytwo said:

This was true pre-0.8.0, but is no longer the case.  Aircraft cannot spot and cannot be spotted when there is an island between them and a ship.

Lol somebody downvoted you for telling the truth. Here's an upvote to balance it out. :Smile_medal:

As for the F key thing, I think WG and most players dont want it to be a get-out-of-jail-free card. I believe a solution is simple: planes which have their dropped their ordnance can leave faster than those planes that didn't (they are faster and lighter). Or they take less damage (represented by being more agile after dropping their load).

This would solve the problem of too many planes getting shot down after their attack run. If CVs want to return their unused aircraft, they would want to to leave the flak area before hitting F.

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2 hours ago, _TAMAL_ said:

You answered your own question, where the answer is provided before the question...did you notice? Yes, they have nerfed the recall, this doesn't mean you cannot attack...this means that if you want to keep your planes alive, you will have to maneuver your way out of the flak after dropping ordnance and THEN press F to recall them. That way, their AI control will not fly through AA anymore. I hope I made it clear :Smile_Default:

It seems you are under a misapprehension as to how the mechanic works. What you are saying is impossible with the current game design. 

As soon as you click to release ordnance, the AI takes control of the aircraft with no further input from the player. You do not have the option of flying your aircraft out of the flak, and as the AI takes over in the heaviest flak area, and does not avoid the flak, all your aircraft die since they have now introduced a long delay before they are invulnerable. 

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21 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

It seems you are under a misapprehension as to how the mechanic works. What you are saying is impossible with the current game design. 

As soon as you click to release ordnance, the AI takes control of the aircraft with no further input from the player. You do not have the option of flying your aircraft out of the flak, and as the AI takes over in the heaviest flak area, and does not avoid the flak, all your aircraft die since they have now introduced a long delay before they are invulnerable. 

Well, if you are cycling through your entire squadron by using every attack group in a squadron then you are supposed to lose planes. I mean, how do you possibly expect to last that long inside AA anyway? That just proves that something is not right. 

What I was trying to say only applies to the 1st or 2nd attack run(or maybe 3rd, if you have 4 in total). Just as we used to play carriers in 0.8.0...send a squad, carry off one or mayb two attacks until your HP tanks, then send them back repeat with another squad, you get the point. With the changes in 0.8.0.1, all you have to do is use one less attack run and manually take your planes out of danger before pressing F...this will fix the plane loss issue. And to compensate for the return speed nerf, you just have to play closer(which is a very good change to force CV players closer, because it lets the receiving end to have some opportunity to punish the CV player if he doesn't position correctly).

Another thing you can try, and this is coming from the NA forum posts, is : Reverse-F-Tactic. All you need to do is dump the ordnance of your initial attack waves into water and take the rest of the squadron to your target(depending on opposing AA power, ths can consist of 1 or 2 remaining waves). This will not only minimize unnecessary losses, by the time you compete run and return to your CV, that particular squad will be ready to go again. This ensures a continuous flow of the same squad.

Edited by _TAMAL_
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46 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

Lol somebody downvoted you for telling the truth. Here's an upvote to balance it out. :Smile_medal:

As for the F key thing, I think WG and most players dont want it to be a get-out-of-jail-free card. I believe a solution is simple: planes which have their dropped their ordnance can leave faster than those planes that didn't (they are faster and lighter). Or they take less damage (represented by being more agile after dropping their load).

This would solve the problem of too many planes getting shot down after their attack run. If CVs want to return their unused aircraft, they would want to to leave the flak area before hitting F.

As for the F key thing, I've already proposed a sound solution in my own thread, which is:

Add "Aircraft Fixing Time" along with the "Rearm Time" that is already in game. "Aircraft Fixing Time" would account for the repairing time of damaged planes while "Rearm Time" would account for planes that have been lost entirely. We already have health bars for aircraft which change in color. Make it so that the planes that get back to the ship take some time to get repaired based on their color, i.e. something like 5 sec for Yellow hp planes, 10 sec for Orange and 15 sec for Red hp planes that have successfully returned to the carrier after pressing F. This would have easily solved the "F spam" issue even without the nerf issued in 0.8.0.1 hotfix. 

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10 minutes ago, _TAMAL_ said:

Well, if you are cycling through your entire squadron by using every attack group in a squadron then you are supposed to lose planes.

All of your planes, every time? That's balanced is it. 

You also seem to be saying that if you manage to fly your unused planes all the way out of the flak and keep some of them alive, you can then have the ability to get them back to the CV. Once again, planes you have not attacked with. If you choose to attack with them (not that they'll live that long), then you get to give them a glorious and guaranteed death. 

Also, I am well aware of the tactic of only taking your last wave in, I posted here about it earlier today. Clearly its desperate times when you have to resort to that however, and I'm pretty confident that's not the design intent. 

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