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Sir_Numpty

Reasons why New Carriers have ruined the Fun in WoWs

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Hi Everyone,

I've been playing quite a lot of ships since the new patch and here are the reasons why the new carriers have taken the fun out of the game:

1. Harassment: It doesn't matter whether you're in a BB, CA or DD, if a carrier player sets their sights on you, there is nothing you can do. You can dodge a lot of their attacks, but they'll wear you down. It takes so long to dodge and get back on your previous course, that by the time you do, the next way of planes is moving in. Don't even get me started for when both carriers attack you. This ain't fun.

2. Buggered before the battle begins: I can't count how many times I've finally gotten into main gun range for a BB only to have burnt my heal skills and still only have about 25% of my BB's health left. That ain't fun.

3. Consumables too slow: Whilst the damage that the planes do is minimal, its the fires and flooding that cause the real damage. Unfortunately you don't want to burn your repair skill as there will be another wave of planes behind that you'll need it for.

4. No strategic manoeuvres: Because the spotting range of the planes is HUGE, no one can sneak around the map and try and surprise the enemy with a flanking movement. As a result EVERYONE camps somewhere and just tries to slug the enemy down from range.

5. DD's redundant: Its impossible for DDs to do anything now as they are constantly spotted by the planes. Even if the planes themselves don't hit them, there is a constant stream of fire from every other ship that means DD's are a waste of time.

6. AA is useless: I was in a battle in a Des Moines, I had a Musashi and another T9 BB with me. We were being hounded by planes. Despite our combined AA the planes were still dropping their torps, rockets and bombs. Sure they were dying but they were getting hits.

 

I am really disappointed that WarGaming have put this patch in without refining the glaring issues with it. Whilst  it has certainly gotten people playing carriers, it has been ill thought out, ruined the fun for everyone else and screwed a lot of the fun game play that previously existed. Well done WarGaming, impressive effort to stuff your game! I burnt my T10 carrier in protest and will be sledging every Carrier player in the game (friend or foe) until this is fixed.

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For a First timer on WoWs forums it is very sensible post.

So As for your DM example Musashi has no real AA before patch so CV players would argue on that. But yeah all the other points are True and everyone who played the game after the patch faced it.

But WG now is still trying to push the patch saying they will tweak and change a few things I feel that they're being Ignorant about how massively they've failed with this rework.


I'm saying Massively failed because of the time they took for the rework and still end up with so many flaws even after having 2-3 Testing Clients, 1 Public Testing Client.

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@Sir_Numpty Fixes incoming https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/181880-080-first-cv-rework-tweaks-and-changes/?tab=comments#comment-4269682

@Aaditya_AJ I don’t think WG are being ignorant, or have failed. This was always what they planned. The CV rework is not complete. As they have stated since they planned to go live, they cannot test and balance everything on the test servers. Test servers are a complete different environment from live servers, and with a small population, cannot gather as much data. This is a major change, even months and months of testing (during which they mostly spent getting the basic mechanics working) is not enough to fully create an entirely new system. They’ve reached the point where they can no longer improve it on test servers, so they’ve essentially turned the live servers into test servers.

Is the current game a huge mess? Yes, but it was always going to be. Is it more difficult? Yes, but again, it was always going to be. The big change is that you have CVs in every game. Think, Would it have been much different if suddenly we had CVs in every game under the old RTS system? Maybe not to AA ships, but certainly to the rest.

At the end of the day, WG want people to play this game, enjoy it, and spend money on it. If the current majority does not do that because of the rework, it will change. But the rework and balancing isn’t done yet, and probably won’t be done for months.

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6 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

Is the current game a huge mess? Yes, but it was always going to be

Gotta love your sense of realism :Smile_teethhappy:

 

1 hour ago, Sir_Numpty said:

5. DD's redundant: Its impossible for DDs to do anything now as they are constantly spotted by the planes. Even if the planes themselves don't hit them, there is a constant stream of fire from every other ship that means DD's are a waste of time.

They are now. The only differences so far are CVs themselves don't have to get in danger to attack but they also can't cap points. There is no aggressive, capping-ASAP DD anymore if a DD separates himself from a larger group and tries to cap.

There are a few things too: a CV squadron has the same detection radius as a cruiser and spotting range as a DD. So an aircraft squadron is basically a light cruiser?

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I wouldn't say DDs are redundant, though their role is indeed greatly reduced.

Instead of rushing forward to the caps at the start of the game, I find myself staying near friendlies and trying to avoid enemy planes until I can find an opportunity to dart into the cap. I don't enter the cap unless I have smoke ready.

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1 hour ago, Aaditya_AJ said:

how massively they've failed with this rework

Oh come on.  A few inevitable balance issues and you think they've massively failed?  It was blatantly obvious with such massive changes that there would be balance problems.  It's also clear that WG know this, and planned to see what those issues were, before putting out balance changes to fix them.  They will continue to do so over the coming months, until the game is well balanced again.  It will not take that long to get to this state.

Meanwhile, the main issues with RTS CV's (excessive influence over the battle; massive skill discrepancies between CV's causing extremely one-sided battles; ability to dev strike repeatedly and easily; CV game play that was boring, difficult to learn, and completely different to the rest of the game; extremely low CV population) have all been fixed with this change.  If you look at the design goals of the CV rework, it has actually been a massive success.  CV's are now fun to play, they can't dev strike people at all, they can't dominate the other CV, and lots of people are playing them.

The balance changes will be fixed.  The game will be overall much better than it was pre-rework.  Have patience.

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From last evening's results, I found I seemed to do very well under the new CV playstyle. Did well with Fuso, Zao, Ibuki. On the weekend I did well with Fletcher, Benson, Furutaka, and Shiratsuyu too.

I put a foot wrong once or twice, enemy planes arriving to spot my Mogami earlier than I expected, but outside of that 4 CV games aren't harder than games with 0 V, just different. The plays are longer, pushes more deliberate and coordinated. Basically, you have to learn to move together with other ships. If you are a DD, stick very close. Solo work is punished heavily.

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15 minutes ago, Rina_Pon said:

From last evening's results, I found I seemed to do very well under the new CV playstyle. Did well with Fuso, Zao, Ibuki. On the weekend I did well with Fletcher, Benson, Furutaka, and Shiratsuyu too.

TFW Fuso's flak is too good I can't even get near enough to attack. 

The weirdest thing I've seen in this patch is how some ships with undeniably underwhelming AA suite became aircraft killers out of the blue. Orion, Fuso and once in my Ryujo, Akatsuki.

 

Should I cry?

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23 minutes ago, Rina_Pon said:

The plays are longer, pushes more deliberate and coordinated. Basically, you have to learn to move together with other ships. If you are a DD, stick very close. Solo work is punished heavily.

Honestly though, this has always been the case with CVs, even before the rework. 

It was just that the general playerbase are too uncoordinated to pull something like that off.

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1 minute ago, Moggytwo said:

Have patience.

I would but same time I'm losing my premium time because of their blunders. And now I have free time to play it.

Apart from CVs and AA thingy they've changed CE which was a good change I acknowledge that, Also they've made good changes on ships like sims, colorado, nagato, izumo. Now are you talking about that? if you're so positive then talk about it.. don't try to deny what has been done wrong.

And also @Sub_Octavian himself quoted that CVs could be limited to 1 player per team and as per WG 1 CV per game is Ideal. so why so much emphasis on that. By adding it you're making life of other 3 classes of player's life miserable.

Also Acknowledge that CV players wanted WG to balance out the Loadouts and difference between the 2 lines not to outright change the whole thing It was fine before they just had to make few tweaks.

Now WoWs is well established game as in itself, Lets say for an example assume it's like an established city divided into 4 sectors CV, DD, BB, CL/CA You want to work on CV's part of city you can do it in that single sector by not causing much trouble to the other 3 sectors But what has happened is they are causing trouble to all the sectors made their life as hard as possible and obviously the people in it are gonna get angry. because it is effecting them so much.

Also the Idea of CVs having so much power on the outcome of the game is complete utter BS. I can say even The Verge's PC build was better than this because they took a guy who didn't know anything about building a PC and made him build one. But with 4-5 years of experience with the game and not knowing the things side effects it is gonna cause is pretty laughable. It took 3-4 days for Ichase to fully take advantage of the flaws.

Infact there are so many bugs in port UI no one wants to change it even after 3 years of game and with this patch they've become worse.

If you want to be on the change bandwagon stay on it make a post about how good the patch is write about it and look for positive replies =_=.

1 hour ago, Grygus_Triss said:

@Sir_Numpty Fixes incoming https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/181880-080-first-cv-rework-tweaks-and-changes/?tab=comments#comment-4269682

@Aaditya_AJ I don’t think WG are being ignorant, or have failed. This was always what they planned. The CV rework is not complete. As they have stated since they planned to go live, they cannot test and balance everything on the test servers. Test servers are a complete different environment from live servers, and with a small population, cannot gather as much data. This is a major change, even months and months of testing (during which they mostly spent getting the basic mechanics working) is not enough to fully create an entirely new system. They’ve reached the point where they can no longer improve it on test servers, so they’ve essentially turned the live servers into test servers.

Is the current game a huge mess? Yes, but it was always going to be. Is it more difficult? Yes, but again, it was always going to be. The big change is that you have CVs in every game. Think, Would it have been much different if suddenly we had CVs in every game under the old RTS system? Maybe not to AA ships, but certainly to the rest.

At the end of the day, WG want people to play this game, enjoy it, and spend money on it. If the current majority does not do that because of the rework, it will change. But the rework and balancing isn’t done yet, and probably won’t be done for months.

then why make people pay for an undone game? And while I payed for it it was pretty established game. Also was running Server Competitions, Server Tournaments.
 

Any game when it has turned competitive wouldn't do such massive game changes. And Competitive players are not even doing Random battles anymore they're sticking to ranked where these CVs are not available to be played. If Ranked battles weren't introduced all the competitive players would have dumped playing the game altogether. Competitive players are basically hardcore game lovers who are dedicated to the game.

Players who are just there to derp around and those who only play CVs are going on about "yeah I'm fine with the changes" and what not. Also whatever Sub_Octavian said it just changes only for CV's..

He didn't explain how to spec to counter them saying WG isn't really thinking that other players have to dedicate 11 points of their 19 points of commander skills just to counter the whatever mess they've introduced to the game.

I'll say this again stop arguing that this game is still developing it isn't, It is already developed game with new content being added.

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Players have to raise their own standards in order to stop this from happening.We have accepted too many mediocrity that they think they could get away with it.

I will say this again this “rework” changes nothing desparity between skill is still there.

Changes in perspective doesn’t magically turned every players around the globe being as capable as each other.

Instead of fixing where it all starts, they just roll with it knowing the players will just accept it.

How many times have we been optimistic about the next patch and hope for it to be “better” !?

I can tell you its countless and this has to stop.

We give them enough chances its time for them to be the one stepping down.

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It's clear WoW is loved by many people and are highly passionate about our wonderful game.

However, many of the reactions have been OTT, as if WG devs have removed one (or both) of their arms. Yes, the game has changed for many players who always play randoms in type X or ship Y etc., but at the same time, how many of these people particpated in the several public Betas over the last 4 months? I was on the PTS for 0.8.0 rev 2 at peak time a day or 2 after release and there was only a small number of us there.

In an ideal world, all balance issues and potential abuses would be eliminated before full release. WG fully recognised that this was not possible and announced beforehand that they planned to implement balances post release. The WoW community is diverse and will definetly find and exploit issues in any release for selfish and altruistic reasons. This will not necessarly happen in PTS releases.

My only criticism is that they allowed too many CVs per side until the inevitable initial hot-fixes were carried out. I understand that they wanted everyone to have a go at the new CV play, but the imbalance CV issues far outweigh salt from users having to wait for CV matches.

WG will address vast majority of issues in the coming weeks and months and should provide an even better experience for all.

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3 hours ago, Paladinum said:

The weirdest thing I've seen in this patch is how some ships with undeniably underwhelming AA suite became aircraft killers out of the blue. Orion, Fuso and once in my Ryujo, Akatsuki.

Did you face Normandie?

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4 hours ago, Aaditya_AJ said:

Infact there are so many bugs in port UI no one wants to change it even after 3 years of game and with this patch they've become worse.

They not only completely ignored the UI issues, they went ahead and broke some of the more stable UI elements without any reason whatsoever... -_- 

Remember changing the Division Window? 

And I'm not even bringing the recent Detectibility change(which was a feature that they saw as a "bug"). 

It is really amuzing that the perspective of the playerbase and WG's own perspective on their own game is so very different. Reminds me of how they have turned WoT into one of the most toxic online games in history

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2 hours ago, mr_glitchy_R said:

Did you face Normandie?

No, but that ship does have a lot of DP guns. Fuso, on the other hand...

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11 hours ago, Aaditya_AJ said:

So As for your DM example Musashi has no real AA before patch so CV players would argue on that. But yeah all the other points are True and everyone who played the game after the patch faced it.

But WG now is still trying to push the patch saying they will tweak and change a few things I feel that they're being Ignorant about how massively they've failed with this rework.


I'm saying Massively failed because of the time they took for the rework and still end up with so many flaws even after having 2-3 Testing Clients, 1 Public Testing Client.

THanks for the response. I worry that Wargaming say they will 'tweak' as it needs a hell of a lot more than just a tweak. I agree its a huge fail. A lot more testing was required and I think they were just lazy.

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9 hours ago, Moggytwo said:

 A few inevitable balance issues and you think they've massively failed?  .........

Meanwhile, the main issues with RTS CV's (excessive influence over the battle; massive skill discrepancies between CV's causing extremely one-sided battles; ability to dev strike repeatedly and easily; CV game play that was boring, difficult to learn, and completely different to the rest of the game; extremely low CV population) have all been fixed with this change.  If you look at the design goals of the CV rework, it has actually been a massive success.  CV's are now fun to play, they can't dev strike people at all, they can't dominate the other CV, and lots of people are playing them.

My main issue here Moggy is the overall effect that its had on the game. Its totally stifled the gameplay of every other type of ship. I accept that there will always need to be rebalances, but I think WG were just lazy/rushed the patch out with this because some of the issues appear pretty blatant.

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The new cv meta is not dissimilar to the old arty gameplay in wot, in that it now makes passive play the safest play.  We have gone backwards.

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2 minutes ago, RalphTheTheatreCat said:

in that it now makes passive play the safest play.

BBs shooting from corners of the map or from the edge of their range is the still-omnipresent meta.

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7 hours ago, scottme said:

It's clear WoW is loved by many people and are highly passionate about our wonderful game.

However, many of the reactions have been OTT, as if WG devs have removed one (or both) of their arms. Yes, the game has changed for many players who always play randoms in type X or ship Y etc., but at the same time, how many of these people particpated in the several public Betas over the last 4 months? I was on the PTS for 0.8.0 rev 2 at peak time a day or 2 after release and there was only a small number of us there.

In an ideal world, all balance issues and potential abuses would be eliminated before full release. WG fully recognised that this was not possible and announced beforehand that they planned to implement balances post release. The WoW community is diverse and will definetly find and exploit issues in any release for selfish and altruistic reasons. This will not necessarly happen in PTS releases.

My only criticism is that they allowed too many CVs per side until the inevitable initial hot-fixes were carried out. I understand that they wanted everyone to have a go at the new CV play, but the imbalance CV issues far outweigh salt from users having to wait for CV matches.

WG will address vast majority of issues in the coming weeks and months and should provide an even better experience for all.

I think you make a good point here Scotty but this is inline with the title of my post. By this I mean that I agree that peoples reactions are OTT however, I believe as the title of the post says, that the changes have actually removed the fun in a number of areas (particularly BBs and DD's). That doesn't mean its stuffed it for everyone, but if you have X hours of downtime a night and you choose to relax and play ships only to find that the fun is gone out of it. Then its not going to improve your mood at all. But I 100% agree in your point (and I'm paraphrasing) that this is just a game and we should treat it as such. I posted this topic here as my first post to the forum because I felt a mistake had been made which meant players suffer. Just my opinion but for me it was important to raise my voice in case WG took some points from it. I'm happy to keep playing or to take a break and to see how it evolves. WG can take my comments on board or totally ignore them. Either way, I'm sleeping well tonight.

Thanks for your reply!

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1 hour ago, Paladinum said:

BBs shooting from corners of the map or from the edge of their range is the still-omnipresent meta.

This is but its pretty hard for them to hit anything from that range. And it used to be tough for them to have spotted something unless there was a daring DD. 

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1 hour ago, RalphTheTheatreCat said:

The new cv meta is not dissimilar to the old arty gameplay in wot, in that it now makes passive play the safest play.  We have gone backwards.

I think thats quite a good analogy. I don't think they ever really got the arty's right, but I remember what you're talking about. WG just need to develop a better counter for the CV's, at the moment there isn't one.

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11 hours ago, Thyaliad said:

I wouldn't say DDs are redundant, though their role is indeed greatly reduced.

Instead of rushing forward to the caps at the start of the game, I find myself staying near friendlies and trying to avoid enemy planes until I can find an opportunity to dart into the cap. I don't enter the cap unless I have smoke ready.

I totally agree with you, and if the aim for WG is to try and make the DD's more apprehensive then this is a good move. I didn't really think there was a problem with the DD's before but I don't see the data so maybe there was. However IF there wasn't a problem with the DD's gameplay and WG has messed it up accidentally then thats a shame. Its certainly impossible to make it anywhere on the map undetected for any meaningful period of time. 

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10 hours ago, Rina_Pon said:

From last evening's results, I found I seemed to do very well under the new CV playstyle. Did well with Fuso, Zao, Ibuki. On the weekend I did well with Fletcher, Benson, Furutaka, and Shiratsuyu too.

I put a foot wrong once or twice, enemy planes arriving to spot my Mogami earlier than I expected, but outside of that 4 CV games aren't harder than games with 0 V, just different. The plays are longer, pushes more deliberate and coordinated. Basically, you have to learn to move together with other ships. If you are a DD, stick very close. Solo work is punished heavily.

Yeah I've had some good nights and some bad. For the most part if you play well you're rewarded, however there are a lot more instances where there is seemingly little you can do. I've seen many a destroyer hang back with the aim of pushing forwards in the later game. When they do and start capping they are instantly set upon by the planes and every CA on the map. They have almost no chance now.

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1 hour ago, RalphTheTheatreCat said:

The new cv meta is not dissimilar to the old arty gameplay in wot, in that it now makes passive play the safest play.  We have gone backwards.

I don't know about WoT but this new Changes have surely made players more passive.

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