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9mm1n

It's not a feature, it's a bug. [concealment change 0.8.0] [Poll added]

Poll regarding detection debuff mechanism. Please read post for details  

51 members have voted

  1. 1. Did you thought "break LoS- reset detection" was a "bug"

    • Yes, it's obvious that the debuff mechanics was faulty in recent patches.
    • No, I've always thought the debuff mechanics change was a feature.
  2. 2. Would you like to keep the current concealment debuff mechanics or revert back to the old mechanics as WG intends to with 0.8.0?

    • Current mechanic as in 0.7.12 (Debuff ends once line of sight is broken)
    • Old mechanic as in 0.8.0(Debuff stays for full 20 sec duration regardless of line of sight loss)

68 comments in this topic

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3 hours ago, Grygus_Triss said:

The note is very vague.

Someone mad a presentation of Before (""bugged"") and After ("fixed") version of the bloom time debuff mechanics. The "bugged" version is when the video starts and you can see the new mechanism starting 0:25 of the video

Hope this helps.

 

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What basically WG do is screw one of the key game play element and mechanism in the game, concealment, this had been eroded over time to keep pleasing the big guns and that big guns oriented mentality , the introduction of Hydro, Radar, Aerial spotting, more Radar, and coming Radar buff and torpedo nerf, ad now this ... they are basically telling DD and CL Player to not to play the game because they take away the ship's basic ability to defend itself ( stay stealth ) and its ability to go offense ( sorry your torp just will not work, its much weaker now ).

Game Balance, that is a joke

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Thanks @9mm1n

That video makes it very clear.

I do not like this change.

I often leave shooting until the last moment before going behind an island knowing that as soon as I go out of LoS my detection range will be reset.

Doing this takes map awareness and watching enemy positions.

It requires thought and intelligent play.

I guess WG doesn't want to encourage thought and intelligent play.

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2 minutes ago, Mechfori said:

keep pleasing the big guns and that big guns oriented mentality

The worst player group in the game, regardless of servers.

Please keep pandering to them, WG.

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1 hour ago, Max_Battle said:

Thanks @9mm1n

That video makes it very clear.

I do not like this change.

I often leave shooting until the last moment before going behind an island knowing that as soon as I go out of LoS my detection range will be reset.

Doing this takes map awareness and watching enemy positions.

It requires thought and intelligent play.

I guess WG doesn't want to encourage thought and intelligent play.

So... what about smoke, does it work the same way. That is, if you smoke up, break line of sight, then glide out of smoke, will you still be at Max detection range? It is often a tactic of DDs to use smoke to break los, then run, rather than staying in smoke, especially RN DDs.

Other than that. Don’t like this change. How dare they insult us by calling a a “bug fix”.

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26 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

So... what about smoke, does it work the same way. That is, if you smoke up, break line of sight, then glide out of smoke, will you still be at Max detection range? It is often a tactic of DDs to use smoke to break los, then run, rather than staying in smoke, especially RN DDs.

Other than that. Don’t like this change. How dare they insult us by calling a a “bug fix”.

Yeah what about UK DD?

Short smoke to break LoS is what they do.

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anyone try shooting ramdomly without any apposing team spotting? is detection bloom remain for 20 sec or shrink back immediately?

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And what about UK cruisers ?  How about all the US cruisers/DD, if one should not be allowed to shoot and dodge why should they be allowed to fire behind island when everyone else cannot retaliate

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8 minutes ago, PGM991 said:

 

anyone try shooting ramdomly without any apposing team spotting? is detection bloom remain for 20 sec or shrink back immediately?

Pretty sure if you are not spotted immediately after firing your guns it will shrink back to base-detection range

At least, as far as my memory serves me, flamu has demonstrated using this mechanism to check if anyone is nearby. And I've certainly used it in the recent weeks

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1 hour ago, Grygus_Triss said:

So... what about smoke, does it work the same way. That is, if you smoke up, break line of sight, then glide out of smoke, will you still be at Max detection range? It is often a tactic of DDs to use smoke to break los, then run, rather than staying in smoke, especially RN DDs.

I don't think that's an important case here. An RN DD who smokes up to break line of sight will still go undetected regardless of the bloom status. If they retreat out the back of their smoke screen they will stay undetected, just there will now be a slightly greater chance of being re-spotted for a few seconds before the bloom resets.

Stop shooting a few seconds before popping your smoke - problem solved. You'll be cold before you exit your smoke.

The whole things strikes me as a huge storm in a teacup. And most people are misunderstanding what WG is going to do and what effect it will have. Ships that go behind an island will still go undetected instantly. It's just that the bloom - the chance of being reacquired should LoS be re-established - won't instantly cool off.

Likewise if you fire your guns in spawn, your bloom will last for 20s even if you aren't detected. You will stay "hot" (easy to detect from long range) for a bit.

I'm solidly in favor of the fix. It's totally minor, hardly important, but it's a good change.

Edited by Rina_Pon

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8 minutes ago, Rina_Pon said:

The whole things strikes me as a huge storm in a teacup.

This is not a storm in a teacup.  This is reverting what is one of the best changes they have ever made to the game. 

It's not that we don't know how to play around the old mechanics - we had to put up with it for ages.  It's that the new mechanics introduced in 0.7.9 enabled much more dynamic play and a clear knowledge of what would happen every time you broke LOS.

With the reversion, you now have to go back to guessing when your bloom time is up.  You want to get out and retreat right now, but is your bloom time still up?  Pop out only to find it had a couple of seconds left and you get blapped for half your health and that can be the difference between winning and losing the game.

Have a look at the polls on the EU and NA forums - they both have 1200-1300 votes with a 94% (!) response of keep the current mechanics.  Has there ever been this much consensus on an issue?

I honestly am not sure how a team decided that reverting this change was a good idea.  What are they trying to achieve exactly?  Did anyone ever once actually complain about this change?

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11 minutes ago, Rina_Pon said:

I don't think that's an important case here. An RN DD who smokes up to break line of sight will still go undetected regardless of the bloom status. If they retreat out the back of their smoke screen they will stay undetected, just there will now be a slightly greater chance of being re-spotted for a few seconds before the bloom resets.

Stop shooting a few seconds before popping your smoke - problem solved. You'll be cold before you exit your smoke.

The whole things strikes me as a huge storm in a teacup. And most people are misunderstanding what WG is going to do and what effect it will have. Ships that go behind an island will still go undetected instantly. It's just that the bloom - the chance of being reacquired should LoS be re-established - won't instantly cool off.

Likewise if you fire your guns in spawn, your bloom will last for 20s even if you aren't detected. You will stay "hot" (easy to detect from long range) for a bit.

I'm solidly in favor of the fix. It's totally minor, hardly important, but it's a good change.

I could reason with that but I think this however penalize good game play , players had long utilize the landscape to break LOS and establish stealth, especially with DD and CL which had limited gun range ( which mean they must be in harm's way to shoot their gun )  , the tactic of shooting then dodge behind an island and run back out from the other end and then repeating or disengage is viable tactics to allow the light force a chance to fight up close in their gun range against BB and CA but now this take away that stealth establishment, meaning the can either choose not to shoot at all ( which diminish their capability ) or had to stay behind that island for 20 sec and 20 sec is simply too long for a DD / CL to stay in close against big guns. They now cannot simply disengage since if they run from the cover of the island they will be spotted ( unless they stay there for 20 Sec but then by the time this expires, the big guns would be way closer )

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22 minutes ago, Rina_Pon said:

don't think that's an important case here. An RN DD who smokes up to break line of sight will still go undetected regardless of the bloom status. If they retreat out the back of their smoke screen they will stay undetected, just there will now be a slightly greater chance of being re-spotted for a few seconds before the bloom resets.

Not really. Unless the DD was not firing its guns the entire time, the DD would have to stop firing, pop smoke and slow down to stay within the smoke for the next 20s. With this change, if it leaves the smoke anytime before 20s, it will be detected again.

1 hour ago, Grygus_Triss said:

How dare they insult us by calling a a “bug fix”.

Yeah I am surprised more people aren't unhappy that they are being misled, even those that support the change.

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1 hour ago, Thyaliad said:

Not really. Unless the DD was not firing its guns the entire time, the DD would have to stop firing, pop smoke and slow down to stay within the smoke for the next 20s. With this change, if it leaves the smoke anytime before 20s, it will be detected again. 

Yeah I am surprised more people aren't unhappy that they are being misled, even those that support the change.

Yeah, that's a good point. Many DD players, or smoke cruiser players come to that, often fire until their smoke ends, then, assuming they are out of detection range, sail away undetected. RN DDs especially cannot afford to waste 20 seconds not firing. So it may be a bit inconvenient.

Now, it won't break the game, we'll just have to see what happens, I expect It may make ships which rely a lot on stealth more careful. If it is a big problem, it may be reintroduced later (probably unlikely). What I really don't like is there apparent sneakiness. Hiding what many people consider a mechanic, as a bug fix. Even if it is a bug, they should be more careful with player's expectations.

 

[Update]: Read some comments on youtube (Notsers latest video) where someone quoted Conway. Aparently, the bloom will only stay extended if you were spotted prior to going into cover. Should be business as normal if firing from stealth, or otherwise, 'not spotted'.

So it will only affect you if you were spotted, break LoS then go back into LoS before 20 seconds.

...I think...

Edited by Grygus_Triss

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34 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

[Update]: Read some comments on youtube (Notsers latest video) where someone quoted Conway. Aparently, the bloom will only stay extended if you were spotted prior to going into cover. Should be business as normal if firing from stealth, or otherwise, 'not spotted'.

So it will only affect you if you were spotted, break LoS then go back into LoS before 20 seconds.

...I think... 

This is correct, and is the reason why everyone is so up in arms about the change.  It made such a massive difference to DD and CL game play to know that you could break LOS and not have to work out when 20 seconds has elapsed so you didn't get respotted and smashed.

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1 hour ago, Grygus_Triss said:

[Update]: Read some comments on youtube (Notsers latest video) where someone quoted Conway. Aparently, the bloom will only stay extended if you were spotted prior to going into cover. Should be business as normal if firing from stealth, or otherwise, 'not spotted'.

So it will only affect you if you were spotted, break LoS then go back into LoS before 20 seconds.

...I think...

Lets say I am in a RN DD, I fire my guns to finish a of a dd. So now I am spotted by other ships that are in my gun range. Then I pop smoke and I get unspotted but my bloom stays the same for 20 sec. Now if I want to bail and run from that smoke I have to wait and let my bloom cool down first. Otherwise I'll get spotted again.

And If I shoot from that smoke screen it won't effect that 20 sec cool down time of my bloom. It will shrink back at my concealment after 20s runs out. In other word, when I am unspotted the mechanic stays the same as before. I just need to make sure my bloom is back at my concealment before leaving any smoke or cover.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

Edit: Still we are so much used to make smoke/island to kill LOS that it's a pain to re-establish a new strategy. And some time there just not enough time to sit behind an island or smoke to let our bloom cool down.

Edited by _rayhan_

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6 hours ago, Max_Battle said:

It requires thought and intelligent play

Is this another one of those illegal items request?  

You DO know they are banned, don't you?

 

 

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2 hours ago, Thyaliad said:

Not really. Unless the DD was not firing its guns the entire time, the DD would have to stop firing, pop smoke and slow down to stay within the smoke for the next 20s. With this change, if it leaves the smoke anytime before 20s, it will be detected again.

No, that's incorrect on two counts. First because the requirement to slow down and not outrun your own smoke is anyway as it is now and as it always was. Second because now and after the proposed change, the true statement is "if it leaves the smoke anytime before 20s, it may be detected again." The difference is the chance of being re-acquired will increase very slightly.

People has treating this like you will stay detected for longer. The change rather affects only what happens after a ship goes undetected.

As it is now, there is the potential to abuse the mechanic: A DD has a hot gun bloom, dips into a smoke screen for 2 seconds and instantly goes cold. After the change, the DD will stay hot. Ditto for island hugging cruisers. If you are hot you stay hot even if you go undetected, so you have to be a little bit more careful with your line of sight for 20 seconds. That's the sum total of what we are talking about here. 

 

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21 minutes ago, Ordrazz said:

Is this another one of those illegal items request?  

You DO know they are banned, don't you?

 

 

Wait wait . what even is illegal being discussed here

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4 hours ago, Grygus_Triss said:

Max detection range

This sounds like a good pickup line.

"Hey baby, did you know you are in Max detection range?"

Might need work...

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33 minutes ago, Ordrazz said:

Is this another one of those illegal items request?  

You DO know they are banned, don't you?

Sounds like it would make a good Monty Python sketch.

Shopkeeper: Good day sir, what can I help you with today?

Customer: Good day to you sir! I would like to buy some Thoughtful and Intelligent gameplay for World of Warships!

Shopkeeper: I'm sorry sir, that is an illegal item and I'm going to have to shoot you.

BANG.

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46 minutes ago, Rina_Pon said:

No, that's incorrect on two counts

Nope. You misunderstand. Or perhaps I wasn't clear enough.

46 minutes ago, Rina_Pon said:

First because the requirement to slow down and not outrun your own smoke is anyway as it is now and as it always was.

I know the smoke hasn't changed. But how the DD uses it will. Previously a DD can pop smoke and slow down enough to break concealment for 3s or so, then speed up again out of the smoke and not be detected. This is important if you want to break los but not remain in the smoke, whether it is because you know torps are incoming or you see a radar ship approaching.

46 minutes ago, Rina_Pon said:

Second because now and after the proposed change, the true statement is "if it leaves the smoke anytime before 20s, it may be detected again." The difference is the chance of being re-acquired will increase very slightly.

That is just semantics. Assuming each and every thing that was spotting you remained where they were for the next 20s, you will be spotted. Why should you assume they are no longer there?

Edited by Thyaliad

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34 minutes ago, Rina_Pon said:

...

As it is now, there is the potential to abuse the mechanic: A DD has a hot gun bloom, dips into a smoke screen for 2 seconds and instantly goes cold. After the change, the DD will stay hot. Ditto for island hugging cruisers. If you are hot you stay hot even if you go undetected, so you have to be a little bit more careful with your line of sight for 20 seconds. That's the sum total of what we are talking about here. 

 

And there lies the problem ... when a game mechanic had been in place for so long and work as such, one cannot exactly call that an abuse ; its for the light force mostly a smart way of working with and within the game mechanics , but this change is clearly only made it happy for those sitting and not actively maneuvering so they can spot those who do actively maneuver and fire and dodge, and hide. I think in the end it penalize good game play and reward the lazy with an easy spotting  

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Concerning "bug fix change" to UK DDs - A Hypothetical:

I am in a DD or CA/CL with reasonable range on my torpedoes.

I am chasing a UK DD.

He shoots me, drops smoke and disappears. I have him detected as do other members of my team. Say we are all within 7-10km of each other.

As it is at the moment, he can smoke and stop or smoke and flee. I don't know what he has done and as he almost certainly has sub 7km conceal, he has that option.

There are reasons why he would do either (stop or flee). His own torps may be ready and he wants me to get a bit closer before launching, maybe he wants a shot or two at me in smoke before moving away or maybe he is just foolhardy and wants to stand his ground.

Regardless, he can stop or flee as soon as his (very small) smoke conceals him and I don't know where he is. (Yes yes, RDF aside or someone else having RDF and calling it or radar).

BUT now, with this change, if he drops smoke and doesn't appear (ie he stops) I know 100% he is in that small smoke and I can spread my torps into the smoke (which I may have done anyway but it would have been be a guess).

And if he decides to flee from his very tiny and short smoke, well he is just spotted.

I haven't played a LOT of UK DD in randoms but when I have, this escape method and faster CD and charges of smoke was the offset to having such small smokes.

This "change" appears to severely hurt UK DDs in particular for this reason.

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