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Grygus_Triss

Future Radar Changes

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I think this has potential.

Think of the times you have been spotted by a ship that has rushed forward, hidden himself in a place where he cant fire at you, and used radar to light you up for the team?

This will help many DDs survive the first 5 minutes.

And encourage players to pay attention to their team mates, and the mini map.

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Notser did bring up a good point: radar is too precise. I also think some radar in the game last too long. 

The "immediately see every enemy in range" aspect of the radar is the reason why radar is so prevalent for US and Rus cruisers. Do Hydro US cruisers even exist? 

 

I'm still on the fence about this "delay" aspect...

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A step forward but really not enough, the problem start when they try to nullify the old stealth smoke and fire but then they then flood the game with Radar that is just too over powering over anything. IMHO this is no more than a try to see if it work kind of patching up the problem and I do not see it working at all. Unlike other consumable which most are for defensive use, Radar is very much an offensive one and by making it so over powering WG take away all game play possible for CL and / or DD to go up front and even CA and BB so everyone just stay back, and things turn into just long range gun duel.

What I see is that the Radar need several change really to made it viable .. it need to be line of sight, it should not be possible to radar through landmass; then the Radar ship should also instantly reveal itself to all enemies within Radar range when it light up. Even better I think WG should made the Radar more like real world, that is when Radar is on it light up everything within its range friend or foe and this info would be visible to everyone friend or foe within the Radar range.

Right now this consumable is a piece of having no cost to run other than the limitation of quantity available and the cool down, now if eyeball scouting and spotting require a ship to get in range and in plain sight, and Hydro require ship to be fairly near and thus almost always visible to the enemy. Air spotting take the plane over enemy ad in may cases faces AA. In short all these spotting & scouting come with risk. Radar is the opposite right now , its allowing the team wit the Radar to have no hold barred scouting without paying a price. It's why people are all playing Radar cruiser now. Really it should be made in such a way to had the advantage of Radar coverage, but then also the ship and the team should also face consequence of using it.

Edited by Mechfori

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1 hour ago, Mechfori said:

What I see is that the Radar need several change really to made it viable .. it need to be line of sight, it should not be possible to radar through landmass

https://youtu.be/ZNoTI65VUSw?t=120

I will quote for you

" Line Of Sight proved problematic because is too unreliable and too much dependent , basically effectively making the radar a pretty random and situational comsumable which we do not want to be "

So they are just saying NO 

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1 hour ago, Mechfori said:

What I see is that the Radar need several change really to made it viable .. it need to be line of sight, it should not be possible to radar through landmass

WG designed radar to prevent ambushes, but the duration makes it too good against DDs. In this game, cruisers are designed to be anti-DD ship type, but radar makes some cruisers become too good at this role, esp. Mino and Wuster. 2 US cruisers in a cap means abandoning that cap for the other team.

Just reduce the duration to 5s or less. Surely you know the guy is there but you cannot just track and shoot at him in smoke until he dies. So instead of shooting him, take cautions. It's not supposed to be something that should be valued over Hydro. 40s duration (more with Radar Mod.) is just ridiculous. Anti-ambushing doesn't mean that the radar should last nearly a whole minute.

This isn't real life so how radar works IRL doesn't matter.

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As someone who both enjoys being aggressive around islands in a BB, and enjoys have team mates in BBs being aggressive and pushing forward, I find that radar seeing through islands is quite good at helping BBs find their balls. Even being able to see a DD location on the mini map would be enough to plan a tactical approach, or to know the risks.

I don't want radar to be completely useless. This change gives DDs a chance at surviving. A chance to run. As I alluded to above, it gives you a chance to run when those cap camping radar ships sight you.

Edited by Grygus_Triss

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DD sacrifice a lot for their stealth (hp only 1/10 of a BB, 1/5 of CA, paper armor etc.)

but radar ship sacrifice nothing for their god eye see all gimmick...

no matter how their adjust radar

if there's no down side to compensate.

radar is cheat program in my book.

=w=

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58 minutes ago, kongman said:

so they want to make the DD even more OP than they already are , GREAT

Sorry but no. They aren't that OP. In fact most DDs are suffering from radar meta and HE spam. And in WoWS, radar ships are getting more and more added to the game. This way Cruisers cannot engage destroyer and kill them instantly. Also this radar change will give DD some chances to survive longer. From almost all comments in this topic, I think I can agree that DD will need a justification against other classes.

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9 hours ago, Mechfori said:

A step forward but really not enough, the problem start when they try to nullify the old stealth smoke and fire but then they then flood the game with Radar that is just too over powering over anything. IMHO this is no more than a try to see if it work kind of patching up the problem and I do not see it working at all. Unlike other consumable which most are for defensive use, Radar is very much an offensive one and by making it so over powering WG take away all game play possible for CL and / or DD to go up front and even CA and BB so everyone just stay back, and things turn into just long range gun duel.

What I see is that the Radar need several change really to made it viable .. it need to be line of sight, it should not be possible to radar through landmass; then the Radar ship should also instantly reveal itself to all enemies within Radar range when it light up. Even better I think WG should made the Radar more like real world, that is when Radar is on it light up everything within its range friend or foe and this info would be visible to everyone friend or foe within the Radar range.

Right now this consumable is a piece of having no cost to run other than the limitation of quantity available and the cool down, now if eyeball scouting and spotting require a ship to get in range and in plain sight, and Hydro require ship to be fairly near and thus almost always visible to the enemy. Air spotting take the plane over enemy ad in may cases faces AA. In short all these spotting & scouting come with risk. Radar is the opposite right now , its allowing the team wit the Radar to have no hold barred scouting without paying a price. It's why people are all playing Radar cruiser now. Really it should be made in such a way to had the advantage of Radar coverage, but then also the ship and the team should also face consequence of using it.

You should probably give it a chance before you write it off as 'not enough'. Recent and incoming changes to things like BB AP penetrations, radar ranges and concealment have made incremental quality of life improvements to DD play; this is one more that must be managed carefully to not tip the balance to DDs too far, too quickly.

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17 hours ago, Mechfori said:

What I see is that the Radar need several change really to made it viable .. it need to be line of sight, it should not be possible to radar through landmass; then the Radar ship should also instantly reveal itself to all enemies within Radar range when it light up. Even better I think WG should made the Radar more like real world, that is when Radar is on it light up everything within its range friend or foe and this info would be visible to everyone friend or foe within the Radar range.

Umm, very sorry but your understanding of real world radar is incorrect. A radar pulse is detectable by platforms with the appropriate direction finding equipment and this will give a bearing to the source of the pulse. SOmething like the way radio location works in the game.

The only platform that is able to see and display the targets and other information detected by the radar system is the transmitting platform. In 1940 - 1960 -ish, the only way to share this detection information with ships in company was via signals (flags or flashing light) or by making a radio call to broadcast the target locations.

From the 1960s onward ships began receive tactical data link equipment that is a radio based system that obtained track information from the radar system and automagically broadcast the track information to the nearby ships for display on their combat systems.

So if you want performance like the real world of 1940 - 1945 then the radar picture is only available to the radar ship. Any ship that is fitted with radio location equipment will know when and where the radar ship is operating from.

American radar ships will have long range (well beyond gunfire range) but useless target information display capabilities not much better than radio location. British and Germany radar will have short range (Gun range + 10%) but can pinpoint and display a target location, speed and direction with 100% accuracy. Unfortunately I do not have the experience with the Soviet systems of the 1940s to be able to describe their performance.

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Most of the WWII radars were search radars (wide beam, slow scan rate) for early warning. Gun fire control radar (narrow beam, high scan rate) did appear on US ships first with much shorter range.

For search radar, Air search radars had far better performance than surface search radar due to ground reflection.

Edited by tsuenwan

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I know what you mean by those Radar as in real life ( and none of ours and WG's actually anywhere near real anyway ), but if we must be precise then one of the real issue today with Radar in WOWS is its god's eye view and instant reveal all with precision and can see through obstacles ... I still maintain for the part, any other scouting and spotting mean come with risk and price to pay for the ship that perform the task, for Radar, there is zero price to pay, the Radar ship can remain hidden behind island and just light up and then every other ship in the team can simply focus fire on the poor ones who happens to be.

I believe for the part, Radar duration and range might need some nerf , slight one, or the mechanics need some revision, but in the end it must be made so that the Radar when used must present the advantage but also the risk and cost to the team using it ( since the consumable benefit the team, not just the single ship ). Unless that balance and check is put into place, no amount of nerfing, buffing others will do because there is recall no price to pa for having an advantage like what the Radar do, and clearly having multiple Radar CA to tag team their Radar will still simply ruin the game play

I do agree that one of the solution mentioned, that is only the Radar sip itself can see the lighted up targets, that could made it viable without much change .. with CV rework wit infinite plane and revised AA ( pretty much useless ) the game play is already somewhat skewed for the light force and I am not seeing any way light force will ever want to venture ot if Radar still keep being OP as it is, and in the end the game pla will suffer for lack of up front force projection by any team ( long range gun duel again and everyone stay line 2 or 3 )

Edited by Mechfori

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18 hours ago, kongman said:

so they want to make the DD even more OP than they already are , GREAT

Are you a bit slow of thinking? Back in invisi firing days DD were probably OP but now they certainly aren't.

Do you know how hard it is to play DD to the objective in T9-10?

You have spotter planes to spot you, other DD's to spot you, hydro, and 11.7km radar to dodge on russian bias ships. All that while you try to contest the cap, hit torps and spot for your team with the lowest health pool and minimal heal if any.

The ONLY weapon against being obliterated in seconds is concealment.

You very rarely get second chances in top tier DD play unlike BB's with multiple heals and heavy armour.

Perhaps you should actually try playing top tier DD to the objective  before you spam some trash....... 

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Real radars expose their own locations far beyond their detection range ever, that was the real purpose of radio position finder primary function

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20 minutes ago, tsuenwan said:

Real radars expose their own locations far beyond their detection range ever, that was the real purpose of radio position finder primary function

Indeed, and there were multiple instance of Radar or Radio leaking positions of a ship or a fleet since it was used in warfare ; this fact however do not reflect on this game. I always maintain tha the Radar ship should instantly reveal itself to all ships foes when it light up .. when using Radar its just like a beacon telling people " I am here " and in fact that was its first use in maritime operation though not in warfare

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Move away from reality, please.

 

Doesn't matter if radar can see through terrain or reveals the position of the user. Why would you mention that, while all other consumables in the game are also risk-free?

Right now it's a nightmare for DD players who get destroyed in the first 5 minutes of a match trying to play the objectives and be a good asset for the team. With so many radar ships around, they can't even scout properly. And the bitter truth, DDs are way more valuable than the cruisers/BBs who complain about them. Having all two of your DDs sunk before 10 minutes mark? Well RIP.

Radar right now is just badly balanced. US radar lasts way too long, and Rus radar reaches too far.

If done right, radar can either lasts for 2 mins or reach 15km without being OP.

 

How?

IF radar lasts 2 mins, radar just can't see through terrain anymore, which is the opposite of the anti-ambushing tool - the primary function of radar in the game.

IF radar reaches 15km, then it can only last at best 2 seconds. This is what I propose. When you activate it, all the enemy ships in range are detected for a mind-blowing 2 seconds, unless those ships are also seen, they will only be icons on the minimap for the next few minutes until the consumable finishes cooldown. Of course, the 15km range is absurd and should be corrected accordingly by ship nation and tier. Rus radar can have 15km range at T10 and 2 charges stock. US/RN cruisers can have 3-4 charges but only 10 km. PA DDs and USS Black can have even 5 charges but 7 km range. But the duration is the same: ONE WHOLE SECOND.

Is this radar tactical? IMO superbly. Most of the ships that have radar are cruisers. This ship type is supposed to screen aircrafts/DDs and provide fire support (whether most cruiser players actually do those is a matter of debate). This proposal of radar does one thing: telling the team which ships in in the flank without also revealing too much about what they do in the next minute.

At the start of the match, a cruiser gets in position, pops radar and reveals all the ships in the flank so his teammates can take appropriate actions (changing flank included). If he pops radar and sees a DD on the other side of an island, that DD is ambushing. or changing flank. If this cruiser has to chase an enemy DD, he can pop radar to see where the enemy is heading, and take actions accordingly. If his teammates don't do anything for their own well-being, that is not the radar cruiser's fault.

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for something as powerful + impact as radar, it shouldn't be risk free.

it don't have to be direct down side in term of game play, but at least make to sacrifice something to get power of radar.

like some DD that sacrifice smoke for radar or TRB, or Minotaur that have to choose between smoke or radar.

my suggests is.. 

put every consumables aside from dam-con into same slot!

😄

radar, hydro, heal, smoke, catapult fighter/spotter, DFAA, etc

All of it in same slot.... and let them choose which one their need most.

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12 minutes ago, PGM991 said:

for something as powerful + impact as radar, it shouldn't be risk free.

it don't have to be direct down side in term of game play, but at least make to sacrifice something to get power of radar.

like some DD that sacrifice smoke for radar or TRB, or Minotaur that have to choose between smoke or radar.

my suggests is.. 

put every consumables aside from dam-con into same slot!

😄

radar, hydro, heal, smoke, catapult fighter/spotter, DFAA, etc

All of it in same slot.... and let them choose which one their need most.

At this point you're just salty :Smile_trollface:

Also US cruisers have Radar and Hydro in the same slot. Your argument is invalid :Smile_trollface:

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WG dont need to make massive changes, just nerf the duration and range. Radar is important for game play but atm its just a bit over done.

11.7km is total bs and so is 40sec+ duration.

It's not rocket science, no need to reinvent the wheel, the simplest solution is often the best.

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21 hours ago, mr_glitchy_R said:

Sorry but no. They aren't that OP. In fact most DDs are suffering from radar meta and HE spam. And in WoWS, radar ships are getting more and more added to the game. This way Cruisers cannot engage destroyer and kill them instantly. Also this radar change will give DD some chances to survive longer. From almost all comments in this topic, I think I can agree that DD will need a justification against other classes.

yup sure , DD are still way OP , so we have some abilities that even the playing field nothing more , everyone knows this , only people complaining are DD drivers that cant go around wrecking everything anymore 

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2 hours ago, kongman said:

yup sure , DD are still way OP , so we have some abilities that even the playing field nothing more , everyone knows this , only people complaining are DD drivers that cant go around wrecking everything anymore

Only good players can make the word 'OP' came true. No matter how OP a ships is, if a player has a garbage skill, That ship will lose its reputation for being OP.

 

3 hours ago, dieselhead said:

WG dont need to make massive changes, just nerf the duration and range. Radar is important for game play but atm its just a bit over done.

11.7km is total bs and so is 40sec+ duration.

It's not rocket science, no need to reinvent the wheel, the simplest solution is often the best.

They didn't learn form the Yue Yang nerf do they? How lame. -_-

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