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Paladinum

German DD split proposal, 128-150

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This has nothing do to with anything but whatever, gotta post it.

 

Information on most classes could be found on:
https://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/destroyer/index.html
And Wikipedia.
On Type 1937J: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_1937J_destroyer

 

The split is as follow:

Historical note: All German 127 mm are actually 128 mm, and all German 150 mm are actually 149.1 mm. I doubt WG use 149 mm anyway. I use 128 and 150 for convenience.

Spoiler

Tier II to VI: unchanged.

The 128 mm DDs are unlocked through Gaede Hull B, and the 150 mm DDs are unlocked through Gaede 150 mm gun module.

 

128 mm guns ("main" line)

VII: Leberecht Maass (Z1, Type 1934)

Type 1938B (New) (Prem)

VIII: Diether von Roeder (Z17, Type 1936) (New)

IX: Z46 (type 1936C)

X: Z52 (Type 1944)

Type 1945 (New) (Prem)

 

150 mm guns:

VII: Type 1936A-class “subclass” (Z25, Z28, Z29, Z30)

VIII: Z23 (Type 1936A) without 128 mm guns

IX: Type 1938 A/Ac (New)

Type 1937J (New) (Prem)

X: SP-1 (Spähkreuzer 1938) (New)

XI: Spähkreuzer 1940 (New) (Prem)

 

 

Characteristics on the 150 mm line:
+ Carry 150 mm guns so IFHE won’t be an absolute requirement. Also those guns have slow-ish reload (6,7s – 7,5s). BFT and AFT will only be required for AA builds.
+ Are very big (basically overweight) so expect massive HP pool and big detection range. T10 will get full BB AP pen damage like Khabarosvk and Harugumo.
+ Similar to the main line, they have sluggish rudder and large turning radius. About Aki-Kita-Haru (and Khaba) level of maneuverability.
+ Decently fast having at least 36 knots speed on all ships.
+ Roles: cap support (only cap when it’s safe to do so), HE spammer, potential DD hunter (don’t go against Kapparoast, Akizuki, Kitakaze and Harugumo though), torpedo sweeper (because German Hydro).
+ Consumables: I think they don’t need any consumable gimmick, aside from the German Hydro the current line already has. Maybe Heal at T9 and T10 in the same slot as Smoke, like Khabarovsk.

 

A bit of a disclaimer: the estimated HP, based on the ships’ standard/full displacement, for the ships aren’t 100% accurate (but I did some tests and the results are very close). WarGaming may use different sources for the ships’ displacements. It’s a formula(s) I stole from someone I know and I do not have the permission to give them to anyone else.

 

Some side thoughts: German torpedoes on DDs are spammable, mobile and stealthy yet short in range. Torpedo B modules are always straight upgrades from Torpedo A modules. A somewhat boring trait. The 150 mm line can have a different set of torpedo modules that have long range and more reload time. More damage is 100% optional. They need long-ranged torpedoes. That’s all I’m asking here.

 

THE SHIPS

 

TYPE 1936A - Z25

Tier 7- 150 mm guns 

Spoiler

4-150 mm gun version of Z23. They’re of the same class.

Z23 actually has THREE guns set up. Hull A/B – Gun A: 4 single 128 mm guns (1 in the bow, 3 in the aft). Hull A – Gun B: 4 single 150 mm guns (1 in the bow, 3 in the aft). And Hull B – Gun B: 5 150 mm guns (one twin in the bow, 3 single in the aft). This ship uses the Hull A – Gun B armament. Historically correct.

HP: 14.700 (Hull A), 19.500 (Hull B)

Primary armament: 4 single 150 mm guns (same as Z23’s Hull A-Gun B setup) and 2x4 533 mm torpedo tubes.

Speed: same as Z23, 37 knots

Consumables: standard T7 German DD consumable set.

Opinions: nothing too different from Z23 (again, being the same class of ships). Same torps as Maass. There would be the question of why I put two ships of the same class together in the same line, but there are KGV and Monarch (it’s something I’m against doing by the way, but WG paved the way so why not), and they have the same hull (check their armor and HP), only different armaments.

 

TYPE 1936  - Z17 DIETHER VON ROEDER

Tier 8 - 128 mm guns

Spoiler

Generally the same as Maass, same speed, same armament setup, but slightly heavier (more HP) than Maass.

Estimated HP: 14.400 (Hull A), 19.000 (Hull B)

Torpedoes: same modules as Z23.

Consumables: standard T8 German DD consumable set.

Opinions: nothing too different from Maass. It’s like how Fletcher successes Benson in the US DD line.

 

TYPE 1936A – Z23

Tier 8 - 150 mm guns

Now no longer carries 128 mm guns, only – 5 150 mm guns (one twin in the bow, 3 single in the aft). Nothing else will be changed.

 

TYPE 1938 A/AC

Tier 9 - 150 mm guns

Spoiler

https://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/destroyer/zerstorer1938a/tech.html

Proposed name: Wolfgang Zenker

Estimated HP: 25.500 (Hull B ?). Harugumo has 25.900 HP, for reference.

Primary armament: 3x2 150 mm guns (1 at bow, one admiship facing forward, 1 at aft) and 2x5 533 mm torpedo launchers. The 150 mm guns are the same as Z23’s twin 150 mm guns. Also 1x2 88 mm as DP armament.

Speed: about 36 knots.

Consumables: Damage Control Party, Smoke Generator/Repair Party, Engine Boost, Hydro.

Opinions: of course the ship has big HP pool. Most German ships in the game have more HP than ships of the same tier and type. She will have large detection range for her size. Her 150 mm are the same as the dual mount 150 mm on Z23, which has 6.7s reload time. Her ten-tube setup allows more aggressive torpedo boat-like playstyle, although, as mentioned right above, her large detection range wouldn’t really help with torpedo boating. With 5 tubes per set, it’d be about 112.5s reload time per quintuple torpedo mount. Same torps as Z46.

 

SPÄHKREUZER 1938

Tier 10 - 150 mm guns

Spoiler

https://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/destroyer/spahkreuzer/tech.html

Name: SP-1 (the only once that was laid down)

Estimated HP: 29.500.

Primary armament: 3x2 150 mm guns (same arrangement as Z46) and 2x5 533 mm torpedo launchers. The 150 mm guns are the same as Z23’s twin 150 mm guns.

Speed: about 36 knots.

Consumables: Damage Control Party, Smoke Generator/Repair Party, Engine Boost, Hydro.

Opinions: this ship would be on par (or even exceed) Khabarovsk in terms of detection, and indeed her roles would mainly be medium-ranged fire support. NEVER expect a Spähkreuzer to cap a point, unless the situation allows/requires such a thing. Consumable setup may include a standard cruiser Repair Party in the same slot as Smoke Generator (just like Khabarovsk). Same torps as Z52?

 

PREMIUMS

 

TYPE 1938B

Tier 7

Spoiler

https://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/destroyer/zerstorer1938b/tech.html

Proposed name: Georg Thiele

Estimated HP: 15.800 (Hull B).

Primary armament: 2x2 128 mm guns (1 bow, 1 aft) and 2x4 533 mm torpedo tubes.

Speed: about 36 knots.

Consumables: standard T7 German DD consumable set.

Opinions: Simply Z46 with 1 less turret and is similar to Hull B Shiratsuyu in terms of armament arrangement. Same torpedoes as Maass/Z23 (8,5 km ones). Having only 2 turrets in such a layout is the primary balancing factor here, and the relatively normal HP pool.

 

TYPE 1937J

Tier 9

Spoiler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_1937J_destroyer

Proposed name: Friedrich Eckoldt

Estimated HP: 20.400 (Hull A), 25.800 (Hull B). Harugumo has 25.900 HP, for reference.

Primary armament: 5 single 150 mm guns (same arrangement as Maass) and a strange torpedo tube setup of 2x2 and 1x4 533 mm torpedo tubes, somewhat similar to Mahan or Le Terrible. Non-uniform number of tubes of the sets is similar to the early tiers of German DDs.

Speed: about 36 knots

Consumables: standard T9 German DD consumable set.

Opinions: a good T9 Premium candidate. T8 if WG want to push it, not recommended because of too much HP. Nice follow-up to Maass in most aspects but with very awkward torpedo setup. The reason why I don’t put this design in the line because there is Z23 in T8 already, and I want the T9 to have all twin gun turrets. Torpedoes are the same as Z23 or Z46 (9,5 km ones).

 

TYPE 1945

Tier 10

Spoiler

https://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/destroyer/zerstorer1945/tech.html

Proposed name: Max Schultz

Estimated HP: 15.500 (Hull A), 20.000 (Hull B) (if T10 ships have Hull B)

Primary armament: 4x2 128 mm guns (2 bow, 2 aft) and 2x4 533 mm torpedo tubes, with SPARES!

Speed: about 39 knots.

Consumables: Damage Control Party, Smoke Generator, Engine Boost, Hydro.

Opinions: T10 candidate. Better Z52. Should have been the T10 of the current line. I mean, Roon to Hindenburg. WarGaming get your tech trees together. 4 turrets with spare torps, which means Torpedo Reload Booster can be a thing (would be excessive to be honest). This ship may share the same torpedo situation with Khabarovsk, super short-ranged, high-damaging torps? Khabarovsk and this design even have the same armament layout. However, Khabarovsk’s torps have really high damage, German torps do not. So it’s logical for this ship to have Z52’s 10,5 km torps. German torpedoes generally have the best torpedo reload time in the game (and the lowest damage), so this ship would be on par with some Japanese destroyers in terms of spamming walls of skills. Even without TRB, this ship is already better than Z52 in terms of firepower. T10 Coal/Steel ship.

 

SPÄHKREUZER 1940

Tier 11

Spoiler

https://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/destroyer/spahkreuzer/tech40.html

Proposed name: Richard Beitzen

Estimated HP: 37.000 (based on designed displacement). Basically, a Stalingrad of destroyers.

Primary armament: same as Spähkreuzer 1938.

Speed: about 36 knots.

Aircraft: 1 catapult for one float plane.

Consumables: Damage Control Party, Smoke Generator/Repair Party, Engine Boost, Hydro/Spotter Plane.

Opinions: T11 candidate. Basically a light cruiser without a citadel, and should be played like one. Consumable-wise, she would probably have Repair Party in a separate slot. T11 Steel ship, if ever being implemented. I don’t recommend this as a CL, because her HP will only be 23.800, which is about the Hull A of most T5 cruisers... I mean... this could work as a Premium T5 cruiser... I guess? Even thought functionally this is a destroyer, it’s probably justified by the ship’s type - “scout cruiser”. T11 if DD, T5 Coal ship if CL. Don't add this ship at all if T11 isn't an official thing.

 

Edited by Paladinum

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I dont really think they have a defined role TBH. The 150 line could be tackled be Daring with its crazy consumable choices.

I honestly think that the 128 german line need something far more unique , like having a parallel torp pattern wide - condensed ( similar to torpedo bomber drop ) or allow the launcher to be acoustic homed in ( which will auto home in on the target as long as they are within hydro acoustic search range ).

Then the 150 can then be set apart by having a ridiculously strong AP shell to compensate for its short coming , allowing to mimick heavy cruiser in short ranged fire fight in penetration power.

The HE shell will be dud though. Or give it a very strong bow for a DD , and no significant firepower improvement so it could suck fire and win head on cap fight with other dd ( 25 mm or even 27mm can be good ).

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10 hours ago, legionary2099 said:

I dont really think they have a defined role TBH. The 150 line could be tackled be Daring with its crazy consumable choices.

I honestly think that the 128 german line need something far more unique , like having a parallel torp pattern wide - condensed ( similar to torpedo bomber drop ) or allow the launcher to be acoustic homed in ( which will auto home in on the target as long as they are within hydro acoustic search range ).

Then the 150 can then be set apart by having a ridiculously strong AP shell to compensate for its short coming , allowing to mimick heavy cruiser in short ranged fire fight in penetration power.

The HE shell will be dud though. Or give it a very strong bow for a DD , and no significant firepower improvement so it could suck fire and win head on cap fight with other dd ( 25 mm or even 27mm can be good ).

Are you suggesting magnetic torpedoes? Because the German indeed tested those things in WW2. Would be a cool feature, but also a liability (if they home friendlies).

Paralel torps are a bit OP though.

The 150 mm line can have 1/4 HE pen and US CA AP pen angle. I always find it weird that while German BBs and cruisers have 1/4 HE pen, the DDs don't (???). Jutland and Daring do, which make Z-46 and 52 more underwhelming than they already are.

Even with cruiser's bow, if they don't have enough RoF they won't win anything. And I doubt these ships will be given very good RoF...

Edited by Paladinum

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You have your wires crossed. 

A magnetic torpedo refers to the detonator in the warhead. It is not a guidance system. A magnetic torpedo would be able to sense its proximity to its target by the magnetic field generated and then trigger the warhead. The Germans started to field torpedoes with a pistol (contact) detonator with a secondary magnetic detonator as a backup in the case of a near miss where the contact fuse would obviously not trigger. Commonly used in naval mines, the magnetic detonator was first used by the Germans in a torpedo in 1917 in WW1. It proved unreliable due to differences in the earths magnetic field in different locations causing torpedoes to often fail to explode. Also the direction the torpedo approached a target could cause it to explode way too early. Also a ship could be completely protected from magnetic detonators if the ship was degaussed. By 1943 the RN had protected most of its cruisers and BB's with these systems. Also major vessels like RMS Queen Mary were also protected.

What @legionary2099 is talking about is a torpedo that can passively home in on the acoustic noise generated by a ship. Also called a wake homing torpedo. These were also fielded by the Germans from 1943 onwards but were seldom used due to poor results, easily countered with towed sound decoys, and posing a great threat to the launching U-boat if they did not go completely silent after launching one. They also ran at a very slow speed of about 20-24 knots to make it easier for the sensor to hear ambient noise which meant they were not as effective against high speed targets.

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26 minutes ago, HobartAWD said:

You have your wires crossed. 

A magnetic torpedo refers to the detonator in the warhead. It is not a guidance system. A magnetic torpedo would be able to sense its proximity to its target by the magnetic field generated and then trigger the warhead. The Germans started to field torpedoes with a pistol (contact) detonator with a secondary magnetic detonator as a backup in the case of a near miss where the contact fuse would obviously not trigger. Commonly used in naval mines, the magnetic detonator was first used by the Germans in a torpedo in 1917 in WW1. It proved unreliable due to differences in the earths magnetic field in different locations causing torpedoes to often fail to explode. Also the direction the torpedo approached a target could cause it to explode way too early. Also a ship could be completely protected from magnetic detonators if the ship was degaussed. By 1943 the RN had protected most of its cruisers and BB's with these systems. Also major vessels like RMS Queen Mary were also protected.

I don't read much into this stuff. A bit rude to say that I'm crazy or something...

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3 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

I don't read much into this stuff. A bit rude to say that I'm crazy or something...

Nothing said or implied that you were crazy. Having your wires crossed simply means you were mixed up between the 2 definitions of magnetic and acoustic homing

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13 minutes ago, HobartAWD said:

Nothing said or implied that you were crazy. Having your wires crossed simply means you were mixed up between the 2 definitions of magnetic and acoustic homing

I don't even know what that phrase means either. **** it.

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13 hours ago, legionary2099 said:

 

I honestly think that the 128 german line need something far more unique , like having a parallel torp pattern wide - condensed ( similar to torpedo bomber drop ) or allow the launcher to be acoustic homed in ( which will auto home in on the target as long as they are within hydro acoustic search range ).

I completely misunderstood what you meant. That was horrible of me.

I do want a new kind of homing torpedoes in the game. Would be nice to compensate for the (tragically) low damage all German torps feature.

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Homing torpedoes can be fairly OP against clueless people who think bow in is FTW . 

So to counteract that , we could give it 2 km homing detection ( it will only trigger its homing ability when passing near a ship within 2 km ), slow speed at 45 - 53 knts and large detection range of 1.5 ~ 2km. This way , alerted players can completely dodge the salvo ( since they are slow , and track correction is not real time , it update course slowly ) , or get nailed for being binocular lovers.

Other than that ,.the 150 dd line can use a 50 mm bow cause why not ? Its DPM will be crap , but not a lot of thing can hurt its manliness either.

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Homing torpedoes would be a terrible idea. Yes they were about in WWII. And you only had to do 20 kn to outrun them. How can a player Dodge something moved ng at your suggested speed of 50kn if the torp can home in? That's the entire point of homing, you cannot Dodge them.

Introducing these would mean KM would need single launch torps, which crosses over into the RN specialty.

It would mean a rebalance of at least 1 line, and we know how well WG manages that. We'd  end up with another bloody consumable ( acoustic decoy). And there are already too many consumables in this game.

It's an answer to a question that doesn't require answering. 

And are you suggesting another DD with 50mm plating?  Sounds like you are building a cruiser / Khaba clone. Just waht the game needs, another DD with 50mm armour, even if it is only the bow. 

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7 minutes ago, j0e90 said:

Homing torpedoes would be a terrible idea. Yes they were about in WWII. And you only had to do 20 kn to outrun them. How can a player Dodge something moved ng at your suggested speed of 50kn if the torp can home in? That's the entire point of homing, you cannot Dodge them.

Introducing these would mean KM would need single launch torps, which crosses over into the RN specialty.

It would mean a rebalance of at least 1 line, and we know how well WG manages that. We'd  end up with another bloody consumable ( acoustic decoy). And there are already too many consumables in this game.

It's an answer to a question that doesn't require answering. 

And are you suggesting another DD with 50mm plating?  Sounds like you are building a cruiser / Khaba clone. Just waht the game needs, another DD with 50mm armour, even if it is only the bow. 

Its not like its inconceivable since the 50mm is there to compensate for its mediocre offensive punch. This ship is themed around taking hits , not delivering them. The khaba plate is more to the side than the nose. 50mm doesnt mean it can sit there and tank hits from bigger ships but be good enough at bullying gunboat from short range.

And as i've said , this will not be real time tracking, it will do minor readjust in interval so you can dodge , but if you stay put you are dead.

And as far as i am concerned, homing doesnt mean it will track you forever , it still have its range hard limit , not to mention you can tweak damage or other stats to compensate for the homing.

 

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2 hours ago, legionary2099 said:

Homing torpedoes can be fairly OP against clueless people who think bow in is FTW . 

So to counteract that , we could give it 2 km homing detection ( it will only trigger its homing ability when passing near a ship within 2 km ), slow speed at 45 - 53 knts and large detection range of 1.5 ~ 2km. This way , alerted players can completely dodge the salvo ( since they are slow , and track correction is not real time , it update course slowly ) , or get nailed for being binocular lovers.

Other than that ,.the 150 dd line can use a 50 mm bow cause why not ? Its DPM will be crap , but not a lot of thing can hurt its manliness either.

Let just say, for now, that homing torpedoes isn't a good idea and shouldn't be added. I do want to see them in-game though, not gonna lie. Speed around 40-45 knots, low-damage (being German torps), short-ranged (being German torps) and have rudder shift time of a Hindenburg. Doable, just... not now.

I still want the 150 mm line to have long-ranged torps, because the ships cannot be too near enemies.

The idea of thick plating DDs can be good in a DD vs DD brawl, but that means WG have to give AP from BBs full pen to these ships. Their designs do not call for any plating thicker than a normal DDs should have. Probably 32 mm, but not 50. 50 mm is overkill.

 

15 minutes ago, j0e90 said:

That's the entire point of homing, you cannot Dodge them.

I've played a few dogfight flight sims and I can say that is not true.

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23 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

Let just say, for now, that homing torpedoes isn't a good idea and shouldn't be added. I do want to see them in-game though, not gonna lie. Speed around 40-45 knots, low-damage (being German torps), short-ranged (being German torps) and have rudder shift time of a Hindenburg. Doable, just... not now.

I still want the 150 mm line to have long-ranged torps, because the ships cannot be too near enemies.

The idea of thick plating DDs can be good in a DD vs DD brawl, but that means WG have to give AP from BBs full pen to these ships. Their designs do not call for any plating thicker than a normal DDs should have. Probably 32 mm, but not 50. 50 mm is overkill.

 

I've played a few dogfight flight sims and I can say that is not true.

Did you seriously just compare a plane sim to an arcade ships game? Sure, guided munitions *can* be dodged. Planes have an X, Y, Z environment to play with for a start. 

It is FAR harder for a surface ship to Dodge a homing torpedo. They rely on decoys in the main. Or modern era vessels use hull masking techniques like the US prarie masker. 

Guided munitions is the last thing this game needs. We have to survive the impending cluster 🦆 that is the 8.0 CV re work.

And adding another DD with BB level hull plating? And homing torps. Let's just give it cruise missiles while we are at it. It took WG what, 12 months plus to balance the Khaba.

Edited by j0e90

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10 minutes ago, j0e90 said:

It is FAR harder for a surface ship to Dodge a homing torpedo. They rely on decoys in the main.

I didn't ask for homing torps. At all. Yes, my comparison is a bit dumb but not the point. 

My proposed DD line - 150 mm German DD line - needs torps with longer range!!!

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55 minutes ago, j0e90 said:

Let's just give it cruise missiles while we are at it.

Inb4 WG actually thing this is a bad idea. My proposed Stalingrad guided missile upgrade. Stalingrad not nearly OP enough, I was in a game once where one got sunk. True story. :Smile-_tongue:

670418934_slavaclasscruiser.thumb.png.f6d78e91ca3a78a129c283f06abefeec.png

Seriously though any guided munitions in WOWS is a very bad idea. Extremely bad idea when one nation only has them and no one else. You think game balans™ is bad now? Lol you aint seen nothing yet. 

WG might surprise us and include something guided one day in the future. I sincerely hope not, but with the way certain things have gone in the past I would not put money on it never happening.

 

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38 minutes ago, HobartAWD said:

WG might surprise us and include something guided one day in the future.

Remember what WG once said about subs?

 

And can we get back to the topic of the thread - German DD split...?

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