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Max_Battle

Ships with all their guns in the front?

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They look weird.

Do you like them?

Do they have advantages over ships with turrets both fore and aft?

Disadvantages? 

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2 minutes ago, Max_Battle said:

They look weird.

Do you like them?

Do they have advantages over ships with turrets both fore and aft?

Disadvantages? 

See: Dunkerque.

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Super Tester
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Sadly tho, all the ships that have guns only in the front have really poor armor and cannot bow tank much.

May be Izumo is going to be the only exception.

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Not really. All guns upfront dont really work specifically on this server. Since you will do lots of kiting , faking and dynamic positioning to keep red team in check. People on this server love flanking and kiting, and all guns upfront put you at great risk of being out maneuvered.

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One advantage is you don't have to expose too much of a broadside to fire all your guns.

Another advantage is, since the gun turrets are positioned together, you can get surprisingly tight dispersion - much more than what their stats would indicate - if the RNG gods favour you. This is very noticeable on the Nelson and Izumo.

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Advantage : You can bring all your firepower at your forward angle. :Smile_izmena:

Disadvantage : Difficult to kiting, especially if you have to fight while running away :cap_tea:

IMO, Maybe it's good on battleships (with strong bow tanking capability). Unfortunately, I played on cruisers a lot, so stern turrets is a must (at least AB-X configuration). And I prefer ABC-XY main turrets configuration on Mogami.

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I ahared all the reservations others have expressed, but eventually got the free xp Nelson and learned to love her on Narai and Ultimate Frontier. Her win rate for me in randoms is one of my best, most reliable BBs.

The turret poaitioning allows the Nelson to swing all guns from one side to another easily and quickly, versus a BB where the rear guns have to rotate much further, and this certainly makes the gun arrangement nominally more powerful. You just need to think ahead and plan in terms of positioning to avoid needing to bug out and kite, although I find her she can fire 'back over her shoulder' fairly well (if I've survived the turn, and only need to deal with threats over one shoulder).

If the red team know to focus fire you, you're in trouble though as the super heal can only do so much. Her armor profile means she's a relatively squishy BB, but her gun arrangement can certainly hand out the squish to others.

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Not a fan.

In the context of this game: Not having back guns means no chance of return fire when being chased. Especially when the enemy is still within your normal detection radius. When you being attacked, you either grow a pair and charge forward or reverse full speed, which was how French "reverse" meme came to be (Dunkek).

And to me, that's why Izumo may have an advantage over designs like Nelsol, Dunkek and Richie Rich. Izumo has 1 turret pointing backward. With skillful maneuvering you can return fire while running away.

Edited by Paladinum

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here the fact

next update 0.7.11 :fish_nerv:

RN DDs event: there are special missions which require Nelson and Duke of York [from PTS 0.7.11] :cap_book:

weird or not, no problem :Smile_trollface:

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15 hours ago, icy_phoenix said:

Sadly tho, all the ships that have guns only in the front have really poor armor and cannot bow tank much.

May be Izumo is going to be the only exception.

I’ve found that Dunkerque bow tanks well enough at its tier. Though that falls apart when cruisers start spamming HE.

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Nelson is the only ship I have with the main battery forward configuration, my experiences are that she is one of the better and more fun to play.  

I think key thing is not to play as if you have a standard ab,xy or ab,x turret configuration.

Ie take advantage of and vive la difference...

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16 hours ago, icy_phoenix said:

nah, there are no such thing. you probably just remember some lucky instances.

Perhaps. But like I said, RNG is RNG, but when RNG decides to give you a good roll, I find the roll is much better on those ships. Also iChase did say he experienced the same thing in his latest how to Izumo video, so I am not the only one experiencing that it seems.

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3 hours ago, Thyaliad said:

Perhaps. But like I said, RNG is RNG, but when RNG decides to give you a good roll, I find the roll is much better on those ships. Also iChase did say he experienced the same thing in his latest how to Izumo video, so I am not the only one experiencing that it seems.

All 4 of them has 1.8 sigma. Which is pretty poor. Do you have any more reasons apart from "cause iChase also said the same". I am pretty certain the roll is way better for ships like... almost everything else with sigma higher than 1.8.

Only reasoning I can give on your behalf discarding what it "feels like" is, every turret has it's own target ellipse. So for ships with only front guns, the ellipses will be a bit more uniformly overlapping than ships where guns are in ABXY, or generally, placed far apart from bow to stern. Even then it's only noticeable at very short ranges, like sub 10km.

But, this does not override that 'scattered-ness' of shells due to poor sigma which means, for example Izumo, still lands shells both sides of a broadside ship, just as she used to, and Dunkerque still sprays shells at the general direction of your target ship. Not to forget their horizontal (broadside) dispersion is pretty wide as well.

Idk about you but I find most CCs hardly/barely/rarely convincing....

Edited by icy_phoenix

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23 hours ago, Thyaliad said:

One advantage is you don't have to expose too much of a broadside to fire all your guns.

Another advantage is, since the gun turrets are positioned together, you can get surprisingly tight dispersion - much more than what their stats would indicate - if the RNG gods favour you. This is very noticeable on the Nelson and Izumo.

Battleships which fire guns from both ends of the ship create a sort of crossfire effect resulting in more reliable dispersion than bbs which fire all the guns from one end. Especially true of longer ships with two turret placements each end, such as Montana and Nagato. 

independent of other values such as dispersion and sigma of course. 

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1 hour ago, icy_phoenix said:

Only reasoning I can give on your behalf discarding what it "feels like" is, every turret has it's own target ellipse. So for ships with only front guns, the ellipses will me a bit more uniformly overlapping than ships where guns are in ABXY, or generally, placed far apart from bow to stern. Even then it's only noticeable at very short ranges, like sub 10km. 

Yes this is what I mean. Maybe because it is the way I play my BBs, but I like to push in closer with them whenever possible, so I tend to fight around 10-14km. And at those ranges, it is quite noticeable. And like I said earlier, RNG is still RNG. You will still get those straddling shots no matter what. But when RNG does favour you, you will get a very tight grouping. What really matters is how consistently you can get those good RNG rolls.

Slightly off topic but about CCs in general, I do agree that you must take what they say with a pinch of salt. However, iChase has done good work in actually trying to understand the underlying game mechanics. After all, he was the one who helped clarify how accuracy works in this game, while everybody else, including Flamu, were still erroneously equating sigma with vertical dispersion. So I am pretty sure he is more informed than most of us, though he is still human and therefore possible to make mistakes. That's why I always say, don't blindly trust one person. Read what they say, but correspond their findings with your own experience and form your own conclusions.

Edited by Thyaliad

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22 hours ago, icy_phoenix said:

nah, there are no such thing. you probably just remember some lucky instances.

But there are such thing :v

 

 

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4 minutes ago, mr_glitchy_R said:

But there are such thing :v

Memes apart, this video was from a time when Missouri had raised citadels. It's still pretty easy to citadel but not as easy as it was in the past. And this is almost point blank shot. If you read the previous comments here, you will probably understand the context a bit better.

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2 hours ago, Pervis117 said:

Battleships which fire guns from both ends of the ship create a sort of crossfire effect resulting in more reliable dispersion than bbs which fire all the guns from one end. Especially true of longer ships with two turret placements each end, such as Montana and Nagato. 

independent of other values such as dispersion and sigma of course. 

Dunno if that is true or not but yeah, Montana is the most accurate BB in the game (unless a legendary mod Yamato appears). And Izumo is on the other end of the spectrum. As far as I know, her concealment and armor scheme got buffed, not gun stats.

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On 11/13/2018 at 2:16 AM, Max_Battle said:

They look weird.

Yes, they do look weird. A weird looking mix with the superstructure all the way back like a cargo ship, and big guns like a battleship.

I have played Richelieu and Nelson in operations and quite like them for that, good arrangement to get all guns to bear on targets. I have played a bit of Ranked and Random with Richelieu, mixed results.

I remember one ranked when I defended a cap in a Richelieu against two attacking BB’s. I was bow towards them, full reverse. Considering my low skill level and that I took them both down means they were lousy players. All they would have needed to do is split up to get an angle, but that was too hard, I guess. In the end they got into secondaries range and burnt to death, cap defended (just) and match won.

Cannot claim I fully master the type of ship. It is easy to go full-speed towards them, especially in a fast ship like Richelieu. With Richelieu (and Nelson) you really have to avoid showing a lot of broadside. When you get too close to the team, they will get your broadside.

Because you don’t have to swing X/Y turrets around 270 degrees, switching targets from side to side is much quicker.

I’m sure other have much smarter things to say.

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16 hours ago, icy_phoenix said:

Memes apart, this video was from a time when Missouri had raised citadels. It's still pretty easy to citadel but not as easy as it was in the past. And this is almost point blank shot. If you read the previous comments here, you will probably understand the context a bit better.

one question though. Why Izumo's 2nd turret cannot traverse 360?

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1 hour ago, mr_glitchy_R said:

Why Izumo's 2nd turret cannot traverse 360?

Same goes to Myoko/Atago/ARP Takao "B" turrets, Nelson middle turret, etc. (correct me if I'm wrong) Some turrets of the similar placement in game may not be able to as well, like Benson, Fletcher, Maass, Z-23?

I think that IRL those turrets also couldn't do that either. I don't really know.

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