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User_1145141919810

Never add submarine into PVP

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There're 3 things I hate most in game:

1.BOT

2.Battle Rigger(i.e.:BuddyA**an and his little friends)

3.Noobs(e.g. Cowards that hide at the rear of map/13300 Kagero).

They all will ruin the game.This is why I never play PVP without division now.

Adding submarine will make factor 3 more awful.

 

Terror of the deep is the easiest scenario ever.

Enemy CA/BB won't even hurt you as long as you press C  when they fires.Your only threat is Steel Rat's deep water bomb.

This makes DD even more important,especially after CV rework,no one else can spot.

At this time,DD is even more important than CV:Cap,Spot,Kill Submarine.

Now it is not rare to see 13300 Kagero,17900 shima without camo ruining the whole game in PVP.

What about when submarine,a kind of ship that no one except DD and submarine itself can kill has been added?

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Beta Tester
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Are you the next Sharkabek?

At least Subs O2 wont last long for early model . So plus at any angles with main gun will kill them easily.

I'm afraid like you, you cant even try to tell WG to not add submarines.

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[CLAY]
Alpha Tester
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I was anti-subs in games, but more to do with their top surface speed of 18kts (slower then the slowest battleship in-game) and only half that speed once submerged for most subs of that time(7-9kts).

But I feel the game needs something new. That slow speed could be over come with some useful spawn points.

As a DD commander the only worry I have is the work load that will be placed upon us ie. DD go cap/hunt DD's/spot enemy/kill that sub chasing my BB, be in 4 places at once......"WHY can't you be in 4 places at once DD captain?????"

:cap_fainting:

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3 hours ago, BigWaveSurfer said:

As a DD commander the only worry I have is the work load that will be placed upon us ie. DD go cap/hunt DD's/spot enemy/kill that sub chasing my BB, be in 4 places at once......"WHY can't you be in 4 places at once DD captain?????"

This reminds me of that Modern Warfare 2 meme: "Ramirez, do everything". Cruisers do have deep charges too, and that also increases our influence in the game.

Subs in real life: slow AF (even when surfaced), tiny torpedo arc, next-to-nothing armor and can be spotted permanently by planes. Most cruiser secondary can send them to Davy Jones' locker. Also the need of Oxygen makes them extremely vulnerable. Hydro can spot subs. Any cheeky CV captain can hover their planes over a sub, force the player to surface and drop bombs/rockets (RIP). At least DDs have smoke. 

Sub players be like "buff sub armor, we can't survive anything", "why are subs so slow". Well because that's what they are IRL. BB players be like "remove subs from the game", "nerf torpedoes".

"Be careful what you wish for" - WarGaming, April 1st, 2017.

 

On one hand, I dislike (playing) subs. On the other hand, I'd like the amount of salt being poured into the forum.

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Back to the OP a bit:

If there is one thing everyone should know from the implementation of subs in the game (watch Mr. Conway's interview with Philigula about subs), that is:

Subs in this Halloween Operation DO NOT represent subs IF they are coming to the base game.

Subs coming to the base game is an "IF" not a "WHEN". IF subs are coming to the base game, things will change. You think WW1/2 subs have torpedoes that freeze the ships they hit? You think that those historical subs are THAT fast underwater?

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2 hours ago, Paladinum said:

...and can be spotted permanently by planes. .

From recent reading: not actually (unless in the Caribbean apparently, where the water is clear to a considerable depth [caveat: oil spills/leaks allowing]). Detection by air of subs below periscope depth should be problematic, and certainly not possible at maximum depth. Although, as you note, air restrictions and slow speed when submerged should restrict the distance a sub can achieve before having to resurface, making it potentially possible for skilled aviators to potentially predict and spot subs frequently enough to make their life precarious. 

That said, WG's failure to prevent radar from seeing through islands gives me zero reason to expect that WG would get this right.

...

The OP has expressed his critical opinion of other players both here and elsewhere. It's not an attitude I support as it leads to hostile and diminished player pools. We need to develop players, not exclude them. And where they're not up to par and on your team, know that in another game they'll be on the red team. Belief that the MM is singling anyone out in particular for suffering disproportionately poor teams is just 'magical thinking' and probably means that any such player needs to log out for a while. (Note: I'm not saying the OP is indulging in 'magical thinking'; he's just expressing a hostile and elitist opinion/attitude).

...

Personally, I've always been interested in a sub game, but when faced with it here, I'm not sure it's something I desire in a PvP game, for reasons of game balance. How can WG make sub play interesting enough for submariners, without having a significant impact on surface ships? I can see battles being either too boring (if at all realistic) for subs or too stressful for ships, and I worry about that damaging the game.

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8 hours ago, BigWaveSurfer said:

I was anti-subs in games, but more to do with their top surface speed of 18kts (slower then the slowest battleship in-game) and only half that speed once submerged for most subs of that time(7-9kts).

But I feel the game needs something new. That slow speed could be over come with some useful spawn points.

As a DD commander the only worry I have is the work load that will be placed upon us ie. DD go cap/hunt DD's/spot enemy/kill that sub chasing my BB, be in 4 places at once......"WHY can't you be in 4 places at once DD captain?????"

:cap_fainting:

 

I was once a Silent Hunter player. I played my plans carefully , destroying cargo boats like a U-bote days in Europe Atlantic. I mean its for my skill use.

But yeah that game really needs new kind of content. I want subs so i can get my inner Silent Hunter skills back. It's better than just using the same ol pathetic 4 Classes. Therefore is kinda going to get old if there was no new class content nor good things here. It will be ended up like most certain games like my old Navyfield.

And to top that off DD will pose a threat to SS since Depth Charges are a real thing to feel the pain.

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For all the work WG put into it - and it seemed very polished - I didn't find subs much fun to play. I can only imagine they'd be even less fun to play against.

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21 hours ago, Farlesquew said:

 

That said, WG's failure to prevent radar from seeing through islands gives me zero reason to expect that WG would get this right.

Well to be fair radars in reality would not able to see ships IN FRONT of island as well, which will make radar implementation useless in game (unless in ocean map which we all hate)

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23 hours ago, Paladinum said:

.....

Subs in real life: ..... tiny torpedo arc, n.....

WWII Torpedo bearing can be set to near 90 degree from the tube bearing.  though it is harder to aim due to analogue torpedo computer available at the time

 

torpbearing.jpg

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As someone who plays a lot of BBs, usually by myself (not in division), I am very wary of any ship which is difficult to directly counter, or mitigate damage from.

i.e. If a Hakuryu comes at you with 3 TB squads, cruisers are elsewhere or dead, ally CV cannot get planes to you in time, or is otherwise occupied, there is little you can do, you can’t angle yourself, or position correctly, because you likely didn’t see them coming until about 20 secs before they attack. You are going to take a lot of damage.

Similar problems against stealth DDs, very hard for a lone BB to counter a DD. Though there is a least a chance, stay away from island and keep changing speed and direction. Pretty sure the closest they can get is 5.4km.

Now, if a sub has an even smaller detection range than DD (which I would expect), what’s to stop them coming up to 3 to 4 kms and launching torps at point blank at your slow moving BB. Even if you detect them, how do you fight back? Even if all ships are equipped with depth charges, how close would sub need to get to you in order to be hit by one?

All ships should have a resonable way to counter other ships based on player skill. Obviously some ships and ship types will be far superior, but there should at least be a chance.

These are some of the things which need to be considered, not just if they ever add subs, but for any ship type, such as CVs in the rework right now.

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22 hours ago, Max_Battle said:

I don't want subs in the game.

I wonder if WG would manage to implement subs in a way it will enrich the game and not ruin it.

They couldn't just use the subs form the current mission and throw them in the game. Realistically, the maps are too small for subs to work.

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You guys are worried over nothing.

WWII submarines are very very slow. The top level US submarines of the time (the Gato, Balao and Tench class) could only go 20Kts surfaced and 10Kts submerged. A very easy target to chase and kill which has to surface after a period. I dunno about the other nations, but you can bet they won't be fast when submerged.

The scenario mode also demonstrated how easy it is to dodge the incoming fish. It will take a bit of skill for a sub captain to hit a human player. The bots play very predictably in the scenario mode and they can manage to dodge reasonably well.

Given these facts even a South Carolina has a decent chance to evade.

I don't necessarily think they fit the game, as subs were never really involved in most naval battles outside of spotting and intelligence. But they probably wouldn't be the end of the world if they did turn up.

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22 hours ago, Sparcie said:

You guys are worried over nothing.

WWII submarines are very very slow. The top level US submarines of the time (the Gato, Balao and Tench class) could only go 20Kts surfaced and 10Kts submerged. A very easy target to chase and kill which has to surface after a period. I dunno about the other nations, but you can bet they won't be fast when submerged.

The scenario mode also demonstrated how easy it is to dodge the incoming fish. It will take a bit of skill for a sub captain to hit a human player. The bots play very predictably in the scenario mode and they can manage to dodge reasonably well.

Given these facts even a South Carolina has a decent chance to evade.

I don't necessarily think they fit the game, as subs were never really involved in most naval battles outside of spotting and intelligence. But they probably wouldn't be the end of the world if they did turn up.

Did WG/Wows ever tried to simulate anything historically accurate? German Navy? Soviet Navy? Not to mentioned the amount of resource held up for anti-sub warfare. The only thing is WOWS game maps had the scale like a sail-ship and ironclad era scenario.

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