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Max_Battle

How do you judge the worth of Secondaries?

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What are the factors to take into consideration when determining if secondaries are good, bad or mediocre?

There are some extremes of course - ie Bismarck good, Texas bad but what about others who are in between?

I ask because a couple of weeks back when Raptor was the op of the week, I set up new New Mexico (new new) with a secondary module and without even having a captain with any secondary skills, seemed to be on par with Bayern?

I didn't do any kind of scientific assessment and maybe the small sample I had was not useful but it made me question why the wiki says New Mexico has weak secondaries?

So, what are the considerations?

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1. RANGE

2. RANGE

3. RANGE

4. number of secondary

5. type of shell (yamato did have long range secondary but ITS AP)

 

1 hour ago, Max_Battle said:

I ask because a couple of weeks back when Raptor was the op of the week, I set up new New Mexico (new new) with a secondary module and without even having a captain with any secondary skills, seemed to be on par with Bayern?

Bayern got secondary BB down line.....the skill perk can be usefull later...

Murica dont have unless you are buying  masasuseh

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It's obtuse, perhaps deliberately. There's your basic range, gun count, rate of fire, damage. There's the modifiers from modules, skills, and flags. Then there's stuff like fire chance and dispersion. Off to the top of my head I cannot tell you why Warspite is so much better than New York that it's worth speccing for secondaries, but it is.

Can't comment on operations either, but for PvP the only decision is "to buff or not to buff", and frankly only a few ships are worth the effort considering the choice involves downgrades to the main armament, loss of ship concealment or giving up other perks. It also seems to me that it's an all-or-nothing decision: leave stock or buff to max.

Finally, secondaries are more for fun than having any practical, min-max merit. Both my Scharnhorst and Warspite are secondary build now, just for variety. I think the most I've managed in a battle is 3k-4k of secondary damage, though I picked up a couple of "close quarters expert" achievements. The most practical benefit I've noticed is actually as a DD repellant. Once Warspite opens up at 7 km or so on a detected DD, they high tail it out of there, any thoughts of yolo-ing banished from their little heads.

Edited by Rina_Pon

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Super Tester
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Range

Type of shells and gun caliber

Penetration

Survivability of those guns against HE spam.

 

Rule of thumb, do not bother with secondaries unless the base range is at least 7 km.

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There are plenty of considerations, such as range, rate of fire, number of guns, AP or HE shells, etc.

Imo the most important consideration is range. Unlike PvE bots, human players are very unwilling to get close to BBs. And if enemies aren't in range of your secondaries, then they are totally useless. This is part of what makes the German BBs and other ships like the Massachusetts good Secondary ships.

But apart from direct damage, another benefit of secondaries is starting fires, which is why HE shells and rate of fire is also favoured on secondaries. USN BBs aren't very popular for Secondary builds because of their relatively low RoF (and their range). AP is not very useful on secondaries unless the target is a DD or cruiser presenting a flat broadside, which is seldom the case. And because secondaries are of lower calibre, secondary AP shells tend to just shatter on BBs and bounce against angled cruisers or even DDs. Unfortunately most of IJN secondaries barring Izumo and Yamato fire AP, which limits their usefulness.

Another major consideration is of course the ship itself. Utilising secondaries means you need to get close to the enemy. So those ships should naturally have good survivalbility. German BBs are good because of the turtleback, while Yamato suffers because of its above water citadel which means it can be citadeled at close range.

 

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Ok, so a quick comparison of Bayern and New Mexico secondaries shows that Bayern fires a mix of HE and AP while New Mex fires all HE.

New Mex has higher fire chance while Bayern has 1km longer base range.

So I guess that means in a game where many enemies come within the range of either secondaries, the New Mexico does indeed have the advantage over Bayern?

Even worse for Bayern with upgraded hulls.

Kind of means even though German BB, Bayern is not worth a secondary build!?

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28 minutes ago, icy_phoenix said:

 

Rule of thumb, do not bother with secondaries unless the base range is at least 7 km.

 

What are you calling base range? Raw stat on hull or with module?

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Range and........... the ship basicly,

its not sluggish, its got good angle so it wont expose the broadside and its important to have ability for closing in to made use of that secondary

 

all quality that Grosser Kurfurst doesnt have (everyone see it coming from miles away,  broad angle needed to expose all your little guns to target, its sluggish and have problem manuvering in closing quarter)

 

caliber, fire chance is secondary. if the secondary is on bad angle (like jean bart) they cant fire at all (despite on paper its seems good on paper)

Edited by humusz

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1 hour ago, Max_Battle said:

What are you calling base range? Raw stat on hull or with module?

Without upgrade slot modules, captain skills and signals.

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3 hours ago, Max_Battle said:

So I guess that means in a game where many enemies come within the range of either secondaries, the New Mexico does indeed have the advantage over Bayern?

The damage your secondary batteries can inflict is a function of how much time the enemy stays within gun range. The longer the range, the longer the time the enemy ships are under fire.

Looking at N.Mex vs. Warspite, the main thing is Warspite has 5 km base range vs. 4 km for the ISN BB. 5 (+40%) = 7 km is marginal, but in addition Warspite has 50% faster reload and some additional fire chance, and all the guns are front firing. So it's kinda ok. N. Mex is 5.6 km range even with AFT and the module. Completely not worth it. Ships almost never get that close.

Edited by Rina_Pon

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6 minutes ago, Max_Battle said:

Ok, thanks all. There's no black magic here it seems. Just the stats ma'am.

Either way, most of the time secondaries are just fireworks that look cool more than anything. Here are two of my FdG games to show you what I mean. I had secondary range, secondary signal, AFT, manual secondary and AR. I have massive range on those secondaries. But do they really do enough damage? Not always. The fire damage is what you are looking for.

FdG_fullsec2.JPG.737d420115e8727cded3a39db87c2152.JPG

FdG_fullsec.JPG.a54238806e769bc642f58eb552ee42f8.JPG

 

Edited by icy_phoenix

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1 minute ago, icy_phoenix said:

Either way, most of the time secondaries are just fireworks that look cool more than anything. Here are two of my FdG games to show you what I mean. I had secondary range, secondary signal, AFT, manual secondary and AR. I have massive range on those secondaries. But do they really do enough damage? Not always.

FdG_fullsec2.JPG.737d420115e8727cded3a39db87c2152.JPG

FdG_fullsec.JPG.a54238806e769bc642f58eb552ee42f8.JPG

 

Yeah. I'm only up to Bismarck on that line. Fun for kiting away. Can be situational.

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12 hours ago, Max_Battle said:

Ok, so a quick comparison of Bayern and New Mexico secondaries shows that Bayern fires a mix of HE and AP while New Mex fires all HE.

New Mex has higher fire chance while Bayern has 1km longer base range.

So I guess that means in a game where many enemies come within the range of either secondaries, the New Mexico does indeed have the advantage over Bayern?

Even worse for Bayern with upgraded hulls.

Kind of means even though German BB, Bayern is not worth a secondary build!?

Bayern is definitely worth the build. German BB generally have better secondary angle to the front, means you can have a tight nose in secondary duel. And if you use stock builds it has even more secondary guns with lower reload time than B hull. More shells, more fire. New Mex just didn't have enough range and speed

I have yet to get a fully secondary captain build on Yamato but my Izumo is definitely worth using if you know how use it. Japanese BB don't have the tight nose secondary angle except on for kii or amagi so kiting is favourable.

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I guess the good/medium/bad refers to what difference it makes in a battle.

At the moment I have a fair few BB’s specced for secondaries, because I play a lot of operations. In Random battles, often the secondaries will not fire a single shot.

My New Mexi is not secondaries specced, but my Bayern and Warspite have 7.2km secondaries range, from memory. That’s quite effective in operations, often I have 10-20k damage on secondaries, that makes a difference. Even 5-6km secondaries range still makes a difference in operations, because you can stay alive with an enemy this close, and your secondaries chip away his health slowly.

Same 5km to 6km range in Random, that’s different. A DD coming this close in Random is probably charging you with all torpedo tubes armed from behind an island. Your secondaries will not do much damage until he empties his launchers and you go on a trip to the bottom.

 

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