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Robby_Hermanto

Reworked version weaknesses compared to conventional mode

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Dear developers, 

 

By this topic I would like to address findings of the new reworked CV version. To make it easier to understand, I might bring some comparison with previous conventional system. The purpose is to bring insight of what is going on and bringing you more creative ideas.

 

1. Devastating power is too high.

This talks about DPM (damage per minute). The new reworked CV has DPM more than two times as much compared to the conventional system. Please allow me to explain the steps on how the damage are performed and compare it with the conventional system.

 

New reworked system:

-Squadron take off (instant - no take off time).

-Fly to target.

-Drop bomb/torp/rocket

-Squadron fly back to ship (press F)

-The view is back to the ship, press a squadron number, take off (instant)

-Repeat process.

 

Highlight:

The new squadron had already off the ship to deliver another damage to target while the previous squadron had just drop the torpedoes and flying back (the player even no need to wait and see if the torpedo hits). It means: half of the time required between each strike.

 

Conventional system:

-Squadron getting ready (required time is various depends on squadron type, upgrade, and captain perks).

-Squadron take off (require 10 - 12 secs before the whole squadron airborne).

-Fly to target

-Drop bomb/torp

-Squadron fly back to the ship

-Squadron landing (10 - 12 secs)

-Squadron re-arming (10-40 secs depend on squadron size and type)

--Squadron take off again (require 10 - 12 secs before the whole squadron airborne).

-repeat process.

 

Highlights:

Every process in the conventional system takes time, and every process must be done completely before proceed to next step.

The DPM is also much lower due to high plane to plane interaction (opponent fighter can intercept at anytime they have chance). A Captain must observe a situation very well before decide an approach to deliver a strike.

 

Recommendation:

Please implement some restriction to balance the power. Such like:

-All torp planes must be back to the ship before the next torp squadron launch.

-Take off takes time to get the whole squadron on air, like in the conventional system.

 

2. Fire and flood chances are too high.

Torp dropped, target flooded (seen from the damage counter), opponent use the damage control party, fly around to wait for the duration expires, drop torp for a second time. Good bye and fair seas.

The same way for bomb.

When I use Yamato, no shell ever kill me besides fire and flood. No ship ever killed by shells unless they are bots, detonated, or abundantly citadeled in a salvo.

 

Recommendation:

Significantly reduce the fire chance of bombs and flood chance of torpedoes. The other way is to increase immune period for fire/flood after an aerial strike. Just for by air strike, not other regular ships.

 

3. Helpless CV/Instant sniping.

At first, it may looks balanced when players start to adapt and learning on how the things work. After an experienced player mastered the art of torpedo salvo.................

At battle start, we CV player knows exactly where is opponent CV location by just reflecting our CV position on our square to the location of the opponent CV on the mirroring square at the opposite edge.

Fly directly to the helpless target CV. Nothing is special. The squadron may slightly maneuvering and change courses to avoid AA ships. Once the target reached, drop torpedo is as easy as hitting straight sailing ships at training room. Fly around to wait for opponent damage control party expired (if opponent decide to press F, back to the ship view, and use the item).

A CV in the new reworked system must be accompanied by at least 1 cruiser with good AA at all time, otherwise she will be the first ship sinks.

 

Recommendation:

Enable the whole squadrons to take off, although only 1 squadron can be played like in the current system.

Please enable take off/landing time.

The other squadrons work as plane to plane interaction which perform dog fight automatically when approached. They only fly around the CV like all spotting aircrafts do, despite it is a fighter squadron, torp squadron, or bombers. (Torp and bomb squadrons according to the history also have guns and rear gunner. They also able to perform dog fight although not as excel as fighters).

When a squadron is ordered to back for re-arm, it is only empty planes that going to land, the rest should be flying around the CV.

The same thing when a fully armed squadron ordered to fly home. They will just fly around the CV instead of landing.

By this way, AA cruisers will have their wind when approaching a CV to shot down all squadrons flying around it.

When a ship attacks a CV, the whole flying squadrons will approach to storm the ship automatically.

 

This is my review so far. Critics and suggestions are always welcome.

 

Edited by Robby_Hermanto

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I think you are definitely on the right track...

I'm in the middle of doing up a big rework post going into detail of how to make the new rework better.

DOTs need to be seriously reduced and a balance between not being repetitive, able to do damage and ships being able to defend themselves needs to be found.

Watch the forums, dunno how long it's going to take me to refine and finish it up but I'll definitely be posting it in the forums

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5 hours ago, Robby_Hermanto said:

Dear developers, 

 

By this topic I would like to address findings of the new reworked CV version. To make it easier to understand, I might bring some comparison with previous conventional system. The purpose is to bring insight of what is going on and bringing you more creative ideas.

 

1. Devastating power is too high.

This talks about DPM (damage per minute). The new reworked CV has DPM more than two times as much compared to the conventional system. Please allow me to explain the steps on how the damage are performed and compare it with the conventional system.

 

New reworked system:

-Squadron take off (instant - no take off time).

-Fly to target.

-Drop bomb/torp/rocket

-Squadron fly back to ship (press F)

-The view is back to the ship, press a squadron number, take off (instant)

-Repeat process.

 

Highlight:

The new squadron had already off the ship to deliver another damage to target while the previous squadron had just drop the torpedoes and flying back (the player even no need to wait and see if the torpedo hits). It means: half of the time required between each strike.

 

Conventional system:

-Squadron getting ready (required time is various depends on squadron type, upgrade, and captain perks).

-Squadron take off (require 10 - 12 secs before the whole squadron airborne).

-Fly to target

-Drop bomb/torp

-Squadron fly back to the ship

-Squadron landing (10 - 12 secs)

-Squadron re-arming (10-40 secs depend on squadron size and type)

--Squadron take off again (require 10 - 12 secs before the whole squadron airborne).

-repeat process.

 

Highlights:

Every process in the conventional system takes time, and every process must be done completely before proceed to next step.

The DPM is also much lower due to high plane to plane interaction (opponent fighter can intercept at anytime they have chance). A Captain must observe a situation very well before decide an approach to deliver a strike.

 

Recommendation:

Please implement some restriction to balance the power. Such like:

-All torp planes must be back to the ship before the next torp squadron launch.

-Take off takes time to get the whole squadron on air, like in the conventional system.

 

2. Fire and flood chances are too high.

Torp dropped, target flooded (seen from the damage counter), opponent use the damage control party, fly around to wait for the duration expires, drop torp for a second time. Good bye and fair seas.

The same way for bomb.

When I use Yamato, no shell ever kill me besides fire and flood. No ship ever killed by shells unless they are bots, detonated, or abundantly citadeled in a salvo.

 

Recommendation:

Significantly reduce the fire chance of bombs and flood chance of torpedoes. The other way is to increase immune period for fire/flood after an aerial strike. Just for by air strike, not other regular ships.

 

3. Helpless CV/Instant sniping.

At first, it may looks balanced when players start to adapt and learning on how the things work. After an experienced player mastered the art of torpedo salvo.................

At battle start, we CV player knows exactly where is opponent CV location by just reflecting our CV position on our square to the location of the opponent CV on the mirroring square at the opposite edge.

Fly directly to the helpless target CV. Nothing is special. The squadron may slightly maneuvering and change courses to avoid AA ships. Once the target reached, drop torpedo is as easy as hitting straight sailing ships at training room. Fly around to wait for opponent damage control party expired (if opponent decide to press F, back to the ship view, and use the item).

A CV in the new reworked system must be accompanied by at least 1 cruiser with good AA at all time, otherwise she will be the first ship sinks.

 

Recommendation:

Enable the whole squadrons to take off, although only 1 squadron can be played like in the current system.

Please enable take off/landing time.

The other squadrons work as plane to plane interaction which perform dog fight automatically when approached. They only fly around the CV like all spotting aircrafts do, despite it is a fighter squadron, torp squadron, or bombers. (Torp and bomb squadrons according to the history also have guns and rear gunner. They also able to perform dog fight although not as excel as fighters).

When a squadron is ordered to back for re-arm, it is only empty planes that going to land, the rest should be flying around the CV.

The same thing when a fully armed squadron ordered to fly home. They will just fly around the CV instead of landing.

By this way, AA cruisers will have their wind when approaching a CV to shot down all squadrons flying around it.

When a ship attacks a CV, the whole flying squadrons will approach to storm the ship automatically.

 

This is my review so far. Critics and suggestions are always welcome.

 

You are missing the most important part : You can only control one at a time.

Tell you what : in the old system , pretty sure i can 1 shot anything that doesnt have DFAA or friendlies with extreme AA power. You constantly deal damage , but your actual alpha is dropping significantly. And dont tell me you cant dodge , the new drop pattern can be avoided , dodging a triple cross pattern is no where as easy as avoiding 1 at a time.

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3 hours ago, legionary2099 said:

You are missing the most important part : You can only control one at a time.

Tell you what : in the old system , pretty sure i can 1 shot anything that doesnt have DFAA or friendlies with extreme AA power. You constantly deal damage , but your actual alpha is dropping significantly. And dont tell me you cant dodge , the new drop pattern can be avoided , dodging a triple cross pattern is no where as easy as avoiding 1 at a time.

Part of my big blurb I'm doing is 2 wings with new system and severe restrictions on spotting

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3 hours ago, legionary2099 said:

You are missing the most important part : You can only control one at a time.

Tell you what : in the old system , pretty sure i can 1 shot anything that doesnt have DFAA or friendlies with extreme AA power. You constantly deal damage , but your actual alpha is dropping significantly. And dont tell me you cant dodge , the new drop pattern can be avoided , dodging a triple cross pattern is no where as easy as avoiding 1 at a time.

Control one at a time

That's right. We can only control one at a time. However, due to instant take off and no need to wait for the squadrons fly back for re-arm (just launch another new one after the previous one drop its load), it is mitigate the alpha drop that suppose to be really factually expectedly dropped.

This time I don't have a screen shot yet. I will be back to you with screnshots for easier understanding of the point I want to address.

In the conventional system, my capability in T6 Ryujo averagely 90k~150k damage per battle (random battle).

In the new rework system, my capability bumped up at minimum 155k damage per battle (random battle). Max was 190k, but I believe that is not my edge capability yet.

This means: I delivered more damage than I used to with the old system.

Conclusion: The damage is still too significant and must be reduced.

 

New Drop Pattern is avoidable

All kind of drop pattern has chances to be avoidable. A single drop might be easier.

From what I feel by playing just less than 100 total battle in the test server, a single drop in the new reworked system is more deadly than the conventional one.

Reason:

- It is totally manual. Every player is forced to learn it. Once you get the feel on your squadrons, you drop torpedoes really close as like activated 1 inch before hit. It is really hard to be avoided.

-Easier to be avoided? Yes theorically. In fact it is harder. Because defensive fire consumables will not scatter the drop pattern. The squadrons are mindlessly determined like a zombie. If you don't mind of losing planes or gambling if they are able to reach the target before all being shot down, every torp that managed to touch the water is most likely will hit.

-In the conventional system, there are lots of factor that will distract a player focus when performing a strike. For example: Approaching opponent fighters while the torp squadron approaching in for a strike. That contributes to the accuracy decision quality of the player. Although all T6 above able to perform manual drop, the accuracy quality will not as good as in the new reworked system, where in the reworked system you have: a clear visual pathway from the wing commander cockpit and no distraction from opponent's fighters. What is in a player mind is optimally focus to calculate the impact point as close as possible. No side factor.

Edited by Robby_Hermanto

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9 hours ago, Robby_Hermanto said:

By this topic I would like to address findings of the new reworked CV version. To make it easier to understand, I might bring some comparison with previous conventional system. The purpose is to bring insight of what is going on and bringing you more creative ideas.

I think you're missing the point of the current round of testing.  DPM, dot damage, speed to target, all that sort of thing isn't relevant - those are just balancing issues.  What is important is mechanical issues - do the planes function correctly, are the consumables appropriate and effective, do the planes fly the approach in a way that functions well, is the interaction between ships and planes satisfying, does the AA interaction work well, how should direct CV control function - that sort of thing.  Only once they have all the mechanics sorted will they start looking at balance.

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9 hours ago, Robby_Hermanto said:

The other squadrons work as plane to plane interaction which perform dog fight automatically when approached. They only fly around the CV like all spotting aircrafts do, despite it is a fighter squadron, torp squadron, or bombers. (Torp and bomb squadrons according to the history also have guns and rear gunner. They also able to perform dog fight although not as excel as fighters

This.

Also i don't love the Fighters as Consumables after all since its ruining the whole aspect of CV Rework-esque stuff.

To tell you the truth, CVs need Fighters, and not as consumables. Fighters are the main reason why CV needs Fighters instead of those Rocket-Attackers, or just change Fighters into Multirole Aircraft, they can shoot down planes and smash ships with their bombs or rockets or both at the same time.

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13 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

I think you're missing the point of the current round of testing.  DPM, dot damage, speed to target, all that sort of thing isn't relevant - those are just balancing issues.  What is important is mechanical issues - do the planes function correctly, are the consumables appropriate and effective, do the planes fly the approach in a way that functions well, is the interaction between ships and planes satisfying, does the AA interaction work well, how should direct CV control function - that sort of thing.  Only once they have all the mechanics sorted will they start looking at balance.

It is relevant my friend. Malfunctioning mechanism causing imbalance. How do we know if a function is working well as intended or malfunctioned - not working like as it is intended? We never know. Our duty is to test and to report what we experienced.

One example I'd like to bring out of many other examples:

The instant take off and landing time.

-Does it malfunctioned as it suppose to requiring time to take off?

-Does it really intended to be instant for certain reasons?

We never know. Our duty is just to test and report what we find.

Regarding the cause is mechanical or balancing scenario issues, lets let the Developers decide the best decision according to their expertise.

Edited by Robby_Hermanto

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Just now, Robby_Hermanto said:

It is relevant my friend. Malfunctioning mechanism causing imbalance. How do we know if a function is working well as intended or malfunctioned - not working like as it is intended? We never know. Our dutybis to test and report what we experienced.

One example I'd like to bring out of many other examples:

The instant take off and landing time.

-Does it malfunctioned as they suppose to requiring time to take off?

-Does it really intended to be instant for certain reasons?

We never know. Our duty is just to test and report what we find.

Regarding the cause is mechanical or balancing scenario issues, lets let the Developers decide the best decision according to their expertise.

They havent tweaked the respawn time for shot down aircraft. As the alpha test 1st iteration they want us to try out as much as we can during a match and not waiting for planes to be available hence the ridiculously fast rearm time.

You see , when your planes got shot down and respawn time tweaked to be longer , the whole constant DPS problem drop down drastically since you can no longer maintain constant pounding.

And also , adding FT dogfight to the show is overwhelming for the majority , since they already have too much on their plate for 1 at a time concept.

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7 minutes ago, legionary2099 said:

And also , adding FT dogfight to the show is overwhelming for the majority , since they already have too much on their plate for 1 at a time concept.

Ah yes, Fighters, i want to see them dogfighting instead of circling around and as consumables.

Some Fighters carry bombs to smash ships, like the A6M5 and the F6F-5

Others were the F4F and the A6M2, They both carried 100kg or 200lbs bombs.

Related image

Image result for F6F Hellcat 500lb bomb

 

Edited by BIGCOREMKP0I

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do whatever it is to make plane able to shoot down by player skill, not a RNG or AA stat

if surface ship player have enough skill, all plane would be shot down even before reach the ship (since rework make CV have unlimited plane, this shouldn't be any problem)

 

make CV think, "oh, this guy has highly AA skill, I should avoid him"

NOT "oh, this ship have high AA stat, I should avoid him"

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I posted this in another thread and here it go again:

Quote

While I can see why they go to a squadron simulator direction, I don't understand why they abandon the RTS gameplay of carriers (of all things) in the first place. I probably never will. They are carriers. They are meant to be different. To me, that's the selling point of carriers. The battlefield is entirely within my sight and delivering strikes anywhere is my job.
The RTS style also allows easy control of the carrier at the same time as the planes, as well as allowing easy addition of hybrid ships like Ise-class (she's in WoWS Blitz now, btw).

The current state of the CV rework is still hazy. Certain plane weapons deal so much damage and certain ships have more AA power than they should be. As of now, balancing those is still a secondary goal, and there are still a bunch of other things that need to be done.

They aren't done yet and they act like everything is done. We even have RN carriers in the Dev Blog.
Hold your horses there WG.

 

Why not start with re-balancing damage of aircraft weapons? Changing squadron size and number of squadrons? Testing how a gameplay without Manual attack would work, and with a more accurate auto drop, or maybe adding a universal cooldown for Manual attack? Reworking AA and increasing plane's HP so planes don't die as often? Letting carriers have unlimited planes but longer service time?
Why don't start there? Why jump the gun to an entirely different gameplay?

Heck, they can incorporate some aspects of the new gameplay into the old RTS gameplay. Like, new AA system. Like, press a button while selecting a strike squadron and you can switch from RTS bird's eye view to the new simulator style and control the planes manually, just like the new gameplay. Other strike squadrons can only do auto drop as ordered. No more 3-squadron manual drop alpha strike. Fighters get to do their job without being turned into consumable. You still have full control of the carrier. This is still a warship game.

Just some suggestions. A 5-minute thought.

 

I just don't get it.

I'd like to add that a commenter in Dev Blog noted me about WoWS Legend - WoWS on Xbox 1. And the RTS style probably doesn't fit there, but then again:

Quote

They are carriers. They are meant to be different. To me, that's the selling point of carriers. The battlefield is entirely within my sight and delivering strikes anywhere is my job.

 

Edited by Paladinum

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4 hours ago, BIGCOREMKP0I said:

Ah yes, Fighters, i want to see them dogfighting instead of circling around and as consumables.

Some Fighters carry bombs to smash ships, like the A6M5 and the F6F-5

Others were the F4F and the A6M2, They both carried 100kg or 200lbs bombs.

Related image

Image result for F6F Hellcat 500lb bomb

 

Sure we can have that , then its back to CV dueling again. When one player spend time in his FT shooting down ( denying ) the other CV all game. Both dont get time to deal damage and focus on dueling instead. Wasnt that the problem with air superiority loadout like 201 Bogue ? You dont get to drop and i dont either concept. Yeah , focus on feedback that improve what they already have on the plate instead of asking for more which they couldnt provide and in the end get nothing done. Get the interactions done one by one by one. If i want to shoot planes all the freaking time then WoWP might be a better game.

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