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waichung1823

Do you Like the New Mechanism for BB AP against DD?

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So WG indirectly buff DD in terms of decreasing maximum AP pen damage ( above 280mm AP shell) from BB & certain CA. 

 

What do you think? Does it heavily affects BB players and encourage BB to be more situation awareness for changing shell type rather than just spamming AP? I have seen lots of disagreement from players reply in Development blog. 

 

Ps : i m a BB player anyway. 

 

Screenshot_2018-10-17-19-44-03-265_com.facebook.katana.png

Edited by waichung1823

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No. Because of one thing : IT is not universal , it is too specific because they left out the 2 tankiest dd for obvious reasons.

They really need to clarify between being a DD who get the buff and DL : destroyer leaders or gimmick CL who dont.

This will cause a ton of confusion if they choose to go ahead with this implementation.

Also instead of being so specific , that could just add a mechanism that is the opposite of overmatch. When the shell caliber is larger than a certain ratio , it is automatically an overpen.

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[ZA]
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It is still super testing right? But anyway, it not change much how BB play, because AP shell is still better option against DD.

However, it will affect how DD play in term of evading shell, or in some case DD would be more likely to yolo rush an isolated BB. 

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Don't like this change. I personally hope it doesn't go through.

I would rather WG just solve the double-dipping problem where a shell can sometimes do both normal pen and overpen damage on a single target.

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this change is appropriate for me.

with cheat progran radar become norm, DD being spot and fall victim for focus fire from everything is unavoidable. 

rapid fire CA and gunboatDD is hard enough 1 shell that eat 50% HP from BB is insane.

as BB that isolate from group and get rush by DD, I guess he deserve it.

 

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I don think it really addresses many of the issues, feels like a knee jerk band aid.

Setting the bar at 283mm is too low IMHO. I think Notser said its more of a high tier issue and I tend to agree.The sigma on most mid tier BBS is so crap that AP pen damage T5 - 7 is not a problem I feel blapping around in a farragut, minsk shira etc etc.

And cruisers, even those with big 280 - 300s should be able to wreck DDs - in the alleged paper/scissors/rock meta anyway. I guess they can switch to HE quicker. Maybe WG is trying to push people to take Expert Loader more 😋

Radar is the bogey man - giving the chapeyev nearly 2 km of radar stealth window is crazy for example. Plus all the other radar issues - going through islands etc etc.

 

 

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Not really. Not all shells hit a close enough DD and not all do full pen. In the post they said that it's rare, but no, not rare at all. While being dev strike by BB AP is a real and frequent issue, I don't think this would be a good solution.

Before this, WG proposed a solution that is to reduce plating from 19 to 13 mm on high-tier DDs (IIRC), to make guns bigger than 379 mm (IIRC) do more overpen, and most cruiser guns will do more full pen. This is NOT a bad idea. After all, cruisers are supposed to be the best DD counter, not BBs. With all the radar ships around, I can imagine how the DD population is affected by that.

What I can say is the 3D models of DDs in this game are inflated, larger in proportion to other ship types. WG could shrink the size of the ships' 3D models to make most full pen into overpen. But this is definitely the most time-consuming solution, I can see why they don't want to do it. But does it hurt if they try, even on just 1 or 2 DDs?

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I love how they use 12 shells on the Montana as an example. How often does 12 shells hit a DD.

That will only happen if the DD is point blank range and both ships are near broadside to each other. In which case the B.B. will not last long either.

I worry that it will encourage BBs to camp more and keep their distance. And also that it will discourage BBs from shooting DDs at all.

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Not quite sure.

 

In a way it’s strange that BB’s routinely one-shot cruisers, but not DD’s.

 

I believe there is some logic in the AP shell being armed when it travels through the length of a DD.

 

On the other hand, DD’s have it hard enough with all the radar these days.

 

I believe that really is something that should be left to the testers to try and give reports.

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I think this is a good change (note I mostly play DD's, so no doubt there is some bias there).

The number one reason why the BB AP on DD's issue is a major problem that needs fixing, is because it simultaneously rewards bad behaviour for the BB's, while punishing good behaviour for the DD's.  This is exactly the opposite of what good game design should be.

Firstly, DD's when they are spotted and come under fire should obviously try to avoid incoming fire.  Now to do this you need to kite away while maneuvering - this is a good play, since you make yourself the smallest possible target while gaining distance on enemy ships.  The problem is that BB AP needs to pass through a minimum effective armour thickness to arm the fuse (usually calibre/6, so for say a Montana's 406mm guns, it needs 68mm armour to fuse).  The shell cannot cause a pen (or citadel for larger ships) unless it fuses, and if it doesn't fuse it will always do an overpen.  The only way to get that on a DD's thin armour is for the shell to strike the DD at a high angle (>74° for a Montana on a high tier DD's 19mm hull armour).  Also the shell needs to still be in the ship when it detonates, which happens a short time after it fuses (standard fuse timer is 0.033s, although it's different on many ships) - so if a shell hits a broadside DD's deck armour and fuses, it is going to pass through the far hull of the DD before detonating outside the ship and causing an overpen. 

So usually the only time the circumstances to cause a pen is going to happen is when the DD is bow or stern on to the incoming shell - or when the DD is doing what is supposed to be the right thing and kiting away!  In this case the DD is punished for the correct play.  If the DD decides he doesn't want to risk eating a BB AP reg pen (for a quarter of it's health!) he can choose to do what should be the suboptimal play and stay broadside.  This should ensure no BB AP pens.  The problem is that the DD is then a much easier target to hit, and a much bigger target, which means it will eat far more of the shells from the BB's salvo (3 overpens = 1 reg pen in terms of damage), so likely will take similar amounts of damage.  Not only this, but then everyone else shooting at the DD (so any cruisers or DD's) will have a much easier time hitting the DD with their HE shells.  So basically the DD has no right move in this situation, except to kite away and hope that the BB is a poor shot, and RNG dispersion doesn't land a shell even with a bad shot.  It's the lack of a good play option that makes this poor game design.

Secondly we can look at the BB.  The correct ammo type that is supposed to be used against DD's is HE.  This does extremely good damage while breaking a lot of the DD's fragile modules.  The idea is that if the BB has had the awareness to know that they are likely to fire a shot at a DD soon, and thus loaded HE, they are rewarded with great damage and lots of broken modules.  If they didn't have that awareness and had the wrong ammo type for DD's (AP) loaded, then they can still get some good damage through overpens (each overpen does about 8% of a DD's health bar), but it won't be as effective as using the correct shell type.  The problem comes in where you can get better damage using AP by landing reg pens.  This means there is now no need to change shell types, which completely removes what is supposed to be a core part of skilled BB play.  This makes BB's (ships that are supposed to be all about rewarding the ability to predict ahead of time what to do and where to be) too easy to play, and removes a key reward system, and is also an example of poor game design.

So overall I think this is a great change. If WG has a concern that some ships are too good, and some not good enough after the change, then they should (and no doubt will) buff or nerf appropriately in other ways.  However the change should still go through for the above reasons, and this is why WG have been so keen to change it for the last year or more.

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Personally, I think they should have an auto overpen number of 90% of HE Pen damage.  I find that starting at T6 or T7 depending on the line, the HE pen damage is lower than the AP Overpen damage, which is BS. 

This fix would solve everything and encourage BB's to switch ammo for DD

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44 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

And also that it will discourage BBs from shooting DDs at all.

Probably not the smartest play imo.

9 minutes ago, PeterMoe1963 said:

 

In a way it’s strange that BB’s routinely one-shot cruisers, but not DD’s.

 

I believe there is some logic in the AP shell being armed when it travels through the length of a DD.

 

An 'angled' cruiser does not get routinely one shot, only the ones who make a mistake get one shot.

A BB can routinely get 10k+ salvos on DD's at 12km, combined with the firepower of the DD spotting and a CA or 2 this is devastating to DD's.

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My BB biasness says current state is fine since there's still rng chance invovled in lobbing AP shells on showing the narrowest profile. Chances are its gonna miss on the first shot and they went concealed already assuming no radar around, but with radar, that is an actual problem.

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I'm of two minds with this proposed change. 

On the one hand: yeah, I get the gameplay mechanic of trying to get BB's to change ammo type around destroyers. That makes sense from a gameplay perspective and just plain works. 

On the other hand: there is a part of me just picturing a giant 381mm shell tearing the length of a destroyer's fragile body, absolutely gutting the boat like a dead fish before exiting the other side without exploding...and our in-game representation is a mere 10% of the destroyer's hp. To me that seems a little silly and overly game-ish. 

Maybe, in addition, there can be some sort of mechanic where bow or stern AP shots can do more damage with overpens? 

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59 minutes ago, leerm002 said:

On the other hand: there is a part of me just picturing a giant 381mm shell tearing the length of a destroyer's fragile body, absolutely gutting the boat like a dead fish before exiting the other side without exploding...and our in-game representation is a mere 10% of the destroyer's hp. To me that seems a little silly and overly game-ish. 

That makes me think about something else. How about making all BB AP shells behave like HE (without fire chance) when they hit a DD? By that I mean when an AP shell hits a DD, the fuse timer no longer exists and the shell explodes on contact, like any HE shell. Or a more simple solution would be making an AP shell from a BB disappears when it hits a DD. When the first (and only the first) damage count is checked, the shell simply vanishes.

While this leads to BB players no longer have to switch shell types (90% of them don't anyway), this will prevent the shell from penetrating beyond the ship's outer plating, thus preventing situations like you stated.

Edited by Paladinum

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I do not see the change able to address the balance issue ... I believe the more realistic solution is making AP shell above certain caliber ( I will set it at 210mm ) auto over pen and deal only minimal damage ( same as a 203 over pen ) on DD cause that is what really happen in real life the shell will not even explode since the fuse do not have enough depth of armor to arm and will simply over pen, hit the water then arm and explode in water usually not close enough to do anything more.

I do agree the real issue is in the Radars and the guns mechanics .. for real BB guns had not taken the elevation issue into consideration. And that applied to all guns in game DD, CA, CL also .. in real life there is a minimal range that any guns can fire upon because of gun elevation and this should apply and only the smallest of caliber like the 90mm and below could actually fire upon something real close.

Radar should not be ale to penetrate landmass , and Radar ship should also instantly reveal itself to enemy whenever it activate Radar and there is enemy ship in range. WG want the game to have a class of workhorse in the CA and that work out OK, then the big guns in BB and the DD suppose to be able to hot scout, spot, & snipe. And oh capping. And basically the mechanism right now made DD practically unable to effectively doing all these. The constant debuff to DD capability and trying to satisfy all too often big guns as regard AA, DD, CV etc made the other class basically unplayable.

Just like the CV, the DD class also need in itself mechanism overhaul. Say for spotting , there should be a total revamp of the scoring. it should not be a flat certain score for everything, spotting an enemy DD is far more dangerous and tougher than a BB, just as destroying a BB score more, spotting a DD should score more. Radar spotting should be excluded in scoring considering its over long reach and duration right now. Another thing is about the Torp. On low tier this is not a problem but with the game now the mid and high tier post a issue .. just like guns having HE and AP all DD should be allowed to switch between IMHO 3 type of torp hot , Low speed / long range, Std speed / default range ,  & high speed / short range. Torp should also automatically made flooding but the flooding time should also scale to the damage deal on the original hit ( this is also more to real world situation )

Another issue is fire, the mechanism is strongly biased towards BB player ( Tanking ) and the other class really suffer from the mechanism. it need to be addressed.

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7 hours ago, leerm002 said:

 

On the other hand: there is a part of me just picturing a giant 381mm shell tearing the length of a destroyer's fragile body, absolutely gutting the boat like a dead fish before exiting the other side without exploding...and our in-game representation is a mere 10% of the destroyer's hp. To me that seems a little silly and overly game-ish. 

Maybe, in addition, there can be some sort of mechanic where bow or stern AP shots can do more damage with overpens? 

I do not believe the mechanism right now would give an over pen if a BB AP hit a DD stern or bow , it will just do citadel since now its likely have enough armor depth to arm and enough length for the shell to move along and still arm and explode inside. So that really is not a issue, but even with this change all it does is addressing the BB side of in-balance it does nothing to the DD side.

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21 hours ago, 5turgeon said:

An 'angled' cruiser does not get routinely one shot, only the ones who make a mistake get one shot.

The fact remains that cruisers get one-shotted, DD’s very rarely.

21 hours ago, 5turgeon said:

A BB can routinely get 10k+ salvos on DD's at 12km, combined with the firepower of the DD spotting and a CA or 2 this is devastating to DD's.

Not sure about routinely.

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