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How does one get to targets as a torpedoboat?

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4 hours ago, icy_phoenix said:

What me and @sunlo2013 above suggested are from our DD gameplay experience. If we can do it, so should you. Cause we aren't even the best DD players..

I always consider myself noob DD, only T10 DD I have is harugumo. My DD stats really not worth mentioning.:cap_fainting:

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On 10/13/2018 at 1:05 AM, Mechfori said:

I play DD also, while I do agree that spotting is important to the team, I also held that if the guns do not come up enough to support , then I am not going to risk my life so they can get their shoot. Its reciprocal; yes, indeed, want spotting then support the DD but sadly I am not seeing much of this

Teamplay is just so very rare. These days when people tell me in chat "spot" or "cap" I have a look what they are talking about. There may be an opportunity I have overlooked. But often, they simply cause more damage themselves or they don't want to risk their skin and go in, so I just tell them to do it yourself.

But what I wanted to say with my post above is that if you do enough capping, spotting, defending caps and don't kill or even damage enemy ships, you can be top of XP earners. So your "WG does not reward" I don't think is quite correct. I believe when you do it right, there are plenty of rewards. 

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7 hours ago, PeterMoe1963 said:

Teamplay is just so very rare. These days when people tell me in chat "spot" or "cap" I have a look what they are talking about. There may be an opportunity I have overlooked. But often, they simply cause more damage themselves or they don't want to risk their skin and go in, so I just tell them to do it yourself.

But what I wanted to say with my post above is that if you do enough capping, spotting, defending caps and don't kill or even damage enemy ships, you can be top of XP earners. So your "WG does not reward" I don't think is quite correct. I believe when you do it right, there are plenty of rewards. 

 

the spotting part, yes, the capping part, well somewhat agree, but defending the capped ... seriously how many time you think a  single DD can defend against the like of force pusing forth wit Cruiser and DD intact ,and sometime wit BB in tow. A capping can be done solo, but usually defending a capped require team effort at best. Unfortunately this is also short in supply what I see these days is once an Area is capped, the guns just all ran off trying to find their own hunt, defending is no where on their agenda. I've been in so may games that I had to cap and cap again and keep crying, yelling for support to defend and guess what , even right next to the areas, the guns never bother ...

If WG suppose the DD to do all these then they should probably re balance the reward and scoring to reflect that. Right now it strongly biased towards damage dealing and this create the situation where its not rewarding for guns to go defense whether its domination or standard battle ( and that's why they do not do it ) and you are right about many guns just do not want to risk their skin, in fact that is also the one big issue. Getting into fight and brawl means getting hit and that is what most Asian server guns players actively avoid and consequently they adopt a backseat and sniping approach, even less support to the front and no less to DD and CL who must actually go up front to be able to perform, but now light force found themselves all alone up front. So its not hard to figure why many light force player now simply will ignore all guns request to go do that go do this. Like I stated , its reciprocal, even worse, even if DD and CL do their job to scout and spot there is no teamplay to reap the opportunity in many cases since the guns just would not come out to risk their skin and of course the light force who do position up front had not the firepower nor the HP to do so.

S if effort will be wasted then why risk going out to do it

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4 hours ago, Mechfori said:

 

the spotting part, yes, the capping part, well somewhat agree, but defending the capped ... seriously how many time you think a  single DD can defend against the like of force pusing forth wit Cruiser and DD intact ,and sometime wit BB in tow. A capping can be done solo, but usually defending a capped require team effort at best. Unfortunately this is also short in supply what I see these days is once an Area is capped, the guns just all ran off trying to find their own hunt, defending is no where on their agenda. I've been in so may games that I had to cap and cap again and keep crying, yelling for support to defend and guess what , even right next to the areas, the guns never bother ...

If WG suppose the DD to do all these then they should probably re balance the reward and scoring to reflect that. Right now it strongly biased towards damage dealing and this create the situation where its not rewarding for guns to go defense whether its domination or standard battle ( and that's why they do not do it ) and you are right about many guns just do not want to risk their skin, in fact that is also the one big issue. Getting into fight and brawl means getting hit and that is what most Asian server guns players actively avoid and consequently they adopt a backseat and sniping approach, even less support to the front and no less to DD and CL who must actually go up front to be able to perform, but now light force found themselves all alone up front. So its not hard to figure why many light force player now simply will ignore all guns request to go do that go do this. Like I stated , its reciprocal, even worse, even if DD and CL do their job to scout and spot there is no teamplay to reap the opportunity in many cases since the guns just would not come out to risk their skin and of course the light force who do position up front had not the firepower nor the HP to do so.

S if effort will be wasted then why risk going out to do it

Even in Asia server, I don't believe anyone will ask a single DD to defense a cap while multiple enemies pushing. You keep complaining that while you defending the cap no one around. Maybe people just move on the next objective? 

DD is the most maneuverable class, it is only yourself to decide when and where to position yourself and the term of engagement. Because if big ship focusing on other objective or behind island or angling against enemy. Their guns will not be able to face some direction. If you engage in wrong area or position then no one can help you even if their wanted to. For DD situation awareness and positioning is key to survival.

Since you have such strong opinion, I can't resist to look at your stats. Please I am not judging you win rate or anything like this. Just wanted to analysis why you came to this strong conclusion.

I only look at your recent 8 days stats. Mostly you play T5-T8 DD, so radar shouldn't be too big of a problem playing DD below T7. I found that your survival rate is quite low while you will not take those high risk advice from other ship class as said. Your torps hit % is extreme low, show that you are not very good at anticipate ship movement. Your kill/ dead ratio is extremely low, shows that you did not pick the right moment the engage and finish off targets. However, you perform relatively better in gun boats rather than torp boats. 

I think fundamentally, you may have problem anticipate development of a battle situation and also ships movement and intention.So that sometime you will  found yourself in the situation that was isolated and also you may sent torp in wrong position and wrong timing. 

For your own improve, I would suggest watch Youtuber flambass video. He is a very DD player and I learn my basic DD technique from him. If you speak Chinese I can recommend another streamer, who is even better and a dedicated DD player. 

Also, I suggest you to train your torp run with T4 ships, just to avoid more complicated battle situation. Just keep practice torp run. Why T4? their reload is quick and range is short, so you can practice more and force you to get closer. I recommend Shengyang as your training ship because it's torp is hard to dodge, and barely can stealth torp, make it good training ship for anticipate ship movement. Try to make completely stealth torp run in that ship, consider yourself fail if you didn't control distance correctly and detected by target while torp run. Shengyang also have great guns to protect yourself or finish of targets.

Sometime, my friend will sent replay to me and ask for advice. So, if you willing, you can also post replay here and ask question why certain situation happen to you repeatedly and any better way to approach certain situations. I am not very good at DD, but I am sure many strong DD players willing to help, if yourself willing to learn to begin with.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, sunlo2013 said:

Even in Asia server, I don't believe anyone will ask a single DD to defense a cap while multiple enemies pushing. You keep complaining that while you defending the cap no one around. Maybe people just move on the next objective? 

DD is the most maneuverable class, it is only yourself to decide when and where to position yourself and the term of engagement. Because if big ship focusing on other objective or behind island or angling against enemy. Their guns will not be able to face some direction. If you engage in wrong area or position then no one can help you even if their wanted to. For DD situation awareness and positioning is key to survival.

Since you have such strong opinion, I can't resist to look at your stats. Please I am not judging you win rate or anything like this. Just wanted to analysis why you came to this strong conclusion.

I only look at your recent 8 days stats. Mostly you play T5-T8 DD, so radar shouldn't be too big of a problem playing DD below T7. I found that your survival rate is quite low while you will not take those high risk advice from other ship class as said. Your torps hit % is extreme low, show that you are not very good at anticipate ship movement. Your kill/ dead ratio is extremely low, shows that you did not pick the right moment the engage and finish off targets. However, you perform relatively better in gun boats rather than torp boats. 

I think fundamentally, you may have problem anticipate development of a battle situation and also ships movement and intention.So that sometime you will  found yourself in the situation that was isolated and also you may sent torp in wrong position and wrong timing. 

For your own improve, I would suggest watch Youtuber flambass video. He is a very DD player and I learn my basic DD technique from him. If you speak Chinese I can recommend another streamer, who is even better and a dedicated DD player. 

Also, I suggest you to train your torp run with T4 ships, just to avoid more complicated battle situation. Just keep practice torp run. Why T4? their reload is quick and range is short, so you can practice more and force you to get closer. I recommend Shengyang as your training ship because it's torp is hard to dodge, and barely can stealth torp, make it good training ship for anticipate ship movement. Try to make completely stealth torp run in that ship, consider yourself fail if you didn't control distance correctly and detected by target while torp run. Shengyang also have great guns to protect yourself or finish of targets.

Sometime, my friend will sent replay to me and ask for advice. So, if you willing, you can also post replay here and ask question why certain situation happen to you repeatedly and any better way to approach certain situations. I am not very good at DD, but I am sure many strong DD players willing to help, if yourself willing to learn to begin with.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your advice ... you might be right about the part that I am not good at perceiving battle situation that I do not disagree, after all I am just a casual gamer. But still this does not take away the fact that I see day to day guns that do not support, do not help, do not push and generally do not defend .. that is what I see in game most of the time , might be its the style but if that's the case I think I will join them next time even though I will still be playing DD. Not going up front if guns are not helping seems sensible move to keep alive for now and tha might mean I will not be doing my par s a DD ; well so be it. I always know I am not the best of players and as only a casual gamer that I accept. What I do not really care for is a game that suppose to be team play but there is very little unfortunately ... that is where my strong  fellings are, not the part that I need to defend , or that I need to cap or to spot. If the situation come to be I live with it, but often than not the part is guns are around that can help, to push, to cap, to defend but they generally will avoid doing so because that would put them into situation where they will have to fight , to brawl, and most of all to get hit and ta which I see them actively avoiding, in fact any of such come up the first thing I seen most often is they rush for cver behind island where they cannot be shoot but equally they have no fire arc to fire upon enemy either and basically put themselves out of the fight. 

I do learn a lot on this thread, and I think I will be more cautious in my future games playing DD ( and might be other class too ) but the strong feeling towards guns in general on Asian Server, well that had nothing to do with playing DD though as DD Player it could be suffering the most. As I stated to the OP ... right now on Asian server expect no support , as a DD Player , guns just are not helping usually and I am not about to change that POV unless I see real change in game regarding guns as to how they would play, how they would support, and how they would or would not generally go about the task and not just about their own sitting way back and having their time dealing damage and not be in any  " situation " so to speak ...

Edited by Mechfori

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Well to be honest, my experience is quite different from you. I see good team work from random players occasionally. Not all the time, but I can tell you that player with 55% win rate usually already very capable of working as a team. 

You can't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Why your enemy team always team up push your position? but not your own team? there are team work involved, just not on your side. 

Have it ever come across your mind that may be you are the problem? 

DD is the most important class to make team work happen. Do you realize a lot of team work moves are initiated and facilitated by DD. Your mentality basically hugely reduced the chance other team member to work as a team. On the other hand, the thing that you desperately wanted is good team work to help you success. How ironic.....

Edited by sunlo2013

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9 hours ago, Mechfori said:

defending the capped

Well, I was really thinking of “defended” ribbons.

But also for XP, it can be quite rewarding for a DD to defending a cap. You know where enemy ships are / go = the cap. I can remember a few fun games with 2 or 3 enemy ships sitting in the cap, even standing still. So I would just go full speed, outside detection range, head for the cover of an island. Just before reaching cover, I fire a few salvos on the ships in the cap, resetting the timer. And of course, you can fire wave after wave of torps into the cap from stealth. Very entertaining when you do that for a while and hear “you sunk an enemy cruiser” when you are long gone, planning the next attack.

Should you alone take on half the enemy team in a gunfight? Probably not. But a single DD fighting a retreating battle, slowing down half the enemy team, that’s not all that rare. If the enemy ships see wave after wave of torps come from different directions, they will advance more careful = slower. However, unless your torps hit, there is no XP to reward this directly.
 

9 hours ago, Mechfori said:

Right now it strongly biased towards damage dealing

What I tried to say is that you can be top XP earner without doing any damage.

I guess it can be frustrating to see a lazy BB can sit at the back and consistently do damage by shooting from range. A DD would have to be smart and work hard to make more XP than this BB.

That is why I play a lot of operations these days, Random/Ranked are just too frustrating for various reasons.

If you ask me, what should be changed is that radar goes through islands. That is one of my biggest griefs with a game. How can a Cleveland light up a DD in a cap when she sits on the opposite side of an island? That’s just now how radar works.

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17 hours ago, PeterMoe1963 said:

Teamplay is just so very rare. These days when people tell me in chat "spot" or "cap" I have a look what they are talking about. There may be an opportunity I have overlooked. But often, they simply cause more damage themselves or they don't want to risk their skin and go in, so I just tell them to do it yourself.

Team play in the classic sense is rare, but at the same time you can't win without effective team play.  The important thing is to try and work with what your team is doing as best you can, even if it isn't an ideal situation.

I always try and positively encourage people to pursue a reasonable course of action, either by typing in chat, or using chat commands to make the suggestion if that doesn't work.  Don't forget there will be plenty of people who may not understand what you're saying, or maybe even have missed a comment in chat.  A good combination of chat commands, like pinging at a ship 'request support', then 'cap A' or whatever can give people a basic idea of what you're trying to get across.

Even then, you may not actually know a good course of action to recommend, or your team mates may be ignoring suggestions entirely, but despite that, it's up to you to work with your team as best you can.  That basically means controlling your positioning so that you can support them and they can support you.  If you pursue what would be a good course of action, but do it alone, then it's usually a bad idea rather than helping your team with their sub-optimal course of action.

Once again, positioning is key here, you need to position in a way that you and your team are supporting each other, while pushing that position to encourage your team to do what you think is best.  So if I'm in a BB and I think my team is hanging back a bit, I'll push up to a more aggressive position to encourage my team to push up too.  That doesn't mean yolo charge, it just means be closer to your DD's and ahead of your BB's, which will often pull your BB's up and pressure the other team back, and that means your DD's are more likely to survive, theirs are more likely to die, and your team is more likely to win.

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7 hours ago, Mechfori said:

Thanks for your advice ... you might be right about the part that I am not good at perceiving battle situation that I do not disagree, after all I am just a casual gamer. But still this does not take away the fact that I see day to day guns that do not support, do not help, do not push and generally do not defend .. that is what I see in game most of the time , might be its the style but if that's the case I think I will join them next time even though I will still be playing DD. Not going up front if guns are not helping seems sensible move to keep alive for now and tha might mean I will not be doing my par s a DD ; well so be it. I always know I am not the best of players and as only a casual gamer that I accept. What I do not really care for is a game that suppose to be team play but there is very little unfortunately ... that is where my strong  fellings are, not the part that I need to defend , or that I need to cap or to spot. If the situation come to be I live with it, but often than not the part is guns are around that can help, to push, to cap, to defend but they generally will avoid doing so because that would put them into situation where they will have to fight , to brawl, and most of all to get hit and ta which I see them actively avoiding, in fact any of such come up the first thing I seen most often is they rush for cver behind island where they cannot be shoot but equally they have no fire arc to fire upon enemy either and basically put themselves out of the fight. 

I do learn a lot on this thread, and I think I will be more cautious in my future games playing DD ( and might be other class too ) but the strong feeling towards guns in general on Asian Server, well that had nothing to do with playing DD though as DD Player it could be suffering the most. As I stated to the OP ... right now on Asian server expect no support , as a DD Player , guns just are not helping usually and I am not about to change that POV unless I see real change in game regarding guns as to how they would play, how they would support, and how they would or would not generally go about the task and not just about their own sitting way back and having their time dealing damage and not be in any  " situation " so to speak ...

Well, what you said about bigger guns, we do not deny that. Bigger guns are by nature a bit passive. But it happens on both sides. Also, having played in all 3 servers for quite some time, I can tell you that, it is no different for NA and EU (if you don't take my word, you are welcome to try yourself, or just watch how easy games are for those streamers). If you think SEA players are playing it wrong, you will roll on the floor laughing what NA and EU players in general do every day.

About your own skill, I do not think "so be it" attitude is helping here. As I mentioned before, I checked your performance on DDs earlier, (of course for providing constructive criticism). I don't know how you play, some replays would be easy to analyze, but I do believe you are playing DDs incorrectly. And that's why you are blaming your teammates. Team does not play for you, you play WITH the team. That's the main point we and a few others above are trying to convey. You push the flank that your team is pushing, you DO NOT pick a random flank and expect your team to follow. Team NEVER follow one ship. If there are fellow DDs with you, they might be encouraged to follow.

I also said before, DDs are the most independent class in the game, unless there is a CV involved, a DD can do wonder on his own. I think if you focus on improving your own game instead of constantly looking over the shoulder to see what the team is doing, you will start getting better games, and as you get better and better, your opinion will start to change. What you think about the game and how it should be are based on your current skill levels. And as you yourself realized, you might not be the best player, this means, your opinion can very well be flawed, biased or even impractical.

3 Things are needed for good DD plays, 1. Map awareness, 2. Rules of engagement and concealment, 3. Team support. Yes, team comes last. As someone told me when I was a noob in the game, improvement starts with yourself.

Good luck mate.

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4 hours ago, Moggytwo said:

Team play in the classic sense is rare, but at the same time you can't win without effective team play.  The important thing is to try and work with what your team is doing as best you can, even if it isn't an ideal situation.

1

Yes, of course, everything you say is correct.

Again, if someone says "cap B" or whatever, I will look at B and assess the situation. If it can be done, I'm happy for the hint, will even say "thank you" and will go for it. An extra cap may well decide the match. However, if I think that was an unreasonable request, I will reply "go yourself".

I'm not sure why it is acceptable to send DDs into their certain death, but typing "go yourself" isn't?

I will play with the team, playing against my own team would be dumb. Not that it is uncommon to see players play against their own team, but I'm trying to avoid that.

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26 minutes ago, icy_phoenix said:

As someone told me when I was a noob in the game, improvement starts with yourself.

That's excellent advice, not only for computer games.

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9 hours ago, sunlo2013 said:

I think fundamentally, you may have problem anticipate development of a battle situation and also ships movement and intention.So that sometime you will  found yourself in the situation that was isolated and also you may sent torp in wrong position and wrong timing.

This is a common issue, and is an insightful point.  I think being able to read the combat situation so that you can work out what is happening far enough in advance to position correctly is actually one of the most difficult skills in the game.  You see it quite often where people are very slow to either advance or retreat and often end up being killed in a situation where they could have easily got away while also delaying the enemies offense.

Awareness is key here - constantly checking the minimap and actively trying to predict what you think the enemy team will do is where to start if someone struggles with this skill.  You'll soon work out if you were right or not, and you'll learn the patterns that tend to happen, and that will mean you'll know in advance what is likely to happen and can move your ship to the most effective position.

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Let me clarify, I do not blame the team  what I mean is I had a rather negative impression of all the guns that simply sit back, relax and enjoy the show; and occasionally when situation present, they pop a shoot or 2 provided they cannot get shoot at ... and that does not limit to BB, I've seen cruiser and even gunboat DD doing that. And I thank you all for the advice. As a DD Player I have always try to covey my action to the team , say at the start of game I would ask which area they want me to go ( in Domination ) or if they want me to go ahead or tag along ( standard battle ) , if I had to exit an area or going to I tell them too on the chat but sadly communication seems to be a one way radio most of the time and I do not even know if they actually check that. And I certainly do not think these are SEA server alone. And I am not basing my impression only on areas or flanks I am around I see it as a general game play behavior seen in game.

I do agree the Radar ability to penetrate landmass is simply OP and UN-realistic and unfair advantage given to Radar equipped ships. I think just like concealment ( eyeball ) the detection range of different class should also differ, and I believe the reward and score for actually able to spot an enemy should scale to the class also ( just as destroying enemy ships ) but the other way round with spotting enemy DD rewarded most and BB / CV least. Radar ship should also reveal itself to the enemy whenever they activate the Radar.

 

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