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Otago_F111

Unique Commanders

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So I got myself the 2 British and one US commander last week and was wondering what the go is with them.

E.g John Doe here has 2 small "+" in the commander screen above these two items.

Does this mean that if I don't use the  "+", that they have Expert Marksman and Expert loader by default?

 

captain.JPG.a2e5b365cdfaed4e56b0e48d91eba0f9.JPG

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Thanks Ralph, then not much use on a US destroyer as I don't need to spend 3 points there. Been smashing the Dunkirk scenario for a week to get this guy to 17 so far, and I don't really need him yet... oh well he will come in handy at some stage.

A Cruiser or BB that has really slow turret rotation and needs to swap shells often?

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20 minutes ago, Otago_F111 said:

Thanks Ralph, then not much use on a US destroyer as I don't need to spend 3 points there. Been smashing the Dunkirk scenario for a week to get this guy to 17 so far, and I don't really need him yet... oh well he will come in handy at some stage.

A Cruiser or BB that has really slow turret rotation and needs to swap shells often?

Yeah, Often the commanders will have skills appropriate to at least one type of ship In their nation. I’m not that familiar with US BBs, but WoWS wiki suggest that EM and EL are good skills for Montana. So the captain would work well with Montana. Less well with high tier US cruisers, which have fairly rapid loading and turning anyway.

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34 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

Yeah, Often the commanders will have skills appropriate to at least one type of ship In their nation. I’m not that familiar with US BBs, but WoWS wiki suggest that EM and EL are good skills for Montana. So the captain would work well with Montana. Less well with high tier US cruisers, which have fairly rapid loading and turning anyway.

Excellent skills for DM captain.

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thanks @Gryrus_Triss  Havent gotten into BB yet, but maybe I could start with the Texas which would allow me to easily move him up :cap_like:

At least the British brothers are good for Cruisers, and maybe worth a try on the DD's Jervis, Cossack and lightning. JOAT, SSE, EM? 

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Basically, as with all the other unique commanders, you need to assign them to proper class (or even proper ships) to get the most out of them for their buffed skills. Really some min-maxing challenges.

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1 hour ago, Otago_F111 said:

awesome. WOWS wiki doesn't show this guy, and is Missouri ever likely to come back?

Don't think Misso will come back. She earns credit so much it ate into WG's profitability, so her number must be limited. She just had to go.

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2 hours ago, Otago_F111 said:

awesome. WOWS wiki doesn't show this guy, and is Missouri ever likely to come back?

It had a real cute animation of Casey Ryback coming on deck from various parts of the ship while it was in port and doing some martial arts exercises too - pretty neat stuff, too bad we're reduced to the very bland John Doe now.

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2 hours ago, Otago_F111 said:

awesome. WOWS wiki doesn't show this guy, and is Missouri ever likely to come back?

Nope. Not coming back. I thin kit is in teh same bucket as teh Belfast and Kutuzov. Although it wouldn't surprise me if they pull a world of tanks move and offer them at some point for 100USD each. And thank God Seagal is gone, his voice overs sounded like a drunk man talking down a 1930's telephone. After taking 3 valium.

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20 minutes ago, j0e90 said:

Nope. Not coming back. I thin kit is in teh same bucket as teh Belfast and Kutuzov. Although it wouldn't surprise me if they pull a world of tanks move and offer them at some point for 100USD each. And thank God Seagal is gone, his voice overs sounded like a drunk man talking down a 1930's telephone. After taking 3 valium.

*Yawn*

"yeah, so... uhm… we're on....."

*yawn*

"...fire... zzzzzzz"

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2 hours ago, j0e90 said:

Nope. Not coming back. I thin kit is in teh same bucket as teh Belfast and Kutuzov.

Sort of.  Belfast and Kutuzov were pulled because they were OP (although Belfast isn't really anymore following the smoke fire changes).  Missouri was pulled mainly because of it's credit earning potential stuffing up their economy.  This is why the Musashi, Kronk have lower credit earnings.

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4 minutes ago, icy_phoenix said:

LOL WHAT !!!???

looks like he is trying to get some hopes up for belfast coming back. LMAO

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8 hours ago, icy_phoenix said:

LOL WHAT !!!???

Well they're a lot easier to spot with the smoke fire changes, and even before the changes I quite liked having a Belfast on the opposite team.  As a DD main they are very easy to play around, you can torp them easily, and when they have hydro up your torps can push them out of their smoke for your team mates to whack.  They don't open water much since they are so fragile, and their reload is quite long compared to radar duration. When I take my BB's out I absolutely love having them on the other team since they are so much fun to blap in smoke, and they don't have a heal or torps so they are easy to push if they don't have enough friends.

Fiji is a better ship all around imo.

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6 hours ago, Moggytwo said:

Fiji is a better ship all around imo

You do know that the belfast's smoke spotting range is extremely small, way better than Fiji. Smoke nerf has no impact on Belfast. It's exactly as op as it was before.

Your statement is true about Kutuzov, but severely wrong about Belfast.

Yeah I also killed a few belfasts here and there, doesn't make her not op.

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3 hours ago, icy_phoenix said:

You do know that the belfast's smoke spotting range is extremely small, way better than Fiji. Smoke nerf has no impact on Belfast. It's exactly as op as it was before.

Your statement is true about Kutuzov, but severely wrong about Belfast.

Yeah I also killed a few belfasts here and there, doesn't make her not op.

Belfast's smoke firing range is 5.3km, Fiji's is 5.4km.  That's pretty much the same.

Belfast's win rate is very good, but it's not amazing.  In terms of ships T6 and up that have better win rate that are still readily and widely available, Kronshtadt, Shino, Chung Mu, Arizona, T-61, Kidd, Gadjah Mada, even the Huanghe (the Huanghe, I mean just wow!), all have better win rates than the Belfast.  There's also another nine within a single percentage point of Belfast.  None of these ships are banned for being OP.  There's five tech tree ships in that range that aren't even protected from nerfs by virtue of being premium, but they are so fine they don't need a rebalance.  Meanwhile Belfast is OP apparently...

I think Belfast just has the perception of being OP without actually the stats to back it up.  It's supposed to be OP because of 8.5km radar with 8.7km stealth and the ability to use smoke and radar at the same time.  This is clearly something that would only be OP against DD's, but any semi-competent DD player is never going to be caught by a Belfast, it is one of the easiest radar ships to avoid.  What it does prey on is players who are just moving up through the mid-tier DD's for the first time and aren't aware of radar and how to play around it.  These players are generally going to struggle to be successful anyway.

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7 hours ago, Moggytwo said:

Belfast's smoke firing range is 5.3km, Fiji's is 5.4km.  That's pretty much the same.

Belfast's win rate is very good, but it's not amazing.  In terms of ships T6 and up that have better win rate that are still readily and widely available, Kronshtadt, Shino, Chung Mu, Arizona, T-61, Kidd, Gadjah Mada, even the Huanghe (the Huanghe, I mean just wow!), all have better win rates than the Belfast.  There's also another nine within a single percentage point of Belfast.  None of these ships are banned for being OP.  There's five tech tree ships in that range that aren't even protected from nerfs by virtue of being premium, but they are so fine they don't need a rebalance.  Meanwhile Belfast is OP apparently...

I think Belfast just has the perception of being OP without actually the stats to back it up.  It's supposed to be OP because of 8.5km radar with 8.7km stealth and the ability to use smoke and radar at the same time.  This is clearly something that would only be OP against DD's, but any semi-competent DD player is never going to be caught by a Belfast, it is one of the easiest radar ships to avoid.  What it does prey on is players who are just moving up through the mid-tier DD's for the first time and aren't aware of radar and how to play around it.  These players are generally going to struggle to be successful anyway.

I don't know what your source is but you are looking at wrong places.

This is what I see when I filter out people who don't know anything about wows.

5bb8f2f6a7c03_belfast_50.thumb.JPG.2a5d1c713ab68eb140d5cc752a407aab.JPG

 

If these numbers, right next to Fiji, does not seem OP to you, then you are dreaming. Even if I don't filter out bottom 50%, Belfast is still at 2nd place and significantly above Fiji. That is astonishing stat considering the fact that more than half of the player base probably bought the ship already.

The other ships you have mentioned here, please keep in mind that, they are fairly new ships and mostly competent players reach them first. While Belfast has almost a millions of total battles. I would not compare the stats of a new ship with something that has millions of plays and a premium at the same time so any bot with money has access to it.

WG stats are way more precise than what you can see, when they removed that ship, that already says something went wrong about the ship in data department. I can assure you about that. They are pretty lazy to take action unless something drastic happens.

Also I don't know why you think Belfast cannot catch any competent DDs, I see my clan mates sometimes get caught by it. You are just talking from anecdotal experience (quite easy for good players to get carried away) and finding biased data that suits your theory. Ships are first balanced by their abilities, what a ship can do and what it cant. A ship is broken when there is a possibility to do a lot more than her counterparts. You get Hydro, UK Smoke, HE with very high RoF (+IFHE), UK handling, RADAR, best concealment with T8 slot.... An Edinburgh with HE for torps/heal at one tier lower. Yah mate, why would this be OP, right. If belfast is not OP, there is no OP ship in the game. We just need to git gud to know how you counter it.

Edited by icy_phoenix

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9 hours ago, icy_phoenix said:
Spoiler

I don't know what your source is but you are looking at wrong places.

This is what I see when I filter out people who don't know anything about wows.

5bb8f2f6a7c03_belfast_50.thumb.JPG.2a5d1c713ab68eb140d5cc752a407aab.JPG

 

If these numbers, right next to Fiji, does not seem OP to you, then you are dreaming. Even if I don't filter out bottom 50%, Belfast is still at 2nd place and significantly above Fiji. That is astonishing stat considering the fact that more than half of the player base probably bought the ship already.

The other ships you have mentioned here, please keep in mind that, they are fairly new ships and mostly competent players reach them first. While Belfast has almost a millions of total battles. I would not compare the stats of a new ship with something that has millions of plays and a premium at the same time so any bot with money has access to it.

WG stats are way more precise than what you can see, when they removed that ship, that already says something went wrong about the ship in data department. I can assure you about that. They are pretty lazy to take action unless something drastic happens.

Also I don't know why you think Belfast cannot catch any competent DDs, I see my clan mates sometimes get caught by it. You are just talking from anecdotal experience (quite easy for good players to get carried away) and finding biased data that suits your theory. Ships are first balanced by their abilities, what a ship can do and what it cant. A ship is broken when there is a possibility to do a lot more than her counterparts. You get Hydro, UK Smoke, HE with very high RoF (+IFHE), UK handling, RADAR, best concealment with T8 slot.... An Edinburgh with HE for torps/heal at one tier lower. Yah mate, why would this be OP, right. If belfast is not OP, there is no OP ship in the game. We just need to git gud to know how you counter it.

Well I was comparing it to all ships T6 and above, then removing the ones that are no longer available or only available to a specific part of the population.  You're comparing it to T7 cruisers only, and taking the top 50% doesn't actually illustrate anything since the player skill and experience demographics of Fiji and Belfast are completely different.  My point was there are plenty of ships with the same or better win rate that are considered strong but not OP, but Belfast is continually held up as one of the most OP ships in the game.

Also, Belfast's win rate is artificially higher than it should be compared to tech tree ships, since it has not been available for nearly a year.  This means that the players playing it are all very experienced (they may have varying skill, but they will definitely have experience).  Inexperienced players in the tech tree ships will bring the win rate down markedly.  Tech tree ships like Gadjah Mada and Chung Mu still beat it on win rate despite that, and plenty of others are not far behind.

As for Belfast's catching competent DD's, I didn't say it wasn't possible - it has the tools available, but a competent DD player will know the tools and know what to do to not be caught out and to counter the Belfast.  Having said that, we all make mistakes, and I'm sure we've all been killed by Belfast's before - I know I have.  It wasn't the Belfast being OP though, it was my stupid mistake.  I've been killed by plenty of objectively weak ships as well.

I certainly think the Belfast is strong, but I just don't think it's OP, and once again this is coming from someone who mainly plays what a Belfast considers food.  You say the tools make it OP, but I honestly don't think smoke/radar/hydro/HE is OP in that ship while the detection is more than the radar range, and the radar range is only 8.5km (it often can't position to radar a whole cap).  It is so incredibly fragile and can't heal, and is a favourite target for any BB captain, and it has low alpha without torps to defend itself against rushes, and I think that adequately balances out its strengths. 

Lastly I'd just like to point out that your own Fiji stats are superb, and your win rate in Fiji (81%) is over 10% higher than in Belfast!  I think this wouldn't be unusual among good players, since as I've stated I think Fiji is a better ship.

In the end, I don't mind that we disagree on it, your opinion is perfectly valid - I just think you're wrong!  :Smile_Default:

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2 hours ago, Moggytwo said:

Lastly I'd just like to point out that your own Fiji stats are superb, and your win rate in Fiji (81%) is over 10% higher than in Belfast!  I think this wouldn't be unusual among good players, since as I've stated I think Fiji is a better ship.

Nah, that's just cause of div padding, I'm not that skilled on my own. And my Belfast stats are a bit poor cause I don't have IFHE, so do not deal much damage. As you mentioned good players on Fiji, that's exactly what top 50% is showing, a straight +4% in winrate. We do not really disagree on it, it's just we measure ships on a different scale or with different offset, for example, what you consider OK->Strong is what I consider Strong->OP. So, I'd like to ask you at this point, what ship do you think might be OP in wows.

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1 hour ago, icy_phoenix said:

So, I'd like to ask you at this point, what ship do you think might be OP in wows.

Well that's difficult.  I think you can exclude CV's, since they are fundamentally unbalanced as a class, and they are about to remove them and replace them with another class of the same name.  It's also hard to quantify the ships that are only available to certain groups - Flint, Black, and Stalingrad.  For these I think Flint is fine on it's own.  Stalingrad is reasonably balanced overall but bad for the game (in a similar manner to Conqueror which is balanced but bad for the game) due to it's peculiar AP stats making it by far the most effective BB AP pen to DD ship in the game.  Black I have played a bit and find it hard to be objective about, but I think the torp package is absurdly good (highest torps per minute in the game I believe), and the radar pushes it into the OP range.  I don't know what enemy DD's are supposed to do when they have to get off detection after being spotted by a Black, they just have to hope they survive the 24s.  A clan mate and I take out a Kitakaze/Black div a bit and that basically feels like cheating.

Apart from Black I would say Kronshtadt is OP - it's ability to get aggressive early, radar and dominate with BB AP and really dominant positioning, then survive and get out again having swung the match well in their teams favour at the most important point of the match is just far too good.  As well as this, it's ability to shut off access throughout the battle to the most important parts of the map by taking it's 11.7km radar range into positions that other cruisers with that range radar cannot get to without dying gives your team the positioning advantage (and that is what wins games).  Combine that with extremely effective AP on a short reload and you have an OP package - the ship's stats back this up.

Further down the tiers, the Giulio Cesare is definitely OP - it's a good tier 6 ship at tier 5.  The small size, the maneuverability, the incredible guns form a package that is way too good.  The only thing that keeps it slightly in check is T5 MM.

Then I'd also go with the Orion.  It's way too easy to play, has great AA at a tier where CV's are everywhere, it has firing angles that do not belong on a T4 BB, and at that tier you can consistently HE citadel all the cruisers while also wrecking DD's and BB's.  It's utterly dominant, absurdly so, and the only thing keeping it slightly in check is that so many brand new players have it.  Looking at it's win rate vs the supposed most OP T4, the Nikolai I, Orion has a 54.9% win rate vs a 61.5% win rate for Nikolai.  No contest right?  Well have a look at say the top 20 players in each ship - Nikolai top 20 averages about 89%, but the Orion top 20 averages 95%!  This trend continues if you look at the whole top 100.  The best players are far more dominant in Orion than Nikolai.

There are a few that are knocking on the door behind that, but those are the only ships I personally consider genuinely OP.

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