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mr_glitchy_R

Do you think that WoWS is not friendly to newcomers?

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Agree wholeheartedly with Zoup here.

I have said this time and time again. WoWs (and also WoT) does a piss poor job at explaining the game mechanics to new players. Nowhere is it stated in-game what your HE penetration is, what the different damage types are, what is Radar, etc. Heck, players can't even find what consumables a ship can use unless they have one themselves. If it is a Premium ship that is not in the tech tree, then they have no way of knowing its capabilities.

WoWs really needs an in-game database, or at very least links to the WoWs wiki and the How It Works series of videos. To even be decent in this game, new players would need to go to third party sites to learn more. This shouldn't be the case.  The game should teach all that is needed for new players to become decent; 3rd party sites is where they go should they wish to become good.

In-game tutorials are important here, because most humans learn better by doing, rather than just passively reading and listening. The question is whether the tutorials should be mandatory. My suggestion would be to have both - there would be  simple, mandatory tutorials but also more advanced, challenging optional tutorials too. The advanced tutorials can give one-time rewards to those that complete them. Maybe a few doubloons here, some Premium time there, that sort of thing. This would encourage players to try and actually put into practice what they have learnt.

Now some people may not see a point to all this, but the truth is the poor quality of new players is not healthy for the game. Newbies will get sealclubbed by the more experienced players and get frustrated and quit the game, thus leading to player churn. And for a niche game like WoWs, player churn is something that the game definitely cannot afford. Either that or they just fail their way to the high tiers without ever learning their mistakes, and end up frustrating the veteran players on their team. I myself am quite sick of PvP because of the poor quality of players in the past few months. Blowouts and one-sided stomps are not fun for either side. At this moment WoWs is becoming more like a chore than a fun game. Thank goodness Scenarios are a thing.

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[CLAY]
Alpha Tester
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If we could have a decent size clan limit then maybe we might take on some 'new' players and even give them some help. But there is no room for training or helping new players in a clan with current small numbers limiting us.

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Super Tester
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This game isn't really that hard to get the basics right, most players usually figure them out on their own. And absolute new comers cannot meet experienced players, they are locked inside protected MM which is usually filled with bots even in random battles. New players get plenty of time to experiment before they actually meet the big boys, and if someone is enthusiastic enough, there are a lot of material for him to dig around.

If you think this game is hard for beginners to get, look at Dota2. Wows complexity is tiny compared to the Dota2 which is basically Mount Everest. Do you see much complain about that? No. Cause online games are generally meant for people who can dig on their own.

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Beta Tester
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It's a good question. I just tried to get a friend of mine into the game. I've played many online games with him of different types and complexities and he is no fool.

I started trying to tell him about where and when to fire AP or HE, watch the map, don't overextend, don't be the closest ship to the enemy if you are a cruiser by yourself, don't show your side to the enemy even if it gets more of your guns on target, watch what the rest of the team is doing, turn into torpedoes but away from bombers... and, well, I think it just overwhelmed him - and they are barely the basics.

I felt like I wanted to say half a dozen things all at the same time with the same priority.

"Friendly"? Well I don't know. I'm not sure that I think everyone should expect to encounter warm fuzzies in everything they do, online or not... but I don't think that's exactly what the OP was talking about.

I got reported once on Soloman Islands because I fired some speccy torps around a corner from my Kamikaze and devo striked an unseen enemy - he ranted for ages about how I couldn't see him so I must have been hacking...

It entertained me and learning things like this (the hard way because it was done to me) make me enjoy the game more - ie having adapted to this myself (even though I will still get torped while I stupidly hide in my own smoke from time to time).

I don't think things should be handed to people on a platter all the time and learning things the hard way can eventually be entertaining and rewarding and perhaps even more valuable BECAUSE you had to sort it yourself.

But my experience with trying to get a friend to play with me was a little daunting.

So yeah - it's a good question.

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[SIF]
Super Tester
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Another game I play has been described as a mile wide and an inch deep in regards to its gameplay and mechanics

This game is an inch wide and a mile deep.     Knowing all aspects of the game is hard but can be done if a player levels slowly and do their research and learn what to do.  Most cant resist the temptation to push quickly the high tiers or buy a shiny T8 boot and they suffer heavily for it.  Its not the games fault.  Its player mentality.

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Tbh, I believe wows is fine to new comers as it still provides a learning curve of sorts that isn't entirely brutal. Though I do agree, it could be much better if systematic exposure can be added on step by step basis for the new features that are being added. For example, I still sometimes forget where the collections are as I keep clicking on Campaigns subconsciously instead. And I had a really hard time trying to figure out where my Inventory tab was or how do I change my port back when I returned from my hiatus. So yea, some UI elements do feel intimidating if you are new or if haven't been around for a while.

That being said, my biggest gripe is how PVP centric this game really is. Back when WG finally introduced Operations mode, I jumped for joy as I belived that WG finally decided to give an alternate route to grinding the game out to its max tier. Yet, I was thoroughly dissapointed. Though they introduced various of them, they locked operations behind a weekly limitation which could only be bypassed by have a full division which pretty much knocked out the solo players. Not to mention, tier locked and to top it off, they added a cool down period so people couldn't continue playing unless they paid for it. Basically, it became a distraction tool rather than an alternate grinding route. And in the end, the bots are so predictable that it becomes old really fast essentially killing most allure out of it.

TL;DR, I wish WG actually took the PVE element seriously and make a story driven campaign that can evolve into something equivalent to raids. I don't want the disaster of Armoured Warfare but sure as hell I'm kinda sick of being put into a monotony of 15vs15 over and over again and this is just leading me to go on a break once again.

 

Edited by LonerPrime

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[LBAS]
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Let's put it this way.

This game has protected MM for new comers to prevent seal clubbers (of course it can't stop certain players).

 

1 example here:

her sister WoT had improved its tutorial for their new players when they hit 1.0, but then has the skill of the player base improved? Go discover and figure.

Maybe you suggest force them to play tutorial for the first login, but then how many of them will be able to apply them to real battle? Again go discover and figure.

 

Therefore,

People who only interest on finding things and shoot with the least risk, only to burn their free time aren't necessarily sought for improvement.

But then if they find the game interesting, and worth the investment, then they will want to improve - there are more than enough material for them to research over the internet.

Does WG needs to cater more for newcomers? Maybe, but it will never be their first few priorities.

 

Edited by spixys

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Super Tester
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Just want to point out one thing here though, if you are bringing in a friend into the game, try not to div up with him too much, guide him any way you can, but if you div with him, he will be out of protected MM environment for div'd up matches. Might not be a pleasant experience for him.

Coop is also a good place to start. As Ralph said, resisting the temptation to get to the iconic and imaginary high tier ships is really hard. I personally started the game with a Kutuzov, which was my biggest mistake in the game.... and Its not easy to instantly learn from it, since I did the same mistake with Blyskawica and Sims again. But if someone is willing to get better and invest time to learn, better he will get.

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8 hours ago, icy_phoenix said:

If you think this game is hard for beginners to get, look at Dota2. Wows complexity is tiny compared to the Dota2 which is basically Mount Everest. Do you see much complain about that? No. Cause online games are generally meant for people who can dig on their own.

Difference between Dota2 and WoWs is Dota2 doesn't have a lot of hidden mechanics. The skills and items have very good tooltips which say everything a player needs to know about them. Again, how does a new WoWs player know what their HE pen is? Do they know that fire and flooding are 100% healable with repair party? Hell, they probably don't even know that strafing and manual drops exist for CVs tier 6 and up unless they stop playing and look it up on third party websites.

Also notice how Starcraft2 and Dota2 have in-game libraries and databases which players can access. If Dota2 were to follow WoWs, half the hero library will be missing because the player never played that hero before. Dota2 even has try mode for its heroes, which is something WoWs sorely lacks.

Besides, WoWs and Dota2 are very different animals. Dota2 has always been designed as a competitive game from the start, so those playing should know what they are signing up for. It is a hardcore game and it doesn't try to hide itself from that fact. WoWs on the other hand has been targeted mostly towards naval history enthusiasts and/or older, casual gamers with money to spend. They come in expecting a simple game involving ships and instead get a complex game. I mean, just take a look at the difference between gameplay in Tier 1 and Tier 10.

2 hours ago, spixys said:

People who only interest on finding things and shoot with the least risk, only to burn their free time aren't necessarily sought for improvement.

But then if they find the game interesting, and worth the investment, then they will want to improve - there are more than enough material for them to research over the internet.

That's why I suggested optional, but challenging tutorials that give one-time rewards. Challenging enough that players will have to put into practice what they learnt in order to succeed, with good enough rewards that people will actually want to try them instead of just rushing into PvP. If you can't bring the horse to water, then you bring the water to the horse. 

Because like it or not, WoWs is having a problem with player retention and poor player quality right now. WG can either just stuff their ears with their fingers and ignore the problems, or they could try and do something about it. They have done good so far with the How It Works video series, but those should have been done last year imo.

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15 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

Difference between Dota2 and WoWs is Dota2 doesn't have a lot of hidden mechanics. The skills and items have very good tooltips which say everything a player needs to know about them. Again, how does a new WoWs player know what their HE pen is? Do they know that fire and flooding are 100% healable with repair party? Hell, they probably don't even know that strafing and manual drops exist for CVs tier 6 and up unless they stop playing and look it up on third party websites.

 

The things you mentioned here, I still do not know myself. Like HE pen and stuff. And I am absolutely sure these have nothing to do with how you play the game. Human mind has this insane capability called learning from experience. I know what ship I can penetrate with what shell but I do not know their actual value, and knowing that isn't necessary at all, infact id say, a huge burden, full of useless information.

About dota (after playing for 7 years), you actually need to remember all the spells of all the heroes with their cool down and ...................................... 25 other stuffs. That my friend is what we call learning curve. In wows, the actual learning curve lies in map tactics and engagement discipline, just like most arcade games. Those hidden mechanics you mentioned aren't really that important, at least not so in my opinion.

Watch Flambass stream, he thought Mogami had 152mm, he doesn't even know many stuff about the game. He is a top class player.

Ofcourse game ins't easy for new players, but the "basics" arent hard at all.

Edited by icy_phoenix

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11 hours ago, icy_phoenix said:

And absolute new comers cannot meet experienced players, they are locked inside protected MM

Since when protected MM is already in the game?

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11 hours ago, icy_phoenix said:

This game isn't really that hard to get the basics right, most players usually figure them out on their own. And absolute new comers cannot meet experienced players, they are locked inside protected MM which is usually filled with bots even in random battles. New players get plenty of time to experiment before they actually meet the big boys.

Half I cant agree. Half I can agree. New players until they played like 20+ random battles, his MM will be like, his team all bots, enemy team also all bots except 1 human as a Mirror MM. Basically its a Bot Vs Bot Match but random battle benefits.

But the game basics are hard. it took me months, and after that thanks to each nations own mechanic I had to start completing a course of "watch all Ichase and Flamuu videos" that I can even write a Book on it. I kinda support WG for releasing "How it works" series on youtube.

Heres the Comparision. Game only tells you that AP is good against Armored Ships. but game never told you which thickness of armor you can pen, overpen. Resulting players shooting whatever they likes. Even yesterday I saw a Gnevy shooting AP at bow on Shiratsuyu. That player only got to knew that Russia dd is gunboat type. but with that in mind he thought his guns are good and he can do anything. To avoid this, WG needs to add the penetration information where you Hover your mouse to shell icon and see the Pen limits information. 

World of TANKS has the best guide, where your Aim circle turns red telling that your shell cant penetrate that armored area of exactly where youre aiming. You also see entire information of the shell in garage. Warships needs same guidance too. Also you are forced to play 5 battles with Different Tutorials and strategy. 

Reading these, Wargaming may ask, "We are working hard on many tutorials and physics guidance videos, explaining everything" But, my question is, does the player know this? 99% of gaming industry never provided tutorials in their own channels. So how about after tutorial you suggest them from the game to "subscribe to World of warships youtube channel for Explained guide" ?

Edited by Labeat
Typos

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14 minutes ago, Anger_Lehner said:

Well you have protected MM till T4 in the game.

What? In the past I didn't got such thing

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2 minutes ago, mr_glitchy_R said:

What? In the past I didn't got such thing

it was implemented around last year, not so far ago

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Just now, Anger_Lehner said:

You never face T6 in T4 unless your fail divving. 

I believe he is talking about Bots in random battle. T6 not coming to T4 matches was already here decades ago.

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10 minutes ago, mr_glitchy_R said:

What? In the past I didn't got such thing

Heres some screenshot I found from deep inside screenshots folder. Look at the chat Closer. The names with : in both sides, are not human. but its in random battles :)

 

10 minutes ago, Anger_Lehner said:

You never face T6 in T4 unless your fail divving. 

Protected about Bots for Newbies in random battles. Heres the picture.

shot-18.07.10_23.57.24-0212.jpg

shot-18.07.11_00.03.31-0127.jpg

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Super Tester
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31 minutes ago, Anger_Lehner said:

Well you have protected MM till T4 in the game. 

I think its more related to the Account level (Service Record), not ship tier. I was told that its up to account level 5/6.

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You guys forget the most damning of them all : RNG.

This game RNG is unforgiving no matter if you are vets or newbies.

It turn well aimed shots into a wild turkey shoot out and bad shot into MLG snaps.

 

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3 minutes ago, icy_phoenix said:

I think its more related to the Account level (Service Record), not ship tier. I was told that its up to account level 5/6.

I won't swear to it, but I think it's service level 10. I started another account a while back to test a different line and, talk about seal-clubbing, it was just like shooting fish in a barrel (love these metaphors) until that level, when things started to get a lot harder.

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Super Tester
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Let me go through your post step by step since it covers quite some aspects.

 

39 minutes ago, Labeat said:

But the game basics are hard. it took me months, and after that thanks to each nations own mechanic I had to start completing a course of "watch all Ichase and Flamuu videos" that I can even write a Book on it. I kinda support WG for releasing "How it works" series on youtube.

If it only takes few months, it isn't hard. Some games I played in the past took me 3-4 years to get their basics. Also, I am not sure you are interpreting "basic" right. If carrying teams on your own is within your basic, then it might be hard. For me, its as far as leading shots and learning to prioritize targets (aka angled vs broadside) and not sailing broadside.

39 minutes ago, Labeat said:

Game only tells you that AP is good against Armored Ships. but game never told you which thickness of armor you can pen, overpen. Resulting players shooting whatever they likes. Even yesterday I saw a Gnevy shooting AP at bow on Shiratsuyu. That player only got to knew that Russia dd is gunboat type. but with that in mind he thought his guns are good and he can do anything. To avoid this, WG needs to add the penetration information where you Hover your mouse to shell icon and see the Pen limits information. 

Again, I am asking you one simple question. Lets say you fire AP with a Gnevny at an angled ship, were you doing it while closing your eyes or while they were open? Did you see the how much damage you do? If you see you did nothing, what will you do? Will you keep doing it for the 20 next battles? Players who do these are beyond help and they have no willingness to get better or learn and I doubt you can do anything to improve them. WoWS already have armor layout, do you think people stopped sailing broadside? Gnevny is a tier 6, hence does not qualify as "just" getting the ship. Basically you saw an ignorant player.

39 minutes ago, Labeat said:

World of TANKS has the best guide, where your Aim circle turns red telling that your shell cant penetrate that armored area of exactly where youre aiming. You also see entire information of the shell in garage. Warships needs same guidance too. Also you are forced to play 5 battles with Different Tutorials and strategy. 

Spoonfeeding everything, eh? Well, might be a good feature to have, but I doubt it will help anything really.

39 minutes ago, Labeat said:

Reading these, Wargaming may ask, "We are working hard on many tutorials and physics guidance videos, explaining everything" But, my question is, does the player know this? 99% of gaming industry never provided tutorials in their own channels. So how about after tutorial you suggest them from the game to "subscribe to World of warships youtube channel for Explained guide" ?

Wargaming making these videos and posting everywhere, facebook, youtube, web portal... what more can they do? Mail a package to your home address may be? Naah. Players need to dig through. WG doing everything they can in my opinion for sharing the videos with players. The game itself has low exposure, and this cannot be solved over night. And about tutorials, majority of players look around for the "Skip" button in the tutorial. There are in game news portal page that flashes unread news articles on your profile. Let me ask you, how many times have you clicked there? As I said, there are plenty for anyone who is eager. If you need to force someone to learn a game, he is not going to stay for long.

I think now you can understand my points a bit better. I support making new tutorials and videos and adding in game info and stuffs, but you gotta agree, if a player isn't willing, nothing can help. When you are a gamer, you need to have "What if I do this instead of that" kinda mentality. Otherwise.....

So, while they game is not cheesy easy for new comers, it isn't super hard either to look around (especially the web portal) and see whats going on.

Edited by icy_phoenix

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