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Eggy_Bro

A Case for Inclusivity

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So... this post has been inspired by a comment on one of my older posts. "Noob players who crowd the playerbase and reduce the skill level should leave." I believe is a rough interpretation of what was said.

I am of the opinion that new players should be nurtured and given the chance to get better over time. I suppose most people could be of my opinion, but stay silent about it. But that just leaves the loud majority of posts berating new players who don't know any better.

Now we can't solve idioticy, but we can always help cure ignorance. I'm definitely not the best player out there. I'm not even in the low unicum ranges (I think). However, I enjoy playing this game, and the communities I've engaged with have built a very positive experience. So to maintain this game's health, I'm going to make a case for Newcomers and Inclusivity. 

Since WoWs became available on Steam, there has been a great influx of green commanders. New players who found this game interesting and want to give it a try. 

The training wheels for this game, I feel, come off when a player reaches either tier 4 or 5. That is about when a player has to start playing against actual players should they wish to sustain reasonable growth. However, according to friends of mine who used to play, this is also when a lot of new players simply drop out and stop playing. (ie, they stopped playing when they reached t5) 

I switched over to playing against actual players really by accident when I reached t4. I had a violent shock back then. The skill level difference in playing against predictable AI versus unpredictable humans was immense. By the time I had joined WoWs though, I did have CS:GO and TF2 under my belt. So I at least understood the concept of differences in player skill. And that improving would increase my enjoyment of the game. 

So I persevered, eventually getting good enough to reach the higher tiers and do reasonably well. 

Most new players coming to WoWs though would probably be less experienced. They might not have yet grasped the concept of having to improve their own skills in a game. After all, a wide range of games are based off the concept of merely having your ingame avatar get more powerful while you yourself as a player remain relatively unchallenged. 

In WoWs, however, you as a player have to improve along with your ship. As you climb up the tier ladder, you will face more seasoned players with more experience with the game. They know how to manage their consumables, how to coordinate with each other and how to use map geometry to their advantage. New players need to learn these skills to be able to do well, in lower tiers yes, but especially in higher tiers. 

There are people out there who help. Yuro to name one produces guides on how to optimally play certain ships. Even through memes seemingly inserted purely for entertainment, his videos both show and tell players how to improve. (This does require players to actually put effort into analysing his playstyle and understanding why what he does works, but I didn't say getting gud was easy. Also honestly, Flamu's guides are very much catered to NA and don't suit the Asia meta as much) 

There are some out there who are seemingly out to make the problem worse. Those who chose not to learn, and refuse to take input from others. Worse still, they take any opportunity to beat down those below them, giving them the smallest sense of superiority to pad their fragile egos. These players do nothing to help new commanders who genuinely want to improve. More than likely, they will end up driving these new players away, with their perceptions of the game forever soured by a few bad apples. 

Bad apples will exist in any game. That is an inevitability. But for those who believe that nurturing new players should be the way to go, try as much as possible to encourage new players. 

Do not just give them purely positive feedback. That is a fast track to breeding complacency and causing even more potential toxicity. Try instead to give constructive feedback. Help them rectify their problematic points and teach them how to get better. (I understand that better is a subjective term. But in this game it usually manifests as higher average damage and better win-rate) 

I have found that certain clans are quite supportive and friendly when it comes to playing and improving. The guys over at [1-ATF] were a bit overbearing but still helped me learn how to play destroyers effectively. (Thanks) These would be the ideal kind of clan most players join first. 

There are some who only provide positive feedback, however. And while it preserves the player's will to stay, does not encourage them to get better. And they will inevitably get upset when someone calls them out on their apparent lack of skill. (Certain Australian clans that shall remain unnamed I'm looking at you) 

TL;DR, I believe that us more experienced players should help newer players and encourage them to get better. We should not drive them away, but we should also not praise them to the point of complacency. A positive community focussed on improvement and growth is the best kind of community. Memes included. 

This has been a long post. For those who took the time, thank you. I hope this post has encouraged you to help. If not I hope it was at least interesting to read. Until next time, Fair Winds. 

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I do enjoy this game as well but sometimes I just have a rise of blood pressure when dds on my team don't cap even the point has no enemies(Not joke,90% of them are IJN dds)and keep finding excuses to deny their mistakes..

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[MEGA]
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29 minutes ago, Eggy_Bro said:

TL;DR, I believe that us more experienced players should help newer players and encourage them to get better. We should not drive them away, but we should also not praise them to the point of complacency. A positive community focussed on improvement and growth is the best kind of community. Memes included. 

TBH, I think the real issue is that new players have no channel to learn more about the in depth machinic of this game and how long the learning curve of this game is.

I've moved on to R6 recently and it feels like a much easier learn, even though it has one of the more complex game mechanics for FPS. the thing that helped me ease into that game the fact that not only were the player base quite friendly for the most part. I had people actively telling me what to do in a small team environment where your teammates can see what you are doing, judge you and give advice shout at you in realtime in voice chat. while this was a bit abrasive at first it helped me increase my knowledge of the game much faster then I  ever would have just been watching youtube videos and reading guides.

and in WOWS, there isn't even any official videos going in depth about the machinic, so the new players have no way of learning the game while old players complain they they don't learn the game, which leads to new players being turned off from the game and old players rage quitting

 

 

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My intended reply too long but summarized as:

Learn quick

Listen to good advice

Adapt to situation

Play as part of a team

Play to your ship and not play the ship to you

Ignore bb players that think they can dd better than you

God, that summary is still too long.

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2 hours ago, dejiko_nyo said:

My intended reply too long but summarized as:

Learn quick

Listen to good advice

Adapt to situation

Play as part of a team

Play to your ship and not play the ship to you

Ignore bb players that think they can dd better than you

God, that summary is still too long.

Shorter than my wall of text. Kek. 

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However (bad way to start a topic), I do understand the frustration some players feel. Like when a 50 battle player waltzes into T8 with their premium and having no clue how to play. Coupled with the apparent matchmaker bias leads to some frustration.

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5 hours ago, drakon233 said:

and in WOWS, there isn't even any official videos going in depth about the machinic, so the new players have no way of learning the game while old players complain they they don't learn the game, which leads to new players being turned off from the game and old players rage quitting

Agreed.

I have said previously that the lack of tutorials and in-game explanation is part of the factors in WoWs' poor player retention and player quality.

Because while yes WoWs is still an arcade game compared to say WT, it is still a relatively complex game with deep mechanics.

But the game does nothing to teach the players those mechanics. Sure, there are Youtube videos, CCs and the wiki, but those are on 3rd-party websites out of the game. It also doesn't help that low tier gameplay is nothing like the mid to high tiers.

There needs to be some kind of staged tutorial. Oh you reached tier 5? Play this tutorial to learn about armour angling. You have gotten a tier 6 CV? Here, play this tutorial on strafing and manual drops.

After all, people learn best by doing. And a good tutorial is a lot more effective as a teaching tool then just throwing people into the deep end of the pool. A live combat environment is not an effective classroom, I am sure the post-Midway IJN aviators can attest to that.

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I already given up giving "advice" and try to educate players in game.

Yuro and all others (me included) now does it somewhere else that is not in the middle of the match.
In the battle the player is already facing with his own pressure of his actions, some does not even care with the "I do what I want" attitude.
Reason being giving advice or try to educate someone in the middle of the game is like "Giving orders", "Backseating" and these are the last thing players want when they play a video game.
Constructive feedback with nice tone doesn't do anything for the matter either because as you know it, the process take time and most of the time it got forgotten in the blink of an eye.
We can reminds them that same "constructive feedback" but at best you get the respond of "ok" just to see happens again and at worst you get "It doesn't work for me"

Heck I could go so far saying some of the players even has the "play your own game" attitude towards those who try to educate them.
And play their own game is what fishing divs does, how ironic.
So yes most of the "constructive feedback, criticism, gameplay judgement" should be given only to the one that seek it.

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Back in the days when I was still green, I was fortunate enough to get to know some people when I came to this forum to look for advice. Voice chat with them in TS initially, get to learn a lot :) really miss those days.

In game feedback during a match... difficult. By the time the player already facing bad consequences of his wrong move, any wrong tone in the advice might backfire..

What I usually do is I use in game text plus quick command. E.g. a player is over extending, I'd ask him to "Get back!" With quick command, immediately followed by a typed  word "careful" Does it work? Not always.. 

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Me (Des Moines) : "Gearing, please do not try to gunfight the enemy Des Moines." 

Noob (Gearing): "STFU camping noob" 

Noob (Gearing): Proceeds to gunfight a Des Moines, dies 20 seconds later.

Noob (Gearing): "Trash team where was my support???" Reports me. 

Me (Des Moines): "...." 

^ this is very common. Hence why I don't try to help noobs anymore. 

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imo, the thing we need are somebody to mentor players that really want to improve. it's not enough just playing and learning from your own battles, as it is a slow and agonizing method of learning. my experience of *gitgud* is watching youtube for guides and tutorials for the game mechanic, divisioning with a skilled player actually the learning process, moreso if the divmate tutors the player on how to win.

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[UNRYU]
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Maybe it would be a great idea to create a mentor/mentee system where a player of more than [insert number of battles] can sign up for. Then new player can ask to be that said player mentee (can be mentee only if he has less than [insert number of battles] under his belt). Both of them can get some minor rewards for playing together (3% increase in credit?) and if the mentee stats improve during [insert time period] (using the avg stat of ships as measure) then both of them can get a container or something as reward? This should increase the willingness for experienced player to teach new players and also bring out the "willing to learn" player out. Of course mentor can only have a limited number of mentee.

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Let's be real here 
this game have very long and steep curve to learn even game is quite "dumb down" for people in this new generation.
people have to take so long time to learn due to the fact that you cannot understand mechanics from watching, you have to experience it on both ends.
This game lack of any sort of meaningful tutorials for people to learn which is bizarre consider how steep learning curve can be  and time you have to take in order to learn plus how erratic environment in PvP mode will not allow you learn much of it 

so to make thing easier for new player, they need to get babysat for quite sometime in order to learn (saying for 500 - 1000 games at least)
and Intensive basics guide need to be very specific and make people learn as fast as they could.
 My intensive guide mean once you unlock each class, you have to pass intensive tutorial for each class which mean to be barrier for new people to learn and need trial to guarantee that they have enough knowledge to at least know what to do with their own ship. My estimation of complete guides set would take around 2 hours.
 
However, people these day doesn't like taking long time just for learning. they want thing that made it easy for them (look at NA forum and you will understand what I mean). people doesn't like thing go harsh for them or they turned off instantly because they can't get good against it.

For something like people turned off at T5, they don't stand the chance against T6 let alone T7 after they jumped from "newbie" pools into "experienced" pools. Even though I did support +-2 MM as for sake of variety and challenge and improvement, I do have sentiments on these "new player" that have to struggle their way since they barely able to fight ship at same tier against well-seasoned player. This is where MM could do some change to accommodate them to have at least some chance in learning i.e..

> MM algorithm needs to separate people below certain amount of battles from one who above it. And it should have several bars set for people to learn step by step
     - 100 battles
     - 250 battles
     - 500 battles
     - 1000 battles a above
These are example of "laddering" that help new player excluded form experienced one and lower their chance to get "sealclubbed" and ragequit because of that.

> MM algorithms need to make new player have more chance to be top tier. power of ship tier by tier is jumped up once you go higher tier, thus you have harder time fighting against one above you. I do not support +-1 MM because all it did is make game more one dimensional and dull. New players barely able to fight against ship in own tier let alone +1 tier and +2 tier respectively, algorithm need to make them fighting mostly ship in own tier with occasion of ship that tier higher come into pool according to ladder. the more PvP game under your belt, the more chance you get to fight tier higher as challenge your ability to learn but should not be excessive like currently we have now. this aimed for new player to get a grasp of how this game works so they stand better chance against experienced once they passed through T7.

> MM algorithm needs to distribute chance to be "top tier" "middle tier" and "bottom tier" equally for one player. This is not only for new player that going to struggle in high tier once they get there, this is also for experienced player that did not enjoy being excessive in being too many "head" or "tail" in one tier. Balanced MM should distribute chance to be top tier, mid tier and bottom tier equally or 33% for each tier in order to make sure players has variety, challenge, nd enjoyment (I do not support +-1 because in the end you cant run away from fact that you will be either top tier or bottom tier which people hate to be latter half so you better come up with +-0 MM).

> Remove some sort of exploiting MM (e.g. anchoring div or typical fail div combo) to seal away any chance to exploit MM for absolute gain for some people or just to cockblock new player in order to drive them away.

and so many more I could come up with.
In the end, people doesn't like when someone telling them what to do because that is their game, not the one who tell him what to do (even its team game) so you better let him think for himself and guide if necessary. 

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