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Puggsley

Advice request

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I'm interested in developing my DD play and was looking for some resources to help. 

For context I'm at T8 with the Kagero (play mostly, say 70% of T8 DD) and Z23 (30%). I fancy myself as a DD player, although that's more a function of how bad my other class performance is! 

Currently averaging a bit over 33k average damage (25kish spotting) from my T8's. Current short term aim is to get to 40k average damage. The aspect I'm trying to work on currently is more effective gunnery, I 'm not getting a lot of frags. I tend to play just outside detection range so I'm a bit reluctant to smoke up and get radared while gunning. Usually I vision game, cap contest, spot and torp.

Happy to put up replays if there are any forumers who give feedback?

I've looked at Flamu and Noster on youtube and they were generally helpful. Are there any other good ones out there? 

My noobish attempts to use the search function in this forum always returns no results. Any gems in the forums?

I use wows-numbers for stats, is there any other ones you guys would recommend?

What are the most useful things stats or KPI's to look at to measure performance improvement. My overall preference is Win Rate, but I see that as a result and not necessarily useful to point to which areas to look to improve. 

Thanks in advance

 

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My 2 c - IJN DDs are not really sit in smoke and go pew pew boats. Their ROF is too low. The higher tier IJN DDs do have very underrated guns, but their use is quite situational. great for finishing off boats, or getting damage when you know the target is distracted. Really for IJN I'd be working on (ab)using the RPF skill and working out how to fire good predictive torps. Smoke on IJN DDs is usually saved as a defensive measure. Sounds like you have a decent handle on what a DD needs to do.

So maybe have a search on how to RPF?

 

 

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Thanks Joe, I've been using Flamu for RPF advice, and I'm not running smoke on the Kagero. 

What got me interested was looking at the averages by percent band on wows-numbers. My kills were way lower than the server averages, even for IJN boats it got me curious why.

Saving creds to get the Benson and Yug.

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In my opinion, DD gameplay should not be measured by damage output, especially IJN DDs. The outcome will be inconsistent, since torps are your major source of damage, and it relies on mistakes from enemy's part. However, as to what you should do, there is no fix rules. It depends on lineup, If you are alone to a cap side, at first try to see if you can grab the cap. But if you find someone you cannot overpower, giving ground may be the right thing to do and you can always come back to reclaim it back once the supports are neutralized. Besides, always think of escape routes when you go in. RPF is a must skill to have. Make sure you do not sit broadside from general direction of RPF.

As a DD player, there's another thing you should research, the locations RADAR cruisers take. If you know where they might be, you can always try to avoid them. Best positioning is when you are being followed by lot of friendlies. IJN DDs can accomplish wonders when followed by supports, cause you will always outspot enemy DDs, and you just need someone else to shoot him. Torp prediction is another skill altogether. Just do not look at enemy when torping, also look at allies who are shooting that enemy. This might be a factor when the enemy decides to turn left, although you thought he might turn right (for example).

When paired with a gunboat DD, try to be his eyes. You are always stronger together, than alone. And do not hesitate to smoke and shoot. You may consider using smoke for allies when you see the situation is quite advantageous, otherwise, Id recommend, keep your smoke to yourself. Whether you use smoke or not is based on your skill. Are you good with torps? May be then TRB is better, if you keep missing torps, may be smoke would allow you to collect more damage and kills.

While gunboats can pew pew all day long, IJN DDs need to be more disciplined in gunnery. You open fire when you know you are going to deal massive blows, and cannot be focused down by enemy support. In cap, should you get spotted, do not open fire before enemy. I usually move slow in cap, I let enemy DD open fire so it is visible to the team, then sometimes I smoke up based on situation, sometimes just try to stalk.

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I'm a DD main, I rarely use my guns unless my hand is forced (USN/Pan Asia DD's). I find it not worth the rain of shells you have to cop from being spotted out to 11km. Smoke is situational as well, it's fine to use it to escape but remember it also hides the enemy from your team mates at times so smoke can be a double edged sword. 100% you want RPF,  it gives you intel on the general area on where to expect torps to come from and also on where to send your torps especially in the cap early game. Radar awareness is essential in today's radar soaked meta.

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7 hours ago, icy_phoenix said:

In my opinion, DD gameplay should not be measured by damage output, especially IJN DDs. The outcome will be inconsistent, since torps are your major source of damage, and it relies on mistakes from enemy's part. However, as to what you should do, there is no fix rules. It depends on lineup, If you are alone to a cap side, at first try to see if you can grab the cap. But if you find someone you cannot overpower, giving ground may be the right thing to do and you can always come back to reclaim it back once the supports are neutralized. Besides, always think of escape routes when you go in. RPF is a must skill to have. Make sure you do not sit broadside from general direction of RPF.

As a DD player, there's another thing you should research, the locations RADAR cruisers take. If you know where they might be, you can always try to avoid them. Best positioning is when you are being followed by lot of friendlies. IJN DDs can accomplish wonders when followed by supports, cause you will always outspot enemy DDs, and you just need someone else to shoot him. Torp prediction is another skill altogether. Just do not look at enemy when torping, also look at allies who are shooting that enemy. This might be a factor when the enemy decides to turn left, although you thought he might turn right (for example).

When paired with a gunboat DD, try to be his eyes. You are always stronger together, than alone. And do not hesitate to smoke and shoot. You may consider using smoke for allies when you see the situation is quite advantageous, otherwise, Id recommend, keep your smoke to yourself. Whether you use smoke or not is based on your skill. Are you good with torps? May be then TRB is better, if you keep missing torps, may be smoke would allow you to collect more damage and kills.

While gunboats can pew pew all day long, IJN DDs need to be more disciplined in gunnery. You open fire when you know you are going to deal massive blows, and cannot be focused down by enemy support. In cap, should you get spotted, do not open fire before enemy. I usually move slow in cap, I let enemy DD open fire so it is visible to the team, then sometimes I smoke up based on situation, sometimes just try to stalk.

Adding on for Z23 and cap contesting DDs ^^^

Z23 is generally very awkward to play because of its clumsiness and large detection, and people usually fuss over the choice of guns you can choose. Id say its entirely based on personal preference. For the 150mm, you might want to play a little further back as if you were a light cruiser, while you are able to push in and fight DDs better with the 128mm guns. Both has its drawbacks and advantages, such as reload speed, fire chance and alpha damage. 

Higher tier German DDs have the same clumsiness issue, but at T10 you can counter nearly every dd (except radar DDs or another German DD) by just pressing that magic hydro button and then smoking up (beware of enemy radar cruisers though). Its playstyle is really similar to USN DDs so ill just explain it together.

When playing a capping DD (KM,USN,PA) i usually wait inside the edge of the cap until the enemy dds or/and radar ships at the other caps are spotted. While it can waste much time that can be used to scout and deal damage, you get a better idea of who you are facing. Try to reverse into caps so you can get the hell out immediately when you get radared or spotted. Also, point your ass towards the direction of your RPF, thats usually where the torps come from, and you would have an easier time dodging it (tactic can be used for all dds except Russian gunboats). 

When you spot the torpedoes, make sure to count how many are in one spread, how many spreads and the type of torpedoes. See three spreads of 5? Thats a Shimakaze. 2 spreads of 5? Might be a Shima, Gearing or Grozovoi. 2 spreads of 4 usually means lower IJN and KM dds.That way you can roughly gauge the type of enemy you will be facing in the cap.

Then, you might want to take the risk of moving further into the cap if you are confident enough that you can beat the enemy dd in the cap. If you have support from your team, good. If not, try reversing slowly into the cap until you spot something or get spotted yourself, then pop speed boost and accelerate out if you get into trouble. IJN DDs usually has an edge when doing this since you spot other DDs first, and you are relatively small and can dodge shells if you get radared halfway.

When torping towards RPF, try not to torp directly at the RPF right as you enter the cap, try to send your torps towards the right or left, as it is likely that most dds will turn and try to reach the flank, or try to U-turn within the cap so they dont have to reverse into it slowly. Alternatively you can wait for a while before determining that the dd is not moving, and send your torpedoes towards your RPF direction. 

 When you get radared, NEVER panic and try to flee. Most people expect you to gtfo if you get radared, and usually aim a little further up from where you are travelling in. Now the trick here is to do the opposite of what they expect, slow down to a stop and start reversing. Use your speed boost and whatnot, you will need all the help you can get to juke these shells (ahem acceleration upgrade ahem). Make sure the enemy sees you reversing, and quickly jam W when you see the shells coming. once you dodge that, get out of the cap and wait for the radar to cool down before entering again.

The golden rule is to be patient and wait for your targets to make mistakes, you wont get any rewards for suiciding into the enemy (except killing the BB you are yoloing into). Trust me, a dead DD hurts the team more than a dead BB. 

 

 

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Thanks guys, will digest and take on board.

I ended up buying the Z46 and its a vast improvement over the 23.

 

Edited by Puggsley

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22 hours ago, icy_phoenix said:

In my opinion, DD gameplay should not be measured by damage output, especially IJN DDs. The outcome will be inconsistent, since torps are your major source of damage, and it relies on mistakes from enemy's part. However, as to what you should do, there is no fix rules. Yep, I'll have a 100k + game then might have a couple of zeros but they will be big assist games, almost cracked 200k spotting last night, a very nice feeling as it was keepign 2 radar boats lit for my 6 backups. The variation doesn't really worry me too much.

It depends on lineup, If you are alone to a cap side, at first try to see if you can grab the cap. But if you find someone you cannot overpower, giving ground may be the right thing to do and you can always come back to reclaim it back once the supports are neutralized. Will almost always contest a cap, even if it is to stay there until i need to bugger off if there is not a lot of support. Getting better at judging this. Besides, always think of escape routes when you go in. Sometimes get caught out by grounding during evasion to escape. Usually ok to manage low HP and skulk around as a close support for bigger ships or scout when it is not contesting caps. RPF is a must skill to have. Yep, i experimented with not having it on the Z23 and it is a big difference in how you can play. Make sure you do not sit broadside from general direction of RPF.

As a DD player, there's another thing you should research, the locations RADAR cruisers take. Learning these and feel a lot more confident about being able to recognise danger spots. If you know where they might be, you can always try to avoid them. Best positioning is when you are being followed by lot of friendlies. IJN DDs can accomplish wonders when followed by supports, cause you will always outspot enemy DDs, and you just need someone else to shoot him. I like running at shallow angle across contested caps so flush out enemy dd but still have a decent amount of time to react within small distance difference. Feel confident in holding fire and fading in and out of view to keep eyes on dds. I played a lot of Light Tanks in WoT and think I have a pretty sound map awareness and support awareness. Torp prediction is another skill altogether. Just do not look at enemy when torping, also look at allies who are shooting that enemy. This might be a factor when the enemy decides to turn left, although you thought he might turn right (for example). OK I don't really do this. I've been working on using guns to lure enemy dd into my prelaunched torps, but not so much with allies. 

When paired with a gunboat DD, try to be his eyes. You are always stronger together, than alone. And do not hesitate to smoke and shoot. You may consider using smoke for allies when you see the situation is quite advantageous, otherwise, Id recommend, keep your smoke to yourself. Whether you use smoke or not is based on your skill. Are you good with torps? I think I'm OK, I'm getting a lot more double purpose torps as flamu calls them, If no targets I will shoot area denial ones into likely spots early in game or RPF shots. Most of my torp engagements are from about 6 to 8km in the Kag - I sometimes have been caught out by being a bit too close and having trouble kiting away from a pursuer. May be then TRB is better, if you keep missing torps, may be smoke would allow you to collect more damage and kills. I kind of feel smoke is pretty dangerous with no hydro, most decent players will put a lot of pressure on you in smoke

While gunboats can pew pew all day long, IJN DDs need to be more disciplined in gunnery. You open fire when you know you are going to deal massive blows, and cannot be focused down by enemy support. In cap, should you get spotted, do not open fire before enemy. I usually move slow in cap, I let enemy DD open fire so it is visible to the team, then sometimes I smoke up based on situation, sometimes just try to stalk.

Thanks for the great pointers.

One issue I have been wondering about is the number of caps to try for.

If its just me and another dd I'll try to get 2 of the free ones if its a 4 cap game (but be prepared to fall back if need be), or two adjacent caps if there are 3 and very aggressively defend mine.

Any thoughts on the "flood a winning number of caps" or "try for them all" if you have 3 or 4 DD's decision? Which one seems to work better in you guys experience?

 

 

Edited by Puggsley

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13 hours ago, Exiaa said:

Adding on for Z23 and cap contesting DDs ^^^

Z23 is generally very awkward to play because of its clumsiness and large detection, and people usually fuss over the choice of guns you can choose. Id say its entirely based on personal preference. For the 150mm, you might want to play a little further back as if you were a light cruiser, while you are able to push in and fight DDs better with the 128mm guns. Both has its drawbacks and advantages, such as reload speed, fire chance and alpha damage. I used the 150s and I think i was getting  little too close to enemy dds. Finding the 128 on the Z46 much faster in dealing with enemy dds (only a few games though). 

Higher tier German DDs have the same clumsiness issue, but at T10 you can counter nearly every dd (except radar DDs or another German DD) by just pressing that magic hydro button and then smoking up (beware of enemy radar cruisers though). Its playstyle is really similar to USN DDs so ill just explain it together.

When playing a capping DD (KM,USN,PA) i usually wait inside the edge of the cap until the enemy dds or/and radar ships at the other caps are spotted. While it can waste much time that can be used to scout and deal damage, you get a better idea of who you are facing. I mostly always go to caps first and scout/damage after that or if there are opportunities to do damage while near caps. Never (I typed almost, but its never) go off on scouting raids before caps are secured or I'm pushed off under overwhelming pressure early in game. Try to reverse into caps so you can get the hell out immediately when you get radared or spotted. Will do this Also, point your ass towards the direction of your RPF, thats usually where the torps come from, and you would have an easier time dodging it (tactic can be used for all dds except Russian gunboats). 

When you spot the torpedoes, make sure to count how many are in one spread, how many spreads and the type of torpedoes. See three spreads of 5? Thats a Shimakaze. 2 spreads of 5? Might be a Shima, Gearing or Grozovoi. 2 spreads of 4 usually means lower IJN and KM dds.That way you can roughly gauge the type of enemy you will be facing in the cap. Roger

Then, you might want to take the risk of moving further into the cap if you are confident enough that you can beat the enemy dd in the cap. If you have support from your team, good. If not, try reversing slowly into the cap until you spot something or get spotted yourself, then pop speed boost and accelerate out if you get into trouble. IJN DDs usually has an edge when doing this since you spot other DDs first, and you are relatively small and can dodge shells if you get radared halfway. If I have good support and feel its time to spot the dd, I usually run at fairly high speed but at a shallow angle to where I think they are so that I get a decent time between detection and my camo running out to decide what to do. I can quickly turn away if they are advancing towards me to limit detection or keep them spotted (they will almost always turn away) by turning a little towards them. Also lets me fire some area suppression torps to make it a bit harder for them to evade while escaping. Will try the reversing method, cheers.

When torping towards RPF, try not to torp directly at the RPF right as you enter the cap, try to send your torps towards the right or left, as it is likely that most dds will turn and try to reach the flank, or try to U-turn within the cap so they dont have to reverse into it slowly. Alternatively you can wait for a while before determining that the dd is not moving, and send your torpedoes towards your RPF direction. 

 When you get radared, NEVER panic and try to flee. Most people expect you to gtfo if you get radared, and usually aim a little further up from where you are travelling in. Now the trick here is to do the opposite of what they expect, slow down to a stop and start reversing. Use your speed boost and whatnot, you will need all the help you can get to juke these shells (ahem acceleration upgrade ahem). Make sure the enemy sees you reversing, and quickly jam W when you see the shells coming. once you dodge that, get out of the cap and wait for the radar to cool down before entering again. I was a flee-er, but have started to use the wasd jinks and its very effective. I have seen the light. 

The golden rule is to be patient and wait for your targets to make mistakes, you wont get any rewards for suiciding into the enemy (except killing the BB you are yoloing into). Trust me, a dead DD hurts the team more than a dead BB. Learning this, I still get caught out with silly over aggression sometimes.

Thanks for the great points.

 

 On RPF.

Does the direction indicated change smoothly as the target changes bearing, or does it jump between "sectors". I've noticed the detector arc jumping around a bit.

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4 minutes ago, Puggsley said:

 On RPF.

Does the direction indicated change smoothly as the target changes bearing, or does it jump between "sectors". I've noticed the detector arc jumping around a bit.

that means there are 2 ships in your general area on the edge of the rpf and it's jumping between them

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Just now, drakon233 said:

that means there are 2 ships in your general area on the edge of the rpf and it's jumping between them

I thought that but noticed on a dd close to me on the other side of an island (so only one ship) it seemed to jump slightly between being stable, I'll see if I can find the replay ans put it up. Could be a setting I have as well, its usually a user issue where I'm involved....

Lets not go into the reason why my discord was not coming through to my clanmates

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Just now, Puggsley said:

I thought that but noticed on a dd close to me on the other side of an island (so only one ship) it seemed to jump slightly between being stable, I'll see if I can find the replay ans put it up. Could be a setting I have as well, its usually a user issue where I'm involved....

Lets not go into the reason why my discord was not coming through to my clanmates

never had that problem, then it means there were 2 ships on the other side of the island, I've never seen a RPF glitch like that

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1 hour ago, drakon233 said:

never had that problem, then it means there were 2 ships on the other side of the island, I've never seen a RPF glitch like that

Only 3 ships left and other 2 on the other side of the map. I'll look for replay tonight.

Also found it at the 16 minute mark on this flamu vid. You see the ship is almost right next to him and the RPF jerks to the left and does not move smoothly. This might be something old in this vid though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6Vxb_cakyE

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4 hours ago, Puggsley said:

One issue I have been wondering about is the number of caps to try for.

If its just me and another dd I'll try to get 2 of the free ones if its a 4 cap game (but be prepared to fall back if need be), or two adjacent caps if there are 3 and very aggressively defend mine.

Any thoughts on the "flood a winning number of caps" or "try for them all" if you have 3 or 4 DD's decision? Which one seems to work better in you guys experience?

 

 

It depends on game situation really. Look at point difference, look at enemy movement, look at cap control.

Ask yourself this, will killing the enemy be good enough to secure the win? Do we already have more caps than enemy? Do enemy intend to retake caps?

For example, in a 4 cap games, let's say your team control 2. Enemy control 1. Then you might ignore the last cap, but only when you look around and be assured that your team can maintain the advantage.

Also, if you have to cross the entire map to reach a cap, may be there are chances that you can contribute more in the sector you are in. For example, if your flank is pushing, and you are the DD with them, do not leave the flank. It's almost impossible to push flank without a DD scouting ahead.

Basically it comes down to your judgement calls, based on your experience, and your ability to think 5 minutes into the future of the game.. and adapt to ever changing situations.

Just remember this though, if there are no CVs, you hold the most influence in the battle to turn the tide. Not bb, not CA, it's you in your tiny DD. 

4 hours ago, Puggsley said:

 On RPF.

Does the direction indicated change smoothly as the target changes bearing, or does it jump between "sectors". I've noticed the detector arc jumping around a bit.

Yes, indicator points the sector, not the ship. So it jumps when target ship moves to a new sector. Basically it gives you a general direction. The transition will be fast and look smoother if the target is far, transition will take longer and will be jumpy if the target is almost near your detection range. Use this info to plan ahead.

Also you can use rpf to judge distance. Look around for enemy visible ships and their distace. Now look at rpf direction. You can easily set an upper bound on how far your target might actually be.

Hope these helps.

Edited by icy_phoenix

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Thanks Icy.

The following replay shows it clearly as well at 17:31, 15:47 and 14:27 as I was facing off the Z46. Other DD is far away so its only 1 ship.

https://replayswows.com/replay/26713#stats

"Just remember this though, if there are no CVs, you hold the most influence in the battle to turn the tide. Not bb, not CA, it's you in your tiny DD." and that's why I enjoy DD so much. 

 

Edited by Puggsley

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8 hours ago, PussyLicker1306 said:

Can we obtained the north carolina ship without colorado ship exp? Im using new mexico

You can, using free exp (green exp). You have to unlock Colorado first (again, can be done using free exp if you have it), then instead of purchasing, go to North Carolina and unlock it (if you have enough free exp).

I would suggest against it though. Colorado is a great learning experience, at least was for me.

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Great topic puggsly, and great information icy and the rest.

 

I didn't even look at RPF as it was tagged with 2 stars in the wiki. that will help me heaps with my DD play.... keep it coming!!

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10 hours ago, icy_phoenix said:

You can, using free exp (green exp). You have to unlock Colorado first (again, can be done using free exp if you have it), then instead of purchasing, go to North Carolina and unlock it (if you have enough free exp).

I would suggest against it though. Colorado is a great learning experience, at least was for me.

aw ok, thank you for helping my question. colorado is difficult to use hahaha

 

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RPF is fantastic for helping dd play. It lets you get a really good picture of who is around, and once you get a known distance fix (either they are in cap or another lit ship which your indicator flicks to) then its like you have a radar. 

Lost count of the number of caps I have won by torping at the indicator and hitting an enemy DD which either sinks them or forces them out.

Also found it to be really useful in late game when it is close. Actually its just really helpful all the time.

 

I've just finished the Colorado grind and I enjoyed it. One of my last games was a Kraken - I've only a very small collection of those so I'm fond of the Col for that alone! 

Its seems very bouncy and was the ship where I felt I started to get BB driving a bit (I'm still very crap in them so take the following with a grain of salt). I think you have to keep in the middle of the map, if you go outside then you are so slow that you are never going to be able to keep up or you are easy to isolate. That kind of forced me into a steady slow advance where you needed to angle. Overcommitting was sort of hard to do because you are so slow, and that showed me the value of mid range fighting. My other BBs were fast enough for me to get into trouble easily so I either had a blinder or died really early. Plus your guns are awesome at that tier and will reward you with a steady stream of cits! 

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