Carriers- how am I so unlucky?

[Ironside1]

Well I'm still relatively new to WOWS- I used to play and recently got back into it- tanks was always more my thing, but anyway I have a few questions in regards to carriers. 

- Fighter v Fighter combat is driving me insane. The Japanese always seem superior to mine, depsite their wing size I've read that the American fighters should be superior. In 1v1 squadron fights, I have 7 planes and the IJN player has 4 and he still takes my entire squad out quite often, with one plane left in his. This is in the Independence against the Tier 6 IJN carrier- is this purely RNG and I'm just getting unlucky? I've got all fighter upgrades I can possibly get, commander skills included. Is there any way to improve on this?

- CV balance.. are the Japanese Carriers just better, period? I've beat them from time to time but that's mostly due to some good strafing runs when they're not paying attention, meaning I'm up against an unskilled player, but their loadouts just seem superior and I don't find it fair that they can deploy 3 fighter squadrons at once, that means they can engage my fighters, both of my bombers, and then still bomb my allies at the same time. And it's especially annoying when I'm above allied AA and I still lose the fighter combat. 

- Strafing runs.. do they make your planes get shot down easily as they're ending? It's quite often I'll do a strafing run and then get dominated as it finishes by another squadron that will rip my planes to shreds within seconds, meaning, once again, the IJN have an advantage since they can bait the one fighter into a strafing run and then have other fighters ready to take advantage of the weakened fighter coming out of the run, as strafing runs are the best way for the US CV to beat the Japanese fighters all at once, it's impossible to engage all 3 in normal combat. 

- Tier 6.. everyones AA just gets so much better, and I'm fine with that it means I can bait enemies into more effective AA fire, but my torpedo bombers seem to die incredibly fast, despite having the extra 75% HP from the commander skill, my dive bombers seem to survive no problem. Just flying anywhere near any kind of enemy ship gets my planes utterly destroyed. 

Should I bother continuing with the American CV line? It's doing nothing but make me rage 60% of the time, half of it is "git gud" the other half seems to be RNG, and if the IJN CVs are outrightly superior, I'd prefer to just play them while I'm still semi-learning.

[exter001]

I've played both IJN CV and USN CV til t6 and not once have my IJN fighter win a 1v1 dogfight against USN fighter and vice versa on my USN. Are you sure that when you strafe, the enemy didn't strafe right after you? because that's what I do in my IJN carrier, bait the strafe, dodge, strafe back.

 

As for the t6 AA, you just have to learn which ship you can strike and which you cannot. For strong AA ship, you can wait for friendlies to HE spam him then strike him when his AA is weakened.

[Thyaliad]

1 hour ago, Ironside1 said:

- Fighter v Fighter combat is driving me insane. The Japanese always seem superior to mine, depsite their wing size I've read that the American fighters should be superior. In 1v1 squadron fights, I have 7 planes and the IJN player has 4 and he still takes my entire squad out quite often, with one plane left in his. This is in the Independence against the Tier 6 IJN carrier- is this purely RNG and I'm just getting unlucky? I've got all fighter upgrades I can possibly get, commander skills included. Is there any way to improve on this?

Are you sure you are not fighting within enemy AA? Unless RNG really hates you, USN fighters should win against IJN fighters in a straight up click dogfight. Some ships like Atlanta can have really long range AA if they spec for it. Be aware of those ships and try not to dogfight anywhere near them. Tier 6 is where some ships get insane levels of AA, and it is only going to get worse as you move up the tiers. Learn to identify such ships and avoid them. Only strike them when it is absolutely necessary or if it is late in the game and they have lost their AA guns to HE spam.

1 hour ago, Ironside1 said:

- CV balance.. are the Japanese Carriers just better, period? I've beat them from time to time but that's mostly due to some good strafing runs when they're not paying attention, meaning I'm up against an unskilled player, but their loadouts just seem superior and I don't find it fair that they can deploy 3 fighter squadrons at once, that means they can engage my fighters, both of my bombers, and then still bomb my allies at the same time. And it's especially annoying when I'm above allied AA and I still lose the fighter combat. 

Depends on the tier. Tiers 4-5 USN CVs are superior. At Tier 6 the Independence is quite balanced against a 1-2-2 Ryujou. Against a 3-1-1 the enemy Ryujou is going to win the air war against you unfortunately, but on the bright side apart from spotting he is pretty useless for his team. 1 torpedo and 1 dive bomber squadron isn't going to cut it in the damage department and Tier 6 AA plus small reserves means he is going to run out of bombers very fast.

At Tiers 7-8 IJN CVs are superior, though they are the least of your worries. The main problem are the Premium CVs - Kaga and Saipan at Tier 7 and Enterprise and Graf Zeppelin at Tier 8. IJN CVs at Tiers 9-10 are still superior to USN, though not by much.

2 hours ago, Ironside1 said:

- Strafing runs.. do they make your planes get shot down easily as they're ending? It's quite often I'll do a strafing run and then get dominated as it finishes by another squadron that will rip my planes to shreds within seconds, meaning, once again, the IJN have an advantage since they can bait the one fighter into a strafing run and then have other fighters ready to take advantage of the weakened fighter coming out of the run, as strafing runs are the best way for the US CV to beat the Japanese fighters all at once, it's impossible to engage all 3 in normal combat. 

No strafing doesn't do that. What is probably happening is the enemy CV is counter-strafing your strafing fighters. That is why in a highly skilled CV duel the player who strafes first usually loses the engagement. Because unless you get some fighters in your strafe, the enemy will just dodge your strafe and counter-strafe, which is easy to do since your fighters are moving in a straight predictable path.

For more guides on CVs I recommend watching Farazelleth's videos on Youtube - he is one of the best CV players in EU and he has a whole range of CV guides.

Here is his one on the Independence:

Hope that helps!

 

[Ironside1]

I'm 100% sure I wasn't getting strafed as mine ended, it would end up in a normal click battle, but I'd be two planes down. I assume it's because my fighters won't fight back whilst they're being attacked in the last second of their strafe- so it gives the IJN fighters the upper hand.

Thanks for the guide, I'll have a look! 

[S4pp3R]

To be honest mate, I'd suggest only using your CVs for Scenarios and then I'd be going IJN strike...

Otherwise I wouldn't play them, they're completely changing how they work at some point in future...

The reason for this is that from 6+ IJN tend to have the advantage if you are skilled as more squadrons. The exception to this is the premium CVs, all of which should never have been added to the game...

Playing CVs you'll usually find only pros and potatoes and even if you play well you will almost always be blamed for your team's loss and never thanked for the win.

Goodluck

[Ironside1]

I've started my way onto the IJN line, so I'm gonna be playing both. And probably the UK when it's released. 

I would just wait for the rework, but people have been saying 2019 for that.. which is pretty bad since I only like playing CV's. I played on the American servers for awhile doing BB lines, switched to Asia for the ping, and still didn't really enjoy the game that much, but I really enjoy CV's- so I main them. Playing other ship types isn't gonna keep me around until the rework :P 

I hope the IJN carriers are more enjoyable

[icy_phoenix]

2 hours ago, Ironside1 said:

hope the IJN carriers are more enjoyable

Do you know which nation's carriers are most enjoyable? The "Premium" nation. Like, Kaga, Saipan, Enterprise, Graf Zep (sadly not hitting shop before rework).

[Robby_Hermanto]

On 7/6/2018 at 3:57 PM, Ironside1 said:

Well I'm still relatively new to WOWS- I used to play and recently got back into it- tanks was always more my thing, but anyway I have a few questions in regards to carriers. 

- Fighter v Fighter combat is driving me insane. The Japanese always seem superior to mine, depsite their wing size I've read that the American fighters should be superior. In 1v1 squadron fights, I have 7 planes and the IJN player has 4 and he still takes my entire squad out quite often, with one plane left in his. This is in the Independence against the Tier 6 IJN carrier- is this purely RNG and I'm just getting unlucky? I've got all fighter upgrades I can possibly get, commander skills included. Is there any way to improve on this?

In the game, USN Fighters are overall excel over IJN fighters. It is not because they are stronger, but it just they simply have 6 planes in a squadron instead of 4 in IJN.

Please note: on T5, IJN has a higher fighter tier than its USN counterpart. It is deceiving to players who just learn to play CV line. You will feel weaker on T4, but feel capable on T5, but then weak again at T6.

With a 10 skills commander, players can access a skill called "Air Superiority" that will add 1 fighter extra into your fighter squadron. This makes the powerful USN squadron who already have 6 become 7. For IJN, this will make your 4 planes become 5.

To improve your performance on IJN CV dealing with the situation:

On T4 and T5: Not much can be done. Just try to avoid those fighters and race the damage for you have better striking capability (2 torp bombers of IJN vs 1 torp bombers + 1 dive bombers on USN). On T4 and T5 will be the best chance for you to learn cross dropping torpedoes. Fluency in this will results you a better CV player compared to those who only play USN CV line.

Or

Try to distract opponent fighters away, and then your striking squadrons sneaking around the map undetected to find opponent CV. Sink opponent CV as soon as possible.

On T6 and T7: Let say the situation is opponent commander has Air Superiority skill that makes them have 7 fighters in a squadron and you don't. You are on an IJN CV bridge, your opponent is a USN CV.

You should use the module of 3 fighters setup. Make the squadron of no 2 and 3 always fly together, and squadron no. 4 in a bit distance. The IJN CV without "Air Superiority" will be on a very huge advantage. If you need to engage a dogfight, use that combo of squadron 2 and 3 VS 1 squadron of opponent. The win chance will be 100% (with condition of no enemy AA interference). The worst chance will be you lost 2 planes of each squadron and opponent will lose all.

Then now you will ask, "So what is the huge advantage?". The answer is: T6 USN CV (Independence) has very a limited fighter stock. Once she lost the first 7, she only have 5 planes left to replace the loss and it is already ALL of available fighters. While on the other hand, IJN CV can replenish 3 times of a full squadron in case she make mistake to losing them.

On T8 and above: I believe you already have excellent skill and need no more guide.

On 7/6/2018 at 3:57 PM, Ironside1 said:

 CV balance.. are the Japanese Carriers just better, period? I've beat them from time to time but that's mostly due to some good strafing runs when they're not paying attention, meaning I'm up against an unskilled player, but their loadouts just seem superior and I don't find it fair that they can deploy 3 fighter squadrons at once, that means they can engage my fighters, both of my bombers, and then still bomb my allies at the same time. And it's especially annoying when I'm above allied AA and I still lose the fighter combat. 

From T4 to T7, IJN averagely excels in performance compared to USN. This is according in line of the history. At the beginning of Pacific war, IJN has better quality: more agile, more speed, more range, more deadly. Along as the war progressing, US has better economy to replace the loss, research for better planes, and deploy them to the war theater on time.

My current achievement is at T7 of both nation. About performance, T7 Hiryu is the best. There are some other premium CVs I have like T7 Saipan and T7 Kaga. Both offer unique gameplay and both are balanced in my opinion.

On 7/6/2018 at 3:57 PM, Ironside1 said:

Strafing runs.. do they make your planes get shot down easily as they're ending? It's quite often I'll do a strafing run and then get dominated as it finishes by another squadron that will rip my planes to shreds within seconds, meaning, once again, the IJN have an advantage since they can bait the one fighter into a strafing run and then have other fighters ready to take advantage of the weakened fighter coming out of the run, as strafing runs are the best way for the US CV to beat the Japanese fighters all at once, it's impossible to engage all 3 in normal combat. 

Do not use strafing unless it is necessary. This is the most common behavior of T6 players who just get access to strafing mechanism. They strafing all around with bad accuracy resulting their fighters rushing deep into opponent ship clusters (include me when had that strafing euphoria).

Your fighters will be more effective as one click to enemy squadron although it is strafing against you. You might lost 1 or 2 planes when approaching each other, but then the strafing squadron passing by and leave opponent fighters on their tail "strafing" on them.

Use strafing only to opponent fighters that locked in a dogfight, excel over your fighters, and your engaging squadron is at nearly perish. The other use of strafing is for opponent striking squadrons who running away from you.

Please note: every time you strafing, you will lose 1 fighter as the cost (except for Saipan, strafing has no cost).

If you are on a T6 USN CV, try to avoid your fighters direct clash with IJN fighters, unless the IJN uses strike loadout that makes her only have 1 fighter squadron (T6 Ryujo). On T7 IJN CV even have 2 fighter squadrons on the strike load out setup, while the T7 USN CV: Ranger still have only 1 fighter squadron. When you are in the USN CV, engage opponent squadron when it is alone and has no back up to assist the dogfight.

On 7/6/2018 at 3:57 PM, Ironside1 said:

Tier 6.. everyones AA just gets so much better, and I'm fine with that it means I can bait enemies into more effective AA fire, but my torpedo bombers seem to die incredibly fast, despite having the extra 75% HP from the commander skill, my dive bombers seem to survive no problem. Just flying anywhere near any kind of enemy ship gets my planes utterly destroyed. 

From T6 above, ships averagely have better AA. The knowledge you should know is: which ship is a prey, and which ship that must be avoided all the time. Don't bother to bomb an Atlanta, Kutuzov, or Baltimore although they are in an appealing position.

For some other ships with average AA power, you can just send all your striking squadron to sink her (if it is really necessary - gather all of your striker squadron on a spot and then send them all together at once. The expectation is they reach the target all together at the same time). You will lose one to four planes but you will manage to deliver a blow.

The most important point is: you should determine which one to kill first and which one to kill later. Avoid ships that could contribute loss to your planes at early game to keep your damage power steady to the end of the game. Aim for helpless ships with weak AA first. You might want to slam a DD first if you are good in cross dropping torpedoes . It will contribute much to the team.

On 7/6/2018 at 3:57 PM, Ironside1 said:

Should I bother continuing with the American CV line? It's doing nothing but make me rage 60% of the time, half of it is "git gud" the other half seems to be RNG, and if the IJN CVs are outrightly superior, I'd prefer to just play them while I'm still semi-learning.

Continue it. The effort is really rewarding. You will learn a lot from your defeat. Do not give up.

Additionally, try to do scenario battles that changes every week. Some of if will give you reward as: 10 skills Commander which you can use to lead your main vessel.

[icy_phoenix]

Then you get this USN CV guy who tops a t8 MM with an Independence out of all things.

USN CVs aren't trash, probably just require a much better player at the controls. Not a beginner friendly CV line. But what do I know about CV play, I avoid them like plague.

[Ironside1]

I think I'm done with WOWS, why bother if I'm only up against P2W CVs with every advantage imagineable. Might come back after the rework to see how things are. Nothing but Premium CV's, 6 games in a row and they've got more fighters in the air, and more torp bombers. The Ranger is just legitimately bad, I can't cover my own ships, I can't cover my own bombers, I can't cover my own carrier. It's not worth playing. There's no versatility and it has no strengths compared to the other CV's.

[S4pp3R]

3 hours ago, Ironside1 said:

I think I'm done with WOWS, why bother if I'm only up against P2W CVs with every advantage imagineable. Might come back after the rework to see how things are. Nothing but Premium CV's, 6 games in a row and they've got more fighters in the air, and more torp bombers. The Ranger is just legitimately bad, I can't cover my own ships, I can't cover my own bombers, I can't cover my own carrier. It's not worth playing. There's no versatility and it has no strengths compared to the other CV's.

I hate being right sometimes...

Seriously why not give other ships a go?

Stillmy clan has lost a few 'CV only' players for similar reasons and at exactly the same tier (I wonder why WG!???)

Prem CVs ---- big mistake and trust me, we of the community told them at the time...

[icy_phoenix]

5 minutes ago, S4pp3R said:

Prem CVs ---- big mistake and trust me, we of the community told them at the time...

Naaaah, let CV fanbois and whales test and balance CVs, what could go wrong - WG.

.... well, that's how Graf Zeppelin happened. Take feedback from incompetent players, make everything OP for the real players.

[Thyaliad]

I count myself lucky that I grinded past the tier 7 and 8 CVs back when there were no Premium CVs except for Saipan.

6 hours ago, icy_phoenix said:

Naaaah, let CV fanbois and whales test and balance CVs, what could go wrong - WG.

.... well, that's how Graf Zeppelin happened. Take feedback from incompetent players, make everything OP for the real players.

Not only that, they also ignored the good CV players and instead take feedback from the potatoes.

 

[DFaultPlayR69]

Tbh, I only play my tier6 Independence. I can still play very well against Ryujo unless he uses AS Loadout (seioriously, who does that?!). Playing Ranger is a nightmare, because Saipan and Kaga exists, and at tier8, Lexington is up against Graf Zeppelin, and even Shokaku can beat you.

I'm just hoping WG's rework on CV would make them fun to play again so that I can enjoy CVs and actually give purpose to have AA build on my ships.

[S4pp3R]

6 hours ago, DFaultPlayR69 said:

Tbh, I only play my tier6 Independence. I can still play very well against Ryujo unless he uses AS Loadout (seioriously, who does that?!). Playing Ranger is a nightmare, because Saipan and Kaga exists, and at tier8, Lexington is up against Graf Zeppelin, and even Shokaku can beat you.

I'm just hoping WG's rework on CV would make them fun to play again so that I can enjoy CVs and actually give purpose to have AA build on my ships.

Anyone who wants to win... AS Ryujo is meta...

The problem with playing it is that it isn't fun and relies on your team for kills which means your XP returns are no where near as good...

If you see any CV in T6 ranked that isn't an AS Ryujo, the CV player is either extremely pro (highly unlikely) or has no idea about CB meta...

[Puggsley]

On 7/10/2018 at 1:46 PM, Ironside1 said:

I think I'm done with WOWS, why bother if I'm only up against P2W CVs with every advantage imagineable. Might come back after the rework to see how things are. Nothing but Premium CV's, 6 games in a row and they've got more fighters in the air, and more torp bombers. The Ranger is just legitimately bad, I can't cover my own ships, I can't cover my own bombers, I can't cover my own carrier. It's not worth playing. There's no versatility and it has no strengths compared to the other CV's.

Mate maybe give the DDs a go before you make a decision based on CVs. The IJN DDs are pretty much like an E25....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHNpFfAFQTE

I had years in WoT and liked playing LTs/MTs. If you understand spotting and map control DDs are a nice place to start. A lot of the map control and vision control skills are pretty well directly transferable. I'm still very much a learner (still learning about getting good gunnery damage in DD) but regularly break 100k spotting in my Kagero, my best spotting is over 210k, best damage is 178K. Just broken 50% WR and heading in the right direction.

 

[Tutorial_Target]

On 7/6/2018 at 3:57 PM, Ironside1 said:

Tier 6.. everyone AA just gets so much better, and I'm fine with that it means I can bait enemies into more effective AA fire, but my torpedo bombers seem to die incredibly fast, despite having the extra 75% HP from the commander skill, my dive bombers seem to survive no problem. Just flying anywhere near any kind of enemy ship gets my planes utterly destroyed. 

Welcome to Wargaming number generator where the chance your planes going down depends on RNG. There's one time my whole torpedo squadron got shot down by lone Queen Elizabeth whose constantly getting shelled by 2 of our cruisers.

 

and 75% HP from commander skill? Don't tell me you waste 1 point for "Evasive Manuevers". It only affects when the squadrons are returning to the carrier though.