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I just played a game with my T8 T7 Myoko and encountered the premium Soviet T9 cruiser Kronshtadt. I can't believe what just happened.

 

I shot this ship multiple times broadside with 203mm AP shells. Distances varied from 14km right down to 10km. My shells either shattered or ricocheted. A small percentage of shells did normal penetration damage. No citadels.

The enemy Kronshtadt made zero attempt to angle itself and happily shredded my full health highly angled Myoko with impunity, it's AP shells ripping right through my Myoko (even when angled at less than 30 degrees).

 

IJN CA's are meant to have the biggest guns in the game in so far as cruisers are concerned. It is utterly ridiculous that a Myoko can rain AP hell upon a lazy broadside cruiser several times (and that's the keyword I'd like to emphasise: cruiser)  and do absolutely bugger all damage. Most shells couldn't even do normal pen damage, the armor on a perfect broadside was so thick that the 203mm AP mostly shattered or bounced. Crazy!

 

If WG want the Kronshtadt to be impervious to AP fire from other cruisers, then WG should classify Kronshtadt as a battleship (just like other battlecruisers like in the IJN BB tech tree).

 

What an absolute cheat ship. Being outplayed is one thing, but false representations is another. Having a so-called cruiser show perfect broadside at close/medium range and multiple times shrug off virtually all damage from heavy 203mm AP cruiser guns is beyond belief.

 

Now I have to memorise that Kronshtadt is not a cruiser but a battleship in disguise that cannot be citadelled when broadside. It's ridiculous. We're not talking T10 Yamato here, we're talking about an alleged cruiser in the same tier bracket as my Myoko. The German Graf Spee is a "pocket battleship" cruiser which has a half cruiser and half battleship personality, but it will take citadel damage if the captain presents a broadside. But I guess because the Graf Spee is German that's the difference.

WG loves to create these Soviet vessels with magical powers. We get it guys. You're patriotic. But calling the Kronshtadt a cruiser is a sick joke. Honestly I'd love to have a cruiser which can rip through heavily angled targets with its guns and cannot be penetrated broadside by other cruisers no matter how stupid I am. It must take a "tremendous" amount of skill to pilot a cruiser with magical powers like that.

Talk about a troll ship.

/rant

Edited by coldsteelfury

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Is cruiser comrade!

In reality, it doesn't matter what a ship is classed as, you need to know it's strengths and weaknesses if you want to be successful against it. If you continue to do something that doesn't work (firing AP at the main belt and shattering), then it's on you.  If it was a BB that was giving you broadside, you should also be firing AP once you've got it burning, even in a CL (or KM DD).  You shoot at the base of the superstructure, and enjoy your huge AP salvos.

On a related note, I'm absolutely loving the Kronshtadt, those guns are superb.  It will happily citadel broadside BB's at max range.  Lots of overpens though with the standard fusing and high velocity.

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7 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

Is cruiser comrade!

Yea, going to disagree with you there. In my humble opinion, it's a battleship/battlecruiser sailing under false cruiser colours.

 

7 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

In reality, it doesn't matter what a ship is classed as, you need to know it's strengths and weaknesses if you want to be successful against it. If you continue to do something that doesn't work (firing AP at the main belt and shattering), then it's on you.  If it was a BB that was giving you broadside, you should also be firing AP once you've got it burning, even in a CL (or KM DD).  You shoot at the base of the superstructure, and enjoy your huge AP salvos.

I completely agree. Knowing enemy ships strengths and weaknesses is vital. I won't make that mistake again.

I still think it is utterly ridiculous that the IJN CA line, which is renowned for having the biggest CA guns in the game, cannot damage another so-called cruiser broadside. I'm not talking zero citadel here, I'm talking near zero damage. The idea that a Myoko has to use 203mm AP to target the superstructure of another cruiser at 10km - 14km in order to inflict damage is the definition of insanity. We're not talking Akizuki here with 100mm pea shooters, we're talking a Myoko with 203mm AP.

 

7 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

On a related note, I'm absolutely loving the Kronshtadt, those guns are superb.  It will happily citadel broadside BB's at max range.  Lots of overpens though with the standard fusing and high velocity.

Yup, I'm sure it's lots of fun catching out people like myself. I fundamentally think there is something wrong when a Kronshtadt cruiser captain can show full broadside and not be punished for it. It's very odd. Rewards very bad gameplay.

Edited by coldsteelfury

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17 minutes ago, coldsteelfury said:

I fundamentally think there is something wrong when a Kronshtadt cruiser captain can show full broadside and not be punished for it. It's very odd. Rewards very bad gameplay.

They will be punished for it - first time I encountered one I fired a salvo from my Missouri at ~15km which landed around its stern, but still scored a citadel. I remember thinking they might not be as strong as I thought they would be.

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1 minute ago, Moldavia said:

They will be punished for it - first time I encountered one I fired a salvo from my Missouri at ~15km which landed around its stern, but still scored a citadel. I remember thinking they might not be as strong as I thought they would be.

Of course. A high tier battleship will always punish broadside. But that's pretty extreme situation. I mean if your Missouri didn't punish broadside, what would?

I'm more referring to other cruisers. Kronshtadt can show broadside to other cruisers and absolutely not care whilst it shreds them to pieces. Very very odd ability for a so called fellow cruiser.

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6 minutes ago, coldsteelfury said:

Of course. A high tier battleship will always punish broadside. But that's pretty extreme situation. I mean if your Missouri didn't punish broadside, what would?

I'm more referring to other cruisers. Kronshtadt can show broadside to other cruisers and absolutely not care whilst it shreds them to pieces. Very very odd ability for a so called fellow cruiser.

But you'd be unlikely to fare much better against a Hipper or a Roon under the same conditions if you kept firing at the waterline.

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46 minutes ago, coldsteelfury said:

I still think it is utterly ridiculous that the IJN CA line, which is renowned for having the biggest CA guns in the game, cannot damage another so-called cruiser broadside. I'm not talking zero citadel here, I'm talking near zero damage. The idea that a Myoko has to use 203mm AP to target the superstructure of another cruiser at 10km - 14km in order to inflict damage is the definition of insanity. We're not talking Akizuki here with 100mm pea shooters, we're talking a Myoko with 203mm AP.

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say 'renowned for having the biggest CA guns in the game'.  This is patently untrue.  The Moskva has 220mm, the Henri has 240mm, even the Yorck has 210mm guns - not to mention the Spee with 283's and the new Russian cruisers with 305's.  203's are stock standard heavy cruiser guns.  The IJN brand of 203's are actually known for their excellent HE shells.

 

Yup, I'm sure it's lots of fun catching out people like myself. I fundamentally think there is something wrong when a Kronshtadt cruiser captain can show full broadside and not be punished for it. It's very odd. Rewards very bad gameplay.

So you shot at the wrong spot and didn't do any damage, where you could have shot at the right spot and done a ton of damage.  I honestly can't see what you are complaining about.

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13 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say 'renowned for having the biggest CA guns in the game'.  This is patently untrue.  The Moskva has 220mm, the Henri has 240mm, even the Yorck has 210mm guns - not to mention the Spee with 283's and the new Russian cruisers with 305's.  203's are stock standard heavy cruiser guns.  The IJN brand of 203's are actually known for their excellent HE shells.

Fair point. However IJN CAs get 203mm before anyone else and before other nations came onto the scene, IJN cruisers did have big guns. It's a characteristic of all IJN BBs and CAs.... squishy but great guns. Though as time has moved on, that character of biggest guns has been blurred as you point out. (I mean they gave defensive fire to destroyers for goodness sake! DF is what made cruisers, cruisers.)

 

13 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

So you shot at the wrong spot and didn't do any damage, where you could have shot at the right spot and done a ton of damage.  I honestly can't see what you are complaining about.

No, I think you're making a big assumption, my aim was good and I saw where the shells landed. It wasn't just one broadside salvo, it was multiple and they all had similar effects: shatters and ricochets against the belt armor along the side of the vessel. That shell behaviour isn't due to my aiming being off. It's due to this ship being impervious to 203mm AP. Any other cruiser would've been wasted or taken heavy damage.

If your point is that I should've aimed my 203mm AP at the superstructure instead, then maybe you've got a point but it'd be a waste of time... I maneuver into a tactically superior position to reveal his broadside so I can fire AP at his superstructure before he turns around and shreds me through my angled armor? No thank you. I'd rather keep range and spam HE. Safer and more effective. And precisely what I'll do next time.

 

Edited by coldsteelfury

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ijn ca has huge citadel. angling doesnt work. the armor gets pen by everything except dd. turret rotation is bad. playing behind islands disadvatageous due to flat gun trajectory. idk maybe it got powercrept as i did had more fun using them last time

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2 hours ago, coldsteelfury said:

IJN CA's are meant to have the biggest guns in the game in so far as cruisers are concerned. It is utterly ridiculous that a Myoko can rain AP hell upon a lazy broadside cruiser several times (and that's the keyword I'd like to emphasise: cruiser)  and do absolutely bugger all damage. Most shells couldn't even do normal pen damage, the armor on a perfect broadside was so thick that the 203mm AP mostly shattered or bounced. Crazy!

:Smile_amazed: Um Ok. According to who? Many heavy cruisers from USN, German and French line all share same 203mm gun size as IJN CA. Not sure what you mean by IJN are meant to have the biggest guns for cruisers? Because they didn't in real life and therefore don't in game. T7 German cruiser Yorck with 210mm guns. Never heard of the Henri IV French cruiser with 240mm guns? Moskva with 220mm guns. Or Kronshtadt and Stalingrad with 305 mm guns?

What the ship is called or classed as is completely irrelevant. What matter is what armour the ship has. Cruiser is a class of ship it does not meant every ship is identical. If you are hitting the armour belt and it is too thick for you to pen then aim elsewhere. If you keep aiming at the same spot where you have not dealt any damage and keep expecting a different result................... :Smile_facepalm:

BTW some IJN AP shells are not fantastic. Not aware of any problems with the Myoko's 8" shells but this is actually historically accurate as the IJN had many AP shell designs that were old pre WW2 designs and pretty terrible in penetrating power. Look at Ishizuchi, Ashitaka and Mutsu. Their AP shells suck in game because they did in real life. Just because you were firing AP at something that was showing some side does not mean AP is an instant win button.

2 hours ago, coldsteelfury said:

I just played a game with my T8 T7 Myoko and encountered the premium Soviet T9 cruiser Kronshtadt. I can't believe what just happened.

I shot this ship multiple times broadside with 203mm AP shells. Distances varied from 14km right down to 10km. My shells either shattered or ricocheted. A small percentage of shells did normal penetration damage. No citadels.

The enemy Kronshtadt made zero attempt to angle itself and happily shredded my full health highly angled Myoko with impunity, it's AP shells ripping right through my Myoko (even when angled at less than 30 degrees).

Kronshtadt does have a very decent 230mm main armour belt. It extends above and below the waterline and extends well past the turrets fore and aft. It is a very well armoured ship for a large cruiser in terms of its main belt. This main belt will be very trollish against 6" and 8" shells when minimally angled and still effective against much larger shells when heavily angled.

If you aim above the main belt near the main deck line and superstructure, as well as fore and aft of the main belt where the amour is only 25mm you will always deal reliable damage.

As a Kronshtadt owner I can assure you she is not as strong as you might believe from your experience being bottom tier. When facing same and higher tier opponents she takes damage from everywhere as the armour belt does not really cover the shortcoming of 25mm plating all over. Her strength comes from her health pool and the ability to bait shots onto your belt when angled. If they hit your deck or superstructure even when angled you take big damage every time.

Her guns are also a mixed blessing as they over pen everything unless perfectly aimed. I have started to aim ever so slightly lower on broadside targets to actually hit the water before penetrating the ship, to arm the shells slightly earlier. I am now getting way more citadels and less overpens. Happy days. :Smile_glasses:

Edited by HobartAWD

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4 hours ago, coldsteelfury said:

I still think it is utterly ridiculous that the IJN CA line, which is renowned for having the biggest CA guns in the game

Since when? Most IJN cruisers have 203mm guns. HIV and Moskva both have bigger guns than Zao. Krons has a pretty thick belt so I wouldn't try to shoot at its citadel with 203mm guns unless close range

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Just saying, only Furutaka has exceptionally big guns for her tier when it comes to IJN CAs and it's simply because nothing else at T5 has an 8" gun. By Tier 6/7, 8" guns or larger on cruisers are common. For 8" guns, the Furutaka 20cm/50 actually does not have exceptionally good performance, even for an 8" gun and you're stuck with it all the way. Even Ibuki has the exact same weapon.

You will find the American 8"/55 models all have better penetration and penetration angles, for example, and the German 20.3cm/60 SK C/34 you see from T8 and up also has better performance. Only Zaō with the longer 20cm/55 has good gun penetration among IJN cruisers.

Moskva and Henri IV both have bigger guns than the IJN cruisers. Even the 21cm guns on tier 7 Yorck are larger calibre (but arguably worse performing).

 

I'd say if you think IJN cruisers are well known for the biggest and most powerful guns, you're misinformed.

 

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While we can all see the armour profile in port (even if you don't own Kronshtadt), the penetration capabilities of guns are unavailable in-game. Here's Myoukou's 203mm penetration curve:

Ridrntd.png

You'll need to be quite a bit closer than 10km to penetrate Kronshtadt's 230mm belt.

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This Kronshtadt, with everything I've seen on it, almost seamlessly fits into a Battlecruiser mould doesn't it? Why can't it be classed under it's proper title?

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1 hour ago, ArtickWarspite said:

This Kronshtadt, with everything I've seen on it, almost seamlessly fits into a Battlecruiser mould doesn't it? Why can't it be classed under it's proper title?

Not exactly. At Tier 9, 305mm guns aren't really Battleship calibre anymore since they can't even overmatch ordinary Tier 8 Cruiser plating (25mm). Essentially, they're very much like Moskva guns that simply hit harder, but reload slower.

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46 minutes ago, Unraveler said:

Not exactly. At Tier 9, 305mm guns aren't really Battleship calibre anymore since they can't even overmatch ordinary Tier 8 Cruiser plating (25mm). Essentially, they're very much like Moskva guns that simply hit harder, but reload slower.

Kronshtadt's guns completely overmatched T7 Myoko armor. So she does overmatch other ships within her own +/- 3 tier bracket (although not T8 and T9, as you point out, only T7). I still think she is more battlecruiser than cruiser, especially with her ultimate trollface side armor which shatters 203mm AP. And the spelling of her name is trollface as well, as I have to copy and paste every time I want to mention her.

Even bottom tiered battleship T8 Amagi can penetrate + citadel the biggest and ugliest battleship in the game, T10 Yamato, if Yamato presents broadside (I know as I've done it). It takes some special doing for a so called cruiser to have an even better side armor than Yamato for her class: i.e. when cruiser T9 Kronshtadt is facing off against other cruisers in her T7 - T9 tier bracket, most cruisers will have 203mm and will be unable to penetrate Kronshtadt's broadside... let alone citadel her.

Kronshtadt is clearly a ship that needs to be taken down by a fellow battleship. Most cruisers will simply have to treat her like a battleship and spam 203mm HE to be effective against her. Lol. Cruiser. :Smile_trollface:

No point firing 203mm AP at her if the only viable targets are her upper decks + I'm running AP shell shatter risk if my aim is even slightly off + her the citadels are out of reach. Very very battlecruiser-ish. As for her guns being on the smaller side for a true battleship, I guess even WG had to balance out their Russian lovechild somehow. Thank goodness for small mercies.

 

Interesting point though about 25mm bow armor. Now I know my Mogami can point her nose at Kronshtadt, if she has to, and not get shredded.

Edited by coldsteelfury

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Yeah, the belt is definitely strong in a Cruiser vs Cruiser engagement. Although, some fare better than others - here's a list of the range required to achieve 230mm penetration of various Tier 9+ Cruisers:

22 km - Moskva

21 km - Henri IV

14 km - Zao

12 km - Buffalo (and Baltimore, Des Moines)

10 km - Roon (and Admiral Hipper, Hindenburg)

10 km - Dmitri Donskoi

  9 km - Saint-Louis (and Charles Martel)

  8 km - Ibuki (and Myoukou, Mogami 203mm)

  5 km - Mogami 155mm

  4 km - Chapayev (and Mikhail Kutuzov)

  4 km - Neptune (and Minotaur)

  3 km - Cleveland

 

Edit: Added a few more ships.

Edited by Unraveler

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Kronshtadt is clearly a battlecruiser, and they've decided to use that to put it as a cruiser in game.  In most respects though, she is quite clearly a BB.  She honestly feels in all respects exactly like a fast battleship, very similar to Amagi or Missouri.

Having said that, there are other ships in the game that don't really fit into their class (Khaba comes to mind).  That makes for some slight imbalances in the MM, but the important point is whether the ship is balanced, and the class is irrelevant to that discussion.  For the Kronk, I'd have to say she's a little OP.  The strengths of the ship (guns and effective health) aren't quite as balanced with the weaknesses (huge and unwieldy, standard BB dispersion) as they should be.  Having said that, I've heard plenty of people say they think the ship isn't very good.  I can't imagine what they expect from the ship that they aren't getting, but it's a common opinion.  Kronshtadt is running at about 59% win rate atm (that's the highest win rate of any generally available ship from tiers 7-10), but it should come down to Musashi levels (Musashi being pretty OP itself) once more people get it.

I've certainly had a lot of fun in the ship, those long range BB citadels never get old, and it's definitely a ship you can have a large impact on the game in.

Here's a clip I thought was entertaining, was sailing it in a cyclone yesterday and managed to do over 60k damage between radar and minimap blind fire without being spotted for the whole duration of the cyclone.  Kronk seems particularly well suited to this.

https://streamable.com/8jtus

 

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2 minutes ago, coldsteelfury said:

Kronshtadt's guns completely overmatched T7 Myoko armor. She does overmatch other ships within her own +/- 3 tier bracket. I still think she is more battlecruiser than battleship.

Interesting point though. Now I know my Mogami can point her nose at Kronshtadt and not get shredded.

Kronshtadt and also the Stalingrad are both battlecruisers, no need to wonder about it at all. The entire game features simplified classes of ships to make the tech trees easier to implement and to follow. The game is full of Battlecruisers called Battleships and Cruisers which are really Battlecruisers. 

Like I said in my previous post what the ships are called is pretty irrelevant, you need to look at the ships armour scheme. Also knowing how to handle any ship based on its strengths and weaknesses helps. Charging into battle and getting wrecked while dealing little damage in return gets old very quickly. 

From the overmatch calculation anything with 22mm or better of bow and stern plating will be able to angle effectively against 305mm guns. Myoko with 16mm is in trouble but Mogami with 25mm is ok. 

To be honest there is very little at T8, 9 and 10 that does not have at least 25mm plating. DD and RN CL being the obvious exception. Yes 305 mm will overmatch ships but there are not very many that the Kronshtadt sees other than T7 ships. Being 2 tiers higher this is nothing special and many ships will over match when top tier in the +/- 2 MM spread.

 

8 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

Kronshtadt is running at about 59% win rate atm (that's the highest win rate of any generally available ship from tiers 7-10), but it should come down to Musashi levels (Musashi being pretty OP itself) once more Potatoes get it.

Fixed that for you :Smile-_tongue:

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