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MaxiMooseKnuckle

Is the Admiral Graf Spree enjoyable ?

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Gday all,

As a returning player I would like to know a little about the Graf Spree from other players point of view. I mainly enjoy the Battle Ships and don't mind the Cruisers. I would like to pick up a lower tiered Prem and the Admiral has caught my eye. Any constructive feedback will be appreciated.

Cheers Maxi.

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[LNA]
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The owners of the biggest stick around town is well deserved. IT IS VERY FUN to play , albeit it require you to play a hybrid ship which own battlecruiser guns on a cruiser platform ( read dont manfight). It is primarily a citadel and anti cruiser hunter , and do fairly poorly against other class.

 

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51 minutes ago, MaxiMooseKnuckle said:

Gday all,

As a returning player I would like to know a little about the Graf Spree from other players point of view. I mainly enjoy the Battle Ships and don't mind the Cruisers. I would like to pick up a lower tiered Prem and the Admiral has caught my eye. Any constructive feedback will be appreciated.

Cheers Maxi.

Well what you need to know is the Spee is a very specialised ship.

It has battleship guns on a cruiser hull. You specialise in dealing high damage alpha strikes against broadside cruisers, and not much else.

Unlike other cruisers you do not have good DPM, so you are not going to be farming damage off BBs or trying to hunt DDs. What you want to do is to put yourself in a position where you can citadel the broadsides of unsuspecting cruisers.

As such, the Spee is very affected by matchmaking. If your game has a lot of enemy cruisers, you will do well. If there are a lot of BBs or DDs, you may have a hard time making an impact.

But overall the Spee is definitely a unique ship, though fun or not depends on the MM.

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Super Tester
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Isn't the question a bit too subjective. I don't like her cause for me, cruiser is all about DPM.

She has her strong points, which are survival, heal, torpedo angles, gun calibers... punishing broadside cruisers...

Then again, she is bad at pretty much everything else.

I got her for free, so no complains in the end.

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[SIF]
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I'm in the same boat ( pardon the pun) as Icy.  I won my Graf so it doesn't really matter if it its in port.   You could look at it that she is a cruiser with big guns and decent torps and heal which make her pretty formidable or you could look at her as a Cruiser that is essentially missing the core feature of DPM as mentioned.  Its a niche ship which really hasn't been able to influence the game too much and there are better options in the KM premium line.  The Scharnhorst or Tirpitz are far better ships and play like heavy cruisers.  More guns, more armour, heal, torps, just slower. 

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I personally do enjoy the Graf Spee. As other said, she is a fairly unique ship. If you will enjoy this kind of ship, how could I know?

She is definitely not a scaled down Scharnhorst like a Hipper/Prince Eugen are scaled down Tirpitzes.

She sits somewhere between battleship and cruiser with heavier guns and armour, fast and manoeuvrable compared to a BB, slow-ish compared to the cruisers she is meant to hunt.

If you have the right targets at the right distance, you can do decent damage with your 11-inch guns. If your 11-inch guns connect with the citadel of a cruiser, you do huge damage or kill the enemy ship. But you have only 6 guns and when several salvos straddle your target at longer ranges without doing any damage, that can be frustrating.

Also, don’t let DDs get near. She has strong secondaries compared to cruisers, but not strong enough to effective defend against DDs.

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I think it's a pretty fun ship. Decent survivabilty and maneuverability, pretty decent torpedoes, and fairly good guns.

You can't really be a front line ship against BBs cause they will eat you for breakfast, but if they offer a broadside you can hit some BBs very hard. It has the best survivability of cruisers at T6, so you can fight toe to toe with most cruisers and delete them if they offer broadside. It's not so good at dealing with DDs because there aren't enough guns and the RoF is low comparatively.

It has some pretty decent AA if you set it up right, and it can take defensive fire. Combined with her tight turning circle and ok-ish rudder shift and CVs shouldn't be a big problem. You can't escort others with your AA, but it's good for self defense.

It depends what you compare the guns to as to what you'll think. Compared to BB guns they fire faster, are slightly more accurate but weaker alpha/penetration. Compared to cruiser guns they fire slower, are less accurate but stronger alpha/penetration. A downside in general is she has few guns (only 6) and you can only fire three in the forward arc. You can still be quite angled when firing the aft turret forward, but you have to be careful not to show too much side.

I quite like to use it in scenario mode, bots show their side so much more, you can easily wreck many ships quite quickly. The decent AA comes in handy as does the torpedoes. The larger calibre guns are quite handy in Killer whale where you can take out the forts almost as well as a BB can. I know others don't like ships with lower RoF in scenario mode, but the Spee just works quite well for me.

Although I think it is a fun ship, I'd say Scharnhorst is still a better KM premium. The Spee has a much lower price tag however, so I can totally understand choosing it over the much more expensive ship.

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21 hours ago, Sparcie said:

I quite like to use it in scenario mode, bots show their side so much more, you can easily wreck many ships quite quickly. The decent AA comes in handy as does the torpedoes. The larger calibre guns are quite handy in Killer whale where you can take out the forts almost as well as a BB can. I know others don't like ships with lower RoF in scenario mode, but the Spee just works quite well for me

I quite like Spee in scenarios and I have seen players who got top XP with her, never managed that myself.

 In operations, when the low tier cruisers like Kuma show broadside, you see them one-shotted regularly. Also against BB’s, you can get so close it would be suicidal in Random, but in Operations you get away with it to kill BB’s.

21 hours ago, Sparcie said:

Although I think it is a fun ship, I'd say Scharnhorst is still a better KM premium. The Spee has a much lower price tag however, so I can totally understand choosing it over the much more expensive ship.

1

The Scharnhorst really is a big step up from the Spee in every department, except the shorter range torpedos.

 I guess the Spee is for T6 operations, Scharnhorst for T7.

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As someone whose first premium ship purchase is the Admiral Graf Spee, here are my takes on what's good and what's not about this ship:

 

What's good:

-283mm guns are ridiculously good at alpha-strike damage. Watching a cruiser's health go down by the 1/2s or more via citadel strikes are very entertaining.

-For a cruiser, it's incredibly tough. At 39400 hit points it is by far the toughest cruiser of it's tier, not to mention it comes with Repair Party which gives it even more durability. Armor-wise, while I'm not very good on armor values and all that, 100mm of belt armor is no joke at Tier 6; properly angled Graf Spee can tank cruiser fire all day (even heavy cruiser AP is no guarantee of punching through the belt) and with the Cleveland out of the picture with its move to T8 it is the toughest T6 cruiser. Its torpedo protection is also quite good for a cruiser, at 24%.

-Torpedoes! Graf Spee gets torpedoes mounted in quad launchers astern. Their placement, while giving the arcs a rearward bias, allows the Graf Spee excellent torpedo launch angles. The torpedoes themselves are fast (65knots), decently ranged (at 8km) and deal a lot of damage (inbetween the 12-14k values iirc). I've claimed a New York and a North Carolina as ships that I torpedoed from close range (ambushing both of course, and I even punctuated the NC kill with a chat message that "cool guys don't look at explosions"). Their 8km range exceeds the stereotypical 6km range of German cruiser torpedoes,  which can surprise people. If you want more fun, Torpedo Acceleration reduces the range of torpedoes to 6.4km but launches them at a breakneck 70knots (and 68+ knots torpedoes are pretty hilarious imo)

-Forgiving in terms of crew skills. While I don't have Graf Zeppelin to test a CV-build commander in the Spee, I've stuck my T-22 commander, a Nurnberg commander and a dedicated Graf Spee commander (that came with the ship) and while some skills work better than others on the German behemoth-of-a-cruiser, Graf Spee doesn't suffer a significant loss of performance with any of the commanders. Contrast this with the Atlanta for example, which does need a captain tailored to its strengths and weaknesses and cannot work well without a captain like that.

-Decent AA defense. While nowhere near the formerly-T6 Cleveland or the Texas (a tier lower) in terms of shooting down aircraft, Graf Spee can hold her own against aircraft, especially since you get to take Defensive Fire (though you give up Hydroacoustic Search to take it) and the Graf Spee has Catapult Fighter which can spot ships/torpedoes and mess up dive bombers/torpedo bombers' accuracy. Also, since the Graf Spee relies more on dual-purpose guns for its aerial defense, it's able to keep it's AA teeth for longer than cruisers that relied on low-caliber autocannons (40mm and below) and their variants.

 

What's not:

-Huge and appropriately seen from space. Detected at 12.7km (base value) from the surface and 8.4km from the air, Graf Spee isn't very sneaky especially for a cruiser. Concealment Expert is very useful in this.

-Rather unreliable gunnery on main guns; it suffers from a bit of a dispersion problem, and as a result firing with only one turret in my opinion is not worth it (unless you're bow-tanking). Citadel strikes aren't always guaranteed; sometimes you only penetrate without causing citadel damage while other times they fail to do damage because they shatter/bounce off/overpenetrate. HE and fire-setting falls behind with the reload of 20s despite the high fire-per-shell chance. 

-Secondaries a bit too short ranged despite the rather impressive array it has. This, combined with main battery issues, leaves her vulnerable to destroyers (although whoever gets hit by the Spee's 283mm shells will feel it in the morning).

-Slow. At only 28.5 knots, Graf Spee is by far the slowest cruiser at tier 6, and within its matchmaking spread (I think) is the only cruiser incapable of reaching 30 knots. Then again, that armor and huge, heavy guns do not do a lot of favors.

-Fires on the Graf Spee burn for 45s, longer than cruiser-standard 30s but not as long as the 60s of battleships.

-Its too easy to think you're a battleship with a "cruiser" designation, and while Graf Spee does approach a battleship in firepower and durability, playing like a battleship tends to get you killed and easily so. Graf Spee can still get citadeled by battleships with alarming ease. Beware of battleships with many guns (Fuso, Normandie, Oktabryshkaya Revolutsya, Arizona, pretty much any battleship with 10 or more guns) or giant ones (Nagato [and by extension her sister Mutsu], Amagi [and by extension Ashitaka], Roma, pretty much any battleship with 380mm guns or bigger); in fact beware of battleships in general and if neccesary fight dirty by ambushing them with torps (like I did to a North Carolina last night), ganging up on them or using hit-and-run (just make sure you can outrun him).

 

In my opinion, Graf Spee is one of the best premiums, price-for-performance wise. As someone with an unusual and often really weird playstyle, the Graf Spee's unusual characteristics do not bother me that much. In fact, out of the 375000 free EXP I will need for the Nelson, 235000 is already in the Graf Spee. If you can get past the weird gameplay, Graf Spee will take you for a ride (no innuendo intended).

 


@PeterMoe1963: Scharnhorst is one of my most coveted premiums, and had it not been for the Premium Shop giving tempting offers of fancy premiums I would have bought the doubloons that I need to get it. It's got that nice mix of historical value, uniqueness and competitiveness.

Edited by TD1

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Is watching the shells landing anywhere but where you're aiming is fun to you?

If your answer is yes, then go ahead and buy.

For fun play, yes. Unique play, yes. But lacks the consistency.

Got both spee and scharnhorst. fun for the first month then the gun inconsistencies became too frustrating to ignore.

 

I'd take molotov over spee any day.

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^^ What he said.

In addition, if the price is right, it can be a nice gateway to T6 class battles if you're grinding away in the lower tiers, as you can get nice XP to convert and upgrade your current lines, plus you get to train captains from other KM ships for free. The big bonus is geting access to scenario battles and their bountiful lootz.

After playing other T6 cruisers made of paper such as Aoba and Nurnberg, can now appreciate the armour on the GS. Actually it makes an interesting comparison with Aoba, which is smaller, faster, fragile, stealthier; much harder to use torps; has the same no. rifles but higher DPM and useable HE.

Due to the slowish speed, I find I usually end up hanging out with BBs.

Edited by scottme

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Thnxs for the feedback folks much appreciated, alot better feedback than another forum. I bit the bullet and bought her. 3 games 2 losses and 1 win, 1 loss my own fault, the other loss I was surprised with her performance ( close game ) and the win well I didn't regret buying her. Found the Graf could be a good finisher if you can keep her kicking to the end. Its playstyle could be for the right player a playstyle where you don't over commit but pick your battles and make you think more. Once again cheers for the feedback.

Cheers Maxi.

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