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Brunswickz

About me, and French BB

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1. Who am i ?

I used to post using Zwelivelle before. This account originally is my friend's, so i didn't used this until recently. It was like 2 years waiting and he showed no interest to use the account to post in the forum or something.

Zwelivelle only had 10 battle record as minimum battle required to post something here, i've done that with 0 lose. At one game it was 6 vs 6, i killed 6. Sorry, im professional seal clubber.

2. French BB

I browsed about 2 pages at this General discussion and also about a page of Bug thread.

I think no one complained about French BB AP peculiarity.

I won Bretagne, tier V from crate before and i used her several times until 0.7.2 patch arrived.

I feel the AP is wonky than before ? (I still using 340mm, Bretagne and Normandie)

It overpens a lot, it shatters a lot, and sometimes do no damage.

Shot at DD overpen 950 dmg

Omaha, overpen 950 damage

North Carolina 15km, aimed at super structure, overpen 950 damage

North Carolina 0.2km (It was an attempt to ram), overpen 950 damage

North Carolina's aft lower section, shatters, deflects, 0.5km, well it is normal but i was want to make sure if there is some kind of anomaly.

North Carolina's belt upper section, shatters, deflects, 0.5km, normal ? Well angle was bad tho.

Fuso, 12km, perfect broadside, 1 pen 4 deflects, 4 shatters, 0 damage....

Some crusiers, 1 pen, 9 miss, 0 damage ????

New Mexico, aiming at superstructure, 14km, 1900 damage, 2 overpens, ??????? No plunging fire ?

Not always like this, sometimes it works just as expected but it sometimes trolling.

Did i shoot using Baguette ?

Honestly HE isn't appealing as well, damage output is horribad. Im pretty sure Furutaka or any random cruiser has 3 times better HE output than these using HE.

In fact i was downed 1 vs 1 by Yorck trying to duel only using HE as HP also probably the least at the class, rivaling RN BB. 41K HP at Bretagne. I even wondering if i used the B hull, and i did.

Edited by Brunswickz

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yes, Bretagne sux.... but KEEP GRINDING IT, you will get Lyon. after Lyon everything will be easier.

 

also GET ALSACE!!! SECONDAAARRRYYY!

Republique seems interesting though

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Honestly i love Normandie for its cruiser like handling. But 340mm guns always troll me.

I do believe Lyon has the same problem.

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[LBAS]
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34 minutes ago, Brunswickz said:

Honestly i love Normandie for its cruiser like handling. But 340mm guns always troll me.

I do believe Lyon has the same problem.

not much, same guns same shell but sigma is mess

 

Edited by MatterCore

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1 minute ago, MatterCore said:

not much, same guns same shell but sigma is mess

 

Well im talking about the trolling penetration.

Sigma...well we have experienced that with Fuso.

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[ANZAC]
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I kinda like the Bretagne, I found it pretty easy compared at least to the New York. Just don't compare it to the Iron Duke with that broken UK HE.

With those smaller calibre guns you HAVE to aim at superstructure on BBs. But you should see fewer AP over pens against cruisers. I do wonder if those 340mm guns need a slight ROF buff - maybe 28 seconds.

Like the OP I won the Bretagne in the crates, Im now at the Richelieu. Nearly unlocked the hull upgrade. 

Does anyone else feel that the WG dev's got drunk again and swapped the Lyon with the Richelieu? The Lyon has god tier AA, 16 guns salvos if you want to show your side. Richeliue, well it loses half the shell weight, half the AA. It gains speed and secondaries , but without torps do you really want to get  close?  The Lyon really feels like the stronger ship - at least in the T7 - 8 space. 

Looking forward to ending this bloody campaign.

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That's why I hate french fried sigma like 0.17 - 11111 :Smile_facepalm: 
They like a shotgun 

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Beta Tester
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I swear the more recent patch changed AP for BB's.

Giulo Cessare, firing at Cleveland 12km away full broadside. 6 overpens.

Lyon firing at fiji 14km away, full broadside, 8 overpens

Alsace firing at baltimore, 9km away, full broadside, 1 pen, 2 overpen.

 

It's like BB AP just overpens Cruisers now.

 

Buuuut.

I'm struck a Currywurst at 18km in my Alsace....citadel....

Tipritz at 15km, in Alsace, citadel.

I've noticed a lot more BB citadels at long ranges since the latest patch.

But even then I still get a shell that hits, shows as 'penetration'   0 dmg

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I've got the Bretagne and Normandie and haven't had significant issues with them.

The Normandie has in fact been quite strong for me each time I've played it, especially using AP against cruisers, but against BBs it does ok as well. If you feel you can't handle a situation it's fast enough to get away fairly quick. It's main weakness is poor armour, AA and firing arcs, so if you're greedy and show too much side you risk being citadelled, and CVs can eat you for breakfast. Normandie is similar in firepower to Fuso/New Mex with the exception of slightly smaller guns/penetration.

Bretagne is much like the New York with slightly better AA. It works pretty much the same.

Neither have particularly good dispersion, but they aren't bad compared to others at their respective tier either.

I've got a fair way to grind before I get to Lyon. So far they've been quite fun, and I've heard very good things about the T7-9 BBs from clan mates.

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13 hours ago, Brunswickz said:

Did i shoot using Baguette ?

You are not the only one comparing French artillery shells with baguette.

I have the French BB’s up to T7 Lyon, I played only Bretagne, Normandie and Lyon more than a couple of times. Still upgrading Lyon.

They all share the 340mm calibre, but after Bretagne, they get updated shells.

Bretagne: 340 mm AP OPf Mle 1924, 340 mm HE OEA Mle 1932
 

Normandie, 340 mm AP OPfK Mle 1930, 340 mm HE OEA Mle 1934

Lyon: 340 mm AP OPfK Mle 1930, 340 mm HE OEA Mle 1934 

I read somewhere the French AP shells are “light” and therefore lack impact. Not sure this applies to both old and new versions equally.

With French HE, fire starting chance is not good. I find that french DD Aigle can start fires easier and faster than the French BB’s.

It may be bad luck, but with no other BB, including KM, I have seen so many salvos straddle all around the target without zero damage. Frustrating.

900HP overpens are not unusual. Shatters, even when firing at cruisers, not unusual.

At short-ish range (10-12km) and broadside on, you can one-shot cruisers with French AP, no problem.

With Lyon, you have a 16 barrel salvo to compensate for the weak shells.

I cannot say that the French BB’s I have used are my favourites, and cannot say much positive about them, except for their speed. Up to Bretagne, typical dreadnaught 20-ish knot speed. However, Normandie goes 28 knots, with speed flag 29.5 knots. Lyon 27 knots. This means you can engage and disengage more easily, you can dodge incoming fire more efficiently.

I remember a battle where 3 enemy BBs charged our cap, I was the first defender to arrive in Normandie. I dodged in and out of the cover of islands, manoeuvred so I could engage one enemy BB’s, bu the other two had no line of fire. I also varied my speed, which threw the aim of those 3 BB’s off. I suffered little damage, killed one and heavily damaged the other two before the team arrived. I should say this was a T6 battle, most T5/T6 BBs go like 20 to 24 knots. When you take Normandie into a T7 or T8 battle, the speed is not that much of an advantage… or against a T5 Kongo.

Above T5, the French BB’s are balanced differently from other lines. They tend to have good speed and either a faster reload or a lot of barrels, but the damage from the individual shell/barrel is rather underwhelming. T6 and up French BB’s would be rather cruiser hunters if you ask me.

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This guy using New Mexico let me to take like 5 free shots to his ship, and he just repay it back in one salvo.

Use this to open my replays

https://na.wargaming.net/support/en/products/wows/articles/128/

Or directly this, if you know the instructions.

http://dl-wows-gc.wargaming.net/projects/mods/mods_pack/WoWS_Replays_Tool.exe

 

20180312_034448_PFSB106-Normandie_23_Shards.wowsreplay

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9 hours ago, PeterMoe1963 said:

You are not the only one comparing French artillery shells with baguette.

I have the French BB’s up to T7 Lyon, I played only Bretagne, Normandie and Lyon more than a couple of times. Still upgrading Lyon.

They all share the 340mm calibre, but after Bretagne, they get updated shells.

Bretagne: 340 mm AP OPf Mle 1924, 340 mm HE OEA Mle 1932
 

Normandie, 340 mm AP OPfK Mle 1930, 340 mm HE OEA Mle 1934

Lyon: 340 mm AP OPfK Mle 1930, 340 mm HE OEA Mle 1934 

I read somewhere the French AP shells are “light” and therefore lack impact. Not sure this applies to both old and new versions equally.

With French HE, fire starting chance is not good. I find that french DD Aigle can start fires easier and faster than the French BB’s.

It may be bad luck, but with no other BB, including KM, I have seen so many salvos straddle all around the target without zero damage. Frustrating.

900HP overpens are not unusual. Shatters, even when firing at cruisers, not unusual.

At short-ish range (10-12km) and broadside on, you can one-shot cruisers with French AP, no problem.

With Lyon, you have a 16 barrel salvo to compensate for the weak shells.

I cannot say that the French BB’s I have used are my favourites, and cannot say much positive about them, except for their speed. Up to Bretagne, typical dreadnaught 20-ish knot speed. However, Normandie goes 28 knots, with speed flag 29.5 knots. Lyon 27 knots. This means you can engage and disengage more easily, you can dodge incoming fire more efficiently.

I remember a battle where 3 enemy BBs charged our cap, I was the first defender to arrive in Normandie. I dodged in and out of the cover of islands, manoeuvred so I could engage one enemy BB’s, bu the other two had no line of fire. I also varied my speed, which threw the aim of those 3 BB’s off. I suffered little damage, killed one and heavily damaged the other two before the team arrived. I should say this was a T6 battle, most T5/T6 BBs go like 20 to 24 knots. When you take Normandie into a T7 or T8 battle, the speed is not that much of an advantage… or against a T5 Kongo.

Above T5, the French BB’s are balanced differently from other lines. They tend to have good speed and either a faster reload or a lot of barrels, but the damage from the individual shell/barrel is rather underwhelming. T6 and up French BB’s would be rather cruiser hunters if you ask me.

About this Light shell characteristics, i found it contradict with the current mechanic.

If the shell is light, hurled by massive force of 340mm; It explain how it getting deflected or shattered often, but still,

It shouldn't overpen a lot, thus having 9500 AP damage (which IMO is too much for a light shell). 30s reload may be also need to be adjusted if the shell is light.

Overpen to a DD is maybe ok, even 128mm overpen a lot, but BB ?

Sorry i was about to sleep when i posted my last replies. Id rather not to reply it when dizzy.

10 hours ago, Sparcie said:

I've got the Bretagne and Normandie and haven't had significant issues with them.

The Normandie has in fact been quite strong for me each time I've played it, especially using AP against cruisers, but against BBs it does ok as well. If you feel you can't handle a situation it's fast enough to get away fairly quick. It's main weakness is poor armour, AA and firing arcs, so if you're greedy and show too much side you risk being citadelled, and CVs can eat you for breakfast. Normandie is similar in firepower to Fuso/New Mex with the exception of slightly smaller guns/penetration.

Bretagne is much like the New York with slightly better AA. It works pretty much the same.

Neither have particularly good dispersion, but they aren't bad compared to others at their respective tier either.

I've got a fair way to grind before I get to Lyon. So far they've been quite fun, and I've heard very good things about the T7-9 BBs from clan mates.

 

12 hours ago, j0e90 said:

I kinda like the Bretagne, I found it pretty easy compared at least to the New York. Just don't compare it to the Iron Duke with that broken UK HE.

With those smaller calibre guns you HAVE to aim at superstructure on BBs. But you should see fewer AP over pens against cruisers. I do wonder if those 340mm guns need a slight ROF buff - maybe 28 seconds.

Like the OP I won the Bretagne in the crates, Im now at the Richelieu. Nearly unlocked the hull upgrade. 

Does anyone else feel that the WG dev's got drunk again and swapped the Lyon with the Richelieu? The Lyon has god tier AA, 16 guns salvos if you want to show your side. Richeliue, well it loses half the shell weight, half the AA. It gains speed and secondaries , but without torps do you really want to get  close?  The Lyon really feels like the stronger ship - at least in the T7 - 8 space. 

Looking forward to ending this bloody campaign.

To Joe and Sparcie, yes, ships itself is quite enjoyable.

10 hours ago, Pocket_Fox said:

I swear the more recent patch changed AP for BB's.

Giulo Cessare, firing at Cleveland 12km away full broadside. 6 overpens.

Lyon firing at fiji 14km away, full broadside, 8 overpens

Alsace firing at baltimore, 9km away, full broadside, 1 pen, 2 overpen.

 

It's like BB AP just overpens Cruisers now.

 

Buuuut.

I'm struck a Currywurst at 18km in my Alsace....citadel....

Tipritz at 15km, in Alsace, citadel.

I've noticed a lot more BB citadels at long ranges since the latest patch.

But even then I still get a shell that hits, shows as 'penetration'   0 dmg

I watched some videos from Notser and Flamu about the change tho i didn't immediately took notice to the difference.

It seems  you're right about now BB overpens a lot. But for French BB, tier 5-7 in particular, it also overpen, but also shatters and deflected. And sometimes doing 0 damage. I think that fishy.

And i tried my Konig which has lower AP value, it don't have such behavior.

Edited by Brunswickz

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12 hours ago, Brunswickz said:

About this Light shell characteristics, i found it contradict with the current mechanic.

If the shell is light, hurled by massive force of 340mm; It explain how it getting deflected or shattered often, but still,

It shouldn't overpen a lot, thus having 9500 AP damage (which IMO is too much for a light shell). 30s reload may be also need to be adjusted if the shell is light.

The kinetic energy of an object is the speed times mass. If two shells leave the barrel of a canon at the same speed, the heavier will have more kinetic energy, which will influence the trajectory and remaining energy when it hits the target.

AP punches through the armour with it’s remaining kinetic energy and the explosive charge goes off by delay timer, ideally inside the ship, for maximum damage.

Study the armour of different ships, BB’s have areas where armour is thin (bow/stern/superstructure) so over-penetration by 340mm shells is perfectly feasible. So are shatters on the main armour or turret faceplates.

Those are the general principles, and that’s how far my knowledge goes.

Are you an old artillery man, or how do you know the characteristics of those shells are “wrong”?

Or is the problem you just don’t “like” the way the shells perform?

I think the fact that you don’t “like” the characteristic of a shell will not convince WG to change characteristics. They may change characteristics if they believe that is required to balance the ship.

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On 3/12/2018 at 10:27 AM, j0e90 said:

With those smaller calibre guns you HAVE to aim at superstructure on BBs. But you should see fewer AP over pens against cruisers.

At short ranges, say, 5-10km, you can shoot AP at the side of the ship.

I have done so successfully in the new T7 operation.

At this stage I couldn’t tell you exact distances, my secondaries range is 7.2km, around there. I’m still learning to use Lyon, just finished upgrading her yesterday.

What I can say is that “at shorter ranges”, AP fired at the side of the ship seems to do the most damage per salvo. With Lyon’s disperson you have shells hit everywhere, including superstructure, even at those short distances, but I’m aiming at just above waterline.

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1 hour ago, PeterMoe1963 said:

The kinetic energy of an object is the speed times mass. If two shells leave the barrel of a canon at the same speed, the heavier will have more kinetic energy, which will influence the trajectory and remaining energy when it hits the target.

AP punches through the armour with it’s remaining kinetic energy and the explosive charge goes off by delay timer, ideally inside the ship, for maximum damage.

Study the armour of different ships, BB’s have areas where armour is thin (bow/stern/superstructure) so over-penetration by 340mm shells is perfectly feasible. So are shatters on the main armour or turret faceplates.

Those are the general principles, and that’s how far my knowledge goes.

Are you an old artillery man, or how do you know the characteristics of those shells are “wrong”?

Or is the problem you just don’t “like” the way the shells perform?

I think the fact that you don’t “like” the characteristic of a shell will not convince WG to change characteristics. They may change characteristics if they believe that is required to balance the ship.

Technically the formula for kinetic energy is speed squared multiplied by mass, so a heavier object can have less energy than a very fast moving one.

take a 1Kg object versus a 4Kg one.

4Kg at say 4m/s has 64Kj kinetic energy

1Kg at 8m/s has the same energy. 1/4 the mass but only 2 times the speed.

 

Anyhow back to the french BBs, having played the Normadie some more I think it's just really inconsistent, and getting citadels requires a flatter broadside than other ships require.

One game I triple citadel a fuso in one salvo.

another I struggle to do any damage at all.

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13 minutes ago, Sparcie said:

Technically the formula for kinetic energy is speed squared multiplied by mass

Quite correct, apologies. I should have remembered this. To get the correct units for energy, it has to be speed squared. Energy is measured in Joules: kg * m^2 / s^2.

42 minutes ago, Sparcie said:

it's just really inconsistent

Yes, inconsistent. Good way to express with one word.

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On 3/13/2018 at 7:14 AM, PeterMoe1963 said:

The kinetic energy of an object is the speed times mass. If two shells leave the barrel of a canon at the same speed, the heavier will have more kinetic energy, which will influence the trajectory and remaining energy when it hits the target.

AP punches through the armour with it’s remaining kinetic energy and the explosive charge goes off by delay timer, ideally inside the ship, for maximum damage.

Study the armour of different ships, BB’s have areas where armour is thin (bow/stern/superstructure) so over-penetration by 340mm shells is perfectly feasible. So are shatters on the main armour or turret faceplates.

Those are the general principles, and that’s how far my knowledge goes.

Are you an old artillery man, or how do you know the characteristics of those shells are “wrong”?

Or is the problem you just don’t “like” the way the shells perform?

I think the fact that you don’t “like” the characteristic of a shell will not convince WG to change characteristics. They may change characteristics if they believe that is required to balance the ship.

Sorry it took a long time to reply.

Nah i don't have military background, it just inconsistent as Sparcie said.

Maybe, just maybe tho, the unique 340mm fell into the valley that make that possible.

As about overpen to 340mm is debatable i think, because i used to Z-46 AP characteristics where what matter to explode the shell is the ship length or thickness.

At Z-46, if i shot Russian DD, it would do nice damage 3500-5000 approximately, where at thinner DD it only about 2200.

It is not about the penetration power of the shell, but the fuse timer. i.e. RN ships always have shorter fuse.

I'm not trying to make WG to alter this to suit my taste, but i think this is inconsistent with the AP that ive been using so far.

So yea, may be im not the only one, maybe, it is really an unintended bug ?

And......

Ive got my self Richielieu. Still inconsistent IMO.

So far i remedied this by shooting the upper hull plate instead citadel, or superstructure. Or just simply using HE.

About Richie... this is a ship with mixed feeling.

Against tier 8 or lower she is fine, penning Lyon with ease, but against tier 9 or 10, the same thing happens. Not as atrocious as 340mm but still happens.

This time, mostly happens to cruisers. I can't have faith for my gun to make a finishing shot. Even at a very short range like 4km, they just miss, deflected, overpen, or shatter.

Coupled with only have 8 guns, dispersion, and quite low health pool, i find it challenge to fight against tier 9 or 10 BBs.

Driving is nice tho, many occasions i used her to CQC with DDs. Torp beating, circling and that stuff.

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