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_TAMAL_

CV Rework Ideas

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As we all know that WG intend to rework CVs in future, here are some proposals from me.[ I don't play CVs(only 158 matches) not because I didn't like them but because the economy felt too punishing relative to my time investment.] Most of these ideas are inspired from several posts from different forums and may or may not satisfy everyone, and thus I expect constructive criticism. :Smile_honoring:Also,  I am totally against the removal of CVs or removal of Alt Attacks(manual drop/strafing) although I think strafing needs to be toned down a bit. So here are the steps that I think are needed to balance CVs :

 

STEP 1
Fix CV Spotting

Make CV spotting identical to Cyclone spotting. Only the CV will physically be able to "see" the ship it spotted, other ships in his team will just see an "icon" in the minimap. This will give other ships a general idea of where to go to spot the ship. However, spotting by Ship-Launched Fighter/Spotter remains same as before.
Completely eliminate torpedo spotting by planes or at least make torpedoes waaay harder to spot by planes. Additionally, eliminate both spotting and AA through islands.

 

STEP 2
Set Maximum Operational Range

This is basically a more refined and easy version of the idea "giving planes limited fuel". Instead of adding fuel/timer function and making things more complex, all CVs can be given a fixed operational range in which they can operate/send their squadrons. it is identical to the "firing rnage" of other ships and will scale up with tier(but will never cover more than 50% of the map), which means squadrons will only be able to go to a max distance( say 12km) from the CV unless the CV itself desides to get close into more strategic positions(A lot of CV players in high tier actually play this way to maximize dmg by reducing cycle times). This will allow for more dynamic gameplay from the CV players side as staying in the far end of the map will no longer be viable. This can also be a viable option for balancing CVs around concealment rating.
Additionally, CV secondaries should be buffed to increase survivability. Concealment should be buffed too if necessary(In case of US CVs).  
 
 

STEP 3
Lower CV Alpha/Increase AA survivability

CV Alpha for both DB & TB should be lowered by a significant margin(like 50%). It is really odd to see even fully AA specced ships like Des Moines or Motana get dev striked by Midway Bombers...
let alone other ships that don't have AA build at all.

Alternatively, AA survivability of ships can be increased to offset the effectiveness of attacking squadrons. Single HE salvo from Conqueror simply wipping out entire AA suite of a Moskva doesn't sound logical at all...

 

STEP 4
Stacking Squadrons

Currently there is no penalty for stacking multiple squadrons and thus it is easy for CVs to ensure hit on vertually any target without braking much sweat. This is a source of a lot of frustration specially in higher tiers as it becomes really hard for even ships with good AA to avoid drops.
This can be easily mitigated without braking the game by simply giving an HP penalty to stacked squads. Make it like "-25% to squadron HP when stacked", this will work the moment 2 or more squadrons are stacked, regarless of the method and will work even when you are just moving them around.

 

STEP 5
Alt Function For T4-5 In Co-Op/Training Room

As the title says, I think manual drop and strafing for t4-5 should at least be allowed in Co-Op and Training room so that new players are able to learn them before getting thrown into T6 with minimal experience. A message for new players notifying them of this feature will also be needed.

 

STEP 6
Fix CV Economy

Current CV economy is uninspiring at best. The raw xp and credit income has led to players like me stop playing the type.

  

Edited by _TAMAL_

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Transfer this post to the Developers' Section -> Suggestions.

Edited by seiji09

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1 minute ago, LunaStinger said:

Most of your points are good although I don't think there should be a penalty for stacking squads. That penalty should be applied to 3-man CV division instead :P

It's just a suggestion, the penalty can be less or even of different type.

About Divisions, well It becomes almost a one sided match if enemy has Grozovoi+Minotaur+Midway div...I agree, there needs to be some sort of penalty! xD

5 minutes ago, seiji09 said:

Transfer this post in the Developers' Section -> Suggestions.

Can you help me out on how to do that?:Smile_Default:

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19 minutes ago, _TAMAL_ said:

Can you help me out on how to do that?:Smile_Default:

@amade help move to that section, or copy it to there so more ppl can comment on this post while devs can still see it

 

anyways great read, good job 

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My idea was from back when CVs 'OP'.

Basically have them have great strike power, unify number of fighter sqns  across IJN/USN at tier, don't have number disparity per wing, then have DB/TB ratio upto the captain, make DBs just as good but different to TBs. Make the difference something like IJN higher fire/flood chance but less damage. Or have USN TBs slower torps but bigger damage, very easy to create a large difference with small variety.

Then Nerf AA, but buff it when within other AA bubbles and boost XP for plane kills. ie +25% damage per ship within AA range. OMG CAs need to escort ships again!

Then CVs punish lone wolves (as it should be) but AA rewards teamwork.

Edited by S4pp3R

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How to Fix CV :

 

Step 1 : Move to New game Engine

 

tanks got new engine Core in march, many of stupid AA mechanic were game engine limitation. the cartoonish aircraft animations, the whole shitty Aura mechanic, the interaction of AA, the pathetic Visual effect for AA, the laggy UI, everything

 

Step 2 : Start from scratch

 

ps. moving to new engine with that water dynamic would look stunning, and the ramming mechanic would be better imo

Edited by humusz

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8 minutes ago, drakon233 said:

@amade help move to that section, or copy it to there so more ppl can comment on this post while devs can still see it

You mean repost? I must admit, I have very limited idea about forum functions...

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15 minutes ago, S4pp3R said:

My idea was from back when CVs 'OP'.

Basically have them have great strike power, unify number of fighter sqns  across IJN/USN at tier, don't have number disparity per wing, then have DB/TB ratio upto the captain, make DBs just as good but different to TBs. Make the difference something like IJN higher fire/flood chance but less damage. Or have USN TBs slower torps but bigger damage, very easy to create a large difference with small variety.

Then Nerf AA, but buff it when within other AA bubbles and boost XP for plane kills. ie +25% damage per ship within AA range. OMG CAs need to escort ships again!

Then CVs punish lone wolves (as it should be) but AA rewards teamwork.

I actually like your TB/DB idea, it'll give a lot more freedom to the player and will open up options for different strike setups.

As for the AA bubble thing, it is already too RNG dependent...adding +25% to that, although is a good idea, my not work properly under the current system.

As @humusz said, we really need a better game engine and total overhaul of AA mechanics for things to work...:cap_rambo:

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22 minutes ago, _TAMAL_ said:

I actually like your TB/DB idea, it'll give a lot more freedom to the player and will open up options for different strike setups.

As for the AA bubble thing, it is already too RNG dependent...adding +25% to that, although is a good idea, my not work properly under the current system.

As @humusz said, we really need a better game engine and total overhaul of AA mechanics for things to work...:cap_rambo:

Thanks

Yeah I would reduce RNG in AA by at least 50%. Obviously they'd need to fix and change a bunch of stuff around my idea. Sometimes I wish someone with ideas would actually work/be listened to at game companies.

Edited by S4pp3R
Stupid autocorrect

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1 minute ago, S4pp3R said:

Sometimes I wish someone with ideas would actually work/be listened to at game companies.

We wouldn't be having anymore "How to Fix" threads/discussions like this then....:Smile_teethhappy:

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16 minutes ago, _TAMAL_ said:

We wouldn't be having anymore "How to Fix" threads/discussions like this then....:Smile_teethhappy:

There would still be discussions like this, there's always room for improvement and better balance.

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1 hour ago, _TAMAL_ said:

STEP 2
Set Maximum Operational Range

This is basically a more refined and easy version of the idea "giving planes limited fuel". Instead of adding fuel/timer function and making things more complex, all CVs can be given a fixed operational range in which they can operate/send their squadrons. it is identical to the "firing rnage" of other ships and will scale up with tier(but will never cover more than 50% of the map), which means squadrons will only be able to go to a max distance( say 12km) from the CV unless the CV itself desides to get close into more strategic positions(A lot of CV players in high tier actually play this way to maximize dmg by reducing cycle times). This will allow for more dynamic gameplay from the CV players side as staying in the far end of the map will no longer be viable. This can also be a viable option for balancing CVs around concealment rating.
Additionally, CV secondaries should be buffed to increase survivability. Concealment should be buffed too if necessary(In case of US CVs).  

set all every ship has fuel for limit traveling

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7 minutes ago, Onlinegamer said:

set all every ship has fuel for limit traveling

In exchange for unlimited access throughout the map?(Unlimited range with minimal gun dispersion), I'd definitely take it...:Smile-_tongue:

On a more serious note: I think you didn't get my point. In current state, no other ship class is able to deal 1v1 against a CV, limiting their operational range will make them take risks while providing opportunity for other ships to deal with it 1v1 if situation arises. CVs will have to "move" closer into position to inflict damage and control the tide of the battle just like every other ship class does. It will also encourage more team play as "protecting the CV" will become a responsibility for other ships of both team and the cv will in exchange protect its fleet.:cap_like: 

Edited by _TAMAL_

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4 minutes ago, icy_phoenix said:

Don't you guys feel tired from starting a CV Rework Idea thread each week? And discussing same points over and over?

Well, this was my first attempt...:cap_haloween:

Edit: Should've given the title "Yet another CV thread before WG actually fixes them":Smile-_tongue:

Edited by _TAMAL_

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1 hour ago, humusz said:

tanks got new engine Core in march, many of stupid AA mechanic were game engine limitation. the cartoonish aircraft animations, the whole shitty Aura mechanic, the interaction of AA, the pathetic Visual effect for AA, the laggy UI, everything

Imo the only way to truly fix CVs would be to overhaul the entire AA mechanic. It is such an RNG fest with 0 skill involved. Just click on the target, WASD hax as much as you can and hope for the best.

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If AA is such an issue then why not remove the AA module for Battleships? Increase the HP or the durability of the AA guns but not the effective firing distance, have to remember that HE strips the AA from ships over time. 

Make the AA module only available to cruisers that have the DFAA ability. All other cruisers can still spec into BFT and AFT, but their overall AA rating or effectiveness is reduced once reworked. That said they could spec into Manual AA (theory) and be able to protect themselves, but obviously they would have to trade out points from elsewhere. That would sort of remove "cookie cutter builds".

What about giving Fighters unlimited ammunition but a flight time of 4 minutes per squad? TB and DB whilst carrying their ordinance can stay out as long as they want and have the ability to spot, once dropped the CV captain can only return them without the ability to spot with them - a sort of pilot exhaustion mechanic.

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They should lower the AA of ships like Conquerer who should have more weaknesses. Maybe increase the AA multiplier to 4x or 5x on USN cruisers since they are supposed to be that AA role and actually do things like reinforce their AA health to emphasise their AA ship role. One game I lost all my 3" AA guns due to Conquerer HE in half a match (luckily no CV that match) but from playing hundreds of DM games that's the first time it has happened. Never happened before the Conquerer entered the game.

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18 hours ago, Thyaliad said:

Imo the only way to truly fix CVs would be to overhaul the entire AA mechanic. It is such an RNG fest with 0 skill involved. Just click on the target, WASD hax as much as you can and hope for the best.

^this. 

AA mechanic is a joke, the ship with slow AA stats like the fish on board, while other one with high AA  stats just moving around and shoot down anything dare to fly into their death zone. and all of it is pure RNG.

AA should be control able, they could made an AA mode ,

the ship in AA mode can't fire they main gun and player can control all AA just like in WoWP, and AA effectiveness in normal combat mode will be decrease or neutralize if the AA gun also they main gun.

 

Another problem that CV in high tier is very stressful to play, while most of ship only need to care about they flank, CV need to watch an entire map while control every squadron, that starcraft level macro and not everyone can do it perfectly. That not mention when skill or the ship itself can't compare with opponent, everyone can see it and blame you for their lost no matter how much effort you put in. To summarize CV is a stressful work which need very high skill but the reward is nearly nothing. the pure masochist job :Smile_bajan2:

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12 minutes ago, K135Blitzkrieg said:

the ship in AA mode can't fire they main gun and player can control all AA just like in WoWP, and AA effectiveness in normal combat mode will be decrease or neutralize if the AA gun also they main gun.

No, this is not logical. unless they are DP guns.

Usually I would say, change them between AA and secondary mode since they share same guns in many cases. AA and Main guns went side by side always. and there is no relation between them.

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21 hours ago, _TAMAL_ said:

As we all know that WG intend to rework CVs in future, here are some proposals from me.[ I don't play CVs(only 158 matches) not because I didn't like them but because the economy felt too punishing relative to my time investment.] Most of these ideas are inspired from several posts from different forums and may or may not satisfy everyone, and thus I expect constructive criticism. :Smile_honoring:Also,  I am totally against the removal of CVs or removal of Alt Attacks(manual drop/strafing) although I think strafing needs to be toned down a bit. So here are the steps that I think are needed to balance CVs :

 

STEP 1
Fix CV Spotting

Make CV spotting identical to Cyclone spotting. Only the CV will physically be able to "see" the ship it spotted, other ships in his team will just see an "icon" in the minimap. This will give other ships a general idea of where to go to spot the ship. However, spotting by Ship-Launched Fighter/Spotter remains same as before.
Completely eliminate torpedo spotting by planes or at least make torpedoes waaay harder to spot by planes. Additionally, eliminate both spotting and AA through islands.

How about making it so torps aren't perma spotted by planes and will only be spotted when they are above them?  This could force a cv player to choose to spot the torps for team or DD that launched them.  Could cause player mistakes like spotted another ship's torps and followed them and let "fired" DD go and he torped successfully cause CV followed wrong set and let him go.  This could also tie up more planes from CV on a single DD.  Which could be hurtful to the CV as that's use of your planes. 

STEP 2
Set Maximum Operational Range

This is basically a more refined and easy version of the idea "giving planes limited fuel". Instead of adding fuel/timer function and making things more complex, all CVs can be given a fixed operational range in which they can operate/send their squadrons. it is identical to the "firing rnage" of other ships and will scale up with tier(but will never cover more than 50% of the map), which means squadrons will only be able to go to a max distance( say 12km) from the CV unless the CV itself desides to get close into more strategic positions(A lot of CV players in high tier actually play this way to maximize dmg by reducing cycle times). This will allow for more dynamic gameplay from the CV players side as staying in the far end of the map will no longer be viable. This can also be a viable option for balancing CVs around concealment rating.
Additionally, CV secondaries should be buffed to increase survivability. Concealment should be buffed too if necessary(In case of US CVs).  
 
I like it.  It would fit with history, for sometimes the fleets had to make the choice to let ships go as the CV had moved and it was an option of get the ship and lose the planes, or let it go and save the planes.  This would also remove CV sniping or AFK sniping if the CV player hasn't moved forward.  This would give smart players a chance to break off and run from the CV if they have low AA value. 

STEP 3
Lower CV Alpha/Increase AA survivability

CV Alpha for both DB & TB should be lowered by a significant margin(like 50%). It is really odd to see even fully AA specced ships like Des Moines or Motana get dev striked by Midway Bombers...
let alone other ships that don't have AA build at all.

Alternatively, AA survivability of ships can be increased to offset the effectiveness of attacking squadrons. Single HE salvo from Conqueror simply wipping out entire AA suite of a Moskva doesn't sound logical at all...

How about lower AA values across the board to where it's good for your tier only and make the MM for CV +-1 for all ships involved.  You are in T6 CV, you never see T8 or T4 (unless fail div).  This would help with AA and help WG able to tone it down as they buffed AA for ships to survive uptier CV strikes.  Make max. level of planes match tier of CV launching them.  So no more T6 TB for Zuiho anymore. (Exception made for Saipan cause reasons.) 

STEP 4
Stacking Squadrons

Currently there is no penalty for stacking multiple squadrons and thus it is easy for CVs to ensure hit on vertually any target without braking much sweat. This is a source of a lot of frustration specially in higher tiers as it becomes really hard for even ships with good AA to avoid drops.
This can be easily mitigated without braking the game by simply giving an HP penalty to stacked squads. Make it like "-25% to squadron HP when stacked", this will work the moment 2 or more squadrons are stacked, regarless of the method and will work even when you are just moving them around.

That doesn't really make sense. How about making accuracy lower.  Bigger stack, bigger area for torps and bombs to go in as your planes are getting in each other's way.  Real Life Example, Battle of Midway, 2 American DB almost did this, but managed to not due to sheer luck and good training. They should have it the same target and let 2 CV survive.  

STEP 5
Alt Function For T4-5 In Co-Op/Training Room

As the title says, I think manual drop and strafing for t4-5 should at least be allowed in Co-Op and Training room so that new players are able to learn them before getting thrown into T6 with minimal experience. A message for new players notifying them of this feature will also be needed.

This is a good idea.  I learned how to manual everything in Co-Op.  If bot CV beats you at T4, you need more practice.  If you own his butt, you can be average. 

STEP 6
Fix CV Economy

Current CV economy is uninspiring at best. The raw xp and credit income has led to players like me stop playing the type.

Don't know about high tier, only at T6.  Will bow to your knowledge. 

  

 

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21 hours ago, Thyaliad said:

Imo the only way to truly fix CVs would be to overhaul the entire AA mechanic. It is such an RNG fest with 0 skill involved. Just click on the target, WASD hax as much as you can and hope for the best.

Well I prefer they overhaul everything not just AA, there also aircraft spoting that break or balance the whole coancelment mechanic

 

so, I would like them to Start from sketch, with new game engine. and re-launch it at like Warship 1.0 or something.

with all that restriction in place (those aura RNG thingy, UI limitation etc) they would prob just going to be shackled into same conclusion over and over.

 

I would like them to Fresh start, for unicum CV and fresh player alike

simply because, people that not play CV now wont going to play CV even after they fix it, (its prob only pleased returnee or mains) simply the population of CV would be not sustainable

but a fresh start on whole thing would, attract new sustainable population. since it represent not just curiosity but also fresh opportunity

Edited by humusz

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10 hours ago, BunnyDragon said:

How about making it so torps aren't perma spotted by planes and will only be spotted when they are above them?  This could force a cv player to choose to spot the torps for team or DD that launched them.  Could cause player mistakes like spotted another ship's torps and followed them and let "fired" DD go and he torped successfully cause CV followed wrong set and let him go.  This could also tie up more planes from CV on a single DD.  Which could be hurtful to the CV as that's use of your planes. 

This is indeed a very good idea...it will not only allow for more strategic options(CV has to prioritize which torps he needs to keep spotted, or if he has to go after the dd instead) but will also force other ship drivers pay more attention to surroundings and minimap. I don't think it will be that much hurtful regarding that CV planes are fast enough to change position quickly.

10 hours ago, BunnyDragon said:

Don't know about high tier, only at T6.  Will bow to your knowledge. 

Well, my knowledge is up to T6 as well...:Smile-_tongue:technically, it should be worse at higher tiers because of increase in repair cost while xp gain parameters remain same(I think.... I may be wrong)

 

3 hours ago, PGM991 said:

It's impossible to fix one problems without rise another problems

 It will be helpful if you point out some of the Other Problems that may arise with the ideas I gave...It will help refining the ideas to something more suitable:Smile_great:

11 hours ago, K135Blitzkrieg said:

Another problem that CV in high tier is very stressful to play, while most of ship only need to care about they flank, CV need to watch an entire map while control every squadron, that starcraft level macro and not everyone can do it perfectly. That not mention when skill or the ship itself can't compare with opponent, everyone can see it and blame you for their lost no matter how much effort you put in. To summarize CV is a stressful work which need very high skill but the reward is nearly nothing. the pure masochist job 

And Yet there are people who absolutely love the class and play accordingly, they seem to have very good results as well... that is where "Skill gap" comes into play. That is why in my proposal, instead of reducing skill level of CVs(Which will be rather punishing to people who are good in CVs), I talked about ideas that will reduce CV influence while still rewarding skilled gameplay...

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