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legionary2099

How to deal with glorious Yamato admirers ?

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Recently , i have a heated arguement with another countrymen about the Yamato vs GK vs Montana BB in WoWS.

I argue that Montana is a much more powerful BB , with the right mix of everything. And better overall at shredding everything while not losing much when facing BB.
GK is the YOLO specialist that can screw Yamato in most matches provided that it can get close at somepoint or just be a lazy bum and spam 12 HE at Yamatos while angled
His defend for the Yamato include :
Both have same rudder , but Yam get tighter turn circle

The 27 knots speed vs 30 speed is bogus since both will usually operate way below that speed.

Glorious gun with overmatch , tighter grouping , better dispersion and better AP alpha. Can deal heavy damage to any ship regardless angle ( 9k is heavy in his sense)
If a Yamato zig zag his movement using the tighter turn , Montana has no chance , especially at range.

Most dont install rudder shift on Montana , so no way a Mon can get to a Yamato broadside without eating a few citadels.

The slow gun traverse isnt bad thanks to how far out it can shoot effectively.

It DOESNT fear torpedo , thanks to the ridiculous belt. Montana fear torpedoes while GK is hard to dodge torps even with its Hydro.
How do i convince that thick head that Montana is objectively better , his arguement seems to point out that Yamato gun will take care of them all :cap_haloween:?

Bonus : this afternoon :
shot-18_01.11_15_55_55-0109.thumb.jpg.cc19b2f367a843f4152ff3b65c78cd9d.jpg
World of BB

Edited by legionary2099

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6 minutes ago, humusz said:

in 1 on 1 - conqueror conquer them all

no, conq is countered by yamato cus of the 32mm armor, if a yamato shell hits it it's gonna go in

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32 minutes ago, legionary2099 said:

Recently , i have a heated arguement with another countrymen about the Yamato vs GK vs Montana BB in WoWS.

I argue that Montana is a much more powerful BB , with the right mix of everything. And better overall at shredding everything while not losing much when facing BB.
GK is the YOLO specialist that can screw Yamato in most matches provided that it can get close at somepoint or just be a lazy bum and spam 12 HE at Yamatos while angled
His defend for the Yamato include :
Both have same rudder , but Yam get tighter turn circle

The 27 knots speed vs 30 speed is bogus since both will usually operate way below that speed.

Glorious gun with overmatch , tighter grouping , better dispersion and better AP alpha. Can deal heavy damage to any ship regardless angle ( 9k is heavy in his sense)
If a Yamato zig zag his movement using the tighter turn , Montana has no chance , especially at range.

Most dont install rudder shift on Montana , so no way a Mon can get to a Yamato broadside without eating a few citadels.

The slow gun traverse isnt bad thanks to how far out it can shoot effectively.

It DOESNT fear torpedo , thanks to the ridiculous belt. Montana fear torpedoes while GK is hard to dodge torps even with its Hydro.
How do i convince that thick head that Montana is objectively better , his arguement seems to point out that Yamato gun will take care of them all :cap_haloween:?

tell him to take his yamato and 1v1 me in any other T10, i'll eat him for breakfast

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Just now, drakon233 said:

no, conq is countered by yamato cus of the 32mm armor, if a yamato shell hits it it's gonna go in

its 1 on 1. Conq outspot yamato, and can set kitting position like a zao would. or circle around yamato broadside unnoticed

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I would simply respect/ignore this persons opinion, if they think this way then let them, what harm does it do to you that they think the Yamato is the best tier X BB?

Does it affect how you play? I'd be very doubtful if it did.

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Just now, darkflame88 said:

I would simply respect/ignore this persons opinion, if they think this way then let them, what harm does it do to you that they think the Yamato is the best tier X BB?

Does it affect how you play? I'd be very doubtful if it did.

Nah , i hate how he glorify that Yamato firepower will take care of its flaw and how its fatal flaw not affecting much when it did and alot.
 

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Just now, legionary2099 said:

Nah , i hate how he glorify that Yamato firepower will take care of its flaw and how its fatal flaw not affecting much when it did and alot.
 

Wasn't Yamato's actual fatal flaw a severe lack of AA, which she also has problems with in-game,  I killed one of with a Shokaku a few weeks ago.

Yamato isn't a good BB at tier X, you're right on that, but bear in mind she is the only real ship. I'm not going to start moaning about how she should be in tier IX and that they should bring in the A-150 but Tier X should only be for paper ships, not real ones.

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End of the day:

People will have different opinion on which is a better BB, Cant change a person point of view from things. No point trying to waste your time to try to "correct" him

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20 minutes ago, humusz said:

its 1 on 1. Conq outspot yamato, and can set kitting position like a zao would. or circle around yamato broadside unnoticed

to do what? it cant damage the yamato enough to get a definitive edge over her and then she's stuck next to a ship that can do 10k + no mattern how much she angles, if she ranged and HE spammed that'd have a better chance of working

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21 minutes ago, legionary2099 said:

Nah , i hate how he glorify that Yamato firepower will take care of its flaw and how its fatal flaw not affecting much when it did and alot.
 

firepower means jack shit when she cant overmatch GK bows, montana belt and gets excacuted as much as the russian royal family by other T10 BBs

she's really good with dealing with lower tier bowkamping BBs and CAs with troll armor, and that's about it

Edited by drakon233

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4 minutes ago, drakon233 said:

to do what? it cant damage the yamato enough to get a definitive edge over her and then she's stuck next to a ship that can do 10k + no mattern how much she angles, if she ranged and HE spammed that'd have a better chance of working

conqueor can circle to get yamato broadside unnoticed unleash ap salvo then disengage

unless you have yamato with rpf, how yamato can always point her bow on stealhed conqueror ?

Edited by humusz

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4 minutes ago, humusz said:

conqueor can circle to get yamato broadside unnoticed

unless you have yamato with rpf, how yamato can always point her bow on stealhed conqueror ?

 dont need to, conqconqconq only get 1 free salvo on yamato before she knows where you are, and you cant disengage before he fires you

Edited by drakon233

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Just now, drakon233 said:

 dont need to, conqconqconq only get 1 free salvo on yamato before she knows where you are, and you cant disengage before he fires you

conqueror can angle - stern away before she open fire, fire from 12.5km at yamato broadside

you each trade 1 hit, and thats it. broadside shoot would always higher damage

 

conq sail away, cease fire - back into stealh. she have 1.8km advantage in detection, and around 2 knot faster ?

she can keep yamato spoted and reposition for another strike

in open map, like ocean yamato wont able to effectifly retaliate

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12 minutes ago, humusz said:

conqueror can angle - stern away before she open fire, fire from 12.5km at yamato broadside

you each trade 1 hit, and thats it. broadside shoot would always higher damage

 

conq sail away, cease fire - back into stealh. she have 1.8km advantage in detection, and around 2 knot faster ?

she can keep yamato spoted and reposition for another strike

in open map, like ocean yamato wont able to effectifly retaliate

you are baseing this off 3 incorrect assumptions

 

1: broadside will always do more damage in the long run

no, the closest range that conq can get into is 11.1 KM, thats around 30-50k damage, and at that range, no matter what you do to angle or dodge in a conq, you will get 20k+ shaved off, and you lose the element of surpirise, and shells fired from even further has the risk of not punching through, because of the low penatration power of those fast fuse AP shells you need a VERY large broadside to get citadels in

2: a conq can go back into concealent easily

no, did i mention that the conq has higher arial detection vs surface detecton? you fire 1 shot and your element of surprise is compleatly gone and you are forced to fight yamato at a very close range, something VERY not advisable to do

3: a conq can reposition easily

again, no, even if you managed to get back into conealment, keep in mind that even in a high speed ship like a fletcher with speed boost on, flanking to the broadside of a 25-30kt ship chaseing you is going to take the better part of 3 minutes, in a ship with a meer 2kt edge over yamato, that time would extend to the next match

 

so no, the only chance that a conq stands against a yamato is to stay decent range and hope RNG will stack enough DOT combined with alpha to out dmp yamato with it's high alpha strikes against you

Edited by drakon233

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8 minutes ago, drakon233 said:

you are baseing this off 3 incorrect assumptions

 

1: broadside will always do more damage

no, the closest range that conq can get into is 11.1 KM, thats around 30-50k damage, and at that range, no matter what you do to angle or dodge in a conq, you will get 20k shaved off, and you lose the element of surpirise

2: a conq can go back into concealent easily

no, did i mention that the conq has higher arial detection vs surface detecton? you fire 1 shot and your element of surprise is compleatly gone and you are forced to fight yamato at a very close range, something VERY not advisable to do

3: a conq can reposition easily

again, no, even if you managed to get back into conealment, keep in mind that even in a high speed ship like a fletcher with speed boost on, flanking to the broadside of a 25-30kt ship chaseing you is going to take the better part of 3 minutes, in a ship with a meer 2kt edge over yamato, that time would extend to the next match

 

so no, the only chance that a conq stands against a yamato is to stay decent range and hope RNG will stack enough DOT combined with alpha to out dmp yamato with it's high alpha strikes against you

 

Conqueror dont need to get that 11km close. the point of having 12.5km is larger buffer in case of yamato try to chase or minimize air detection - it left enough room for manuver and less for misstake

and in one on one situation, time isnt an issue.  in unlimited time - conqueror would simply be in upper hand.

 

in 30 min match, if both ship cant wrap the match. like boxing it would conclude with either counting point (based on hp loss, damage or whatever) or draw

Edited by humusz

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10 minutes ago, humusz said:

 

Conqueror dont need to get that 11km close. the point of having 12.5km is larger buffer in case of yamato try to chase or minimize air detection - it left enough room for manuver and less for misstake

and in one on one situation, time isnt an issue.  in unlimited time - conqueror would simply be in upper hand.

 

in 30 min match, if both ship cant wrap the match. like boxing it would conclude with either counting point (based on hp loss, damage or whatever) or draw

im saving a spot for muh post later, im on the bus and i cant screenshot or type effectively

 

bottom line, a conq cant do the things you claim it can, one on one yamato has the definite advantage unless RNGesus really screw him with stuff like 4 fires in a salvo after DCP

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2 minutes ago, drakon233 said:

im saving a spot for muh post later, im on the bus and i cant screenshot or type effectively

 

bottom line, a conq cant do the things you claim it can, one on one yamato has the definite advantage unless RNGesus really screw him with stuff like 4 fires in a salvo after DCP

take your time, we just playing armchair generals afterall

 

if talking about rng, then Conqueror would always hold the initiative due to better stealh and speed.

she were the one to decide opening engagement if the stars and planets were aligned and all 12 shell insta delet yamato in first salvo that also can happen

 

you might assume that its fair shell sludgin fair fight.

but I will prob never fire, if I dont got good enough opportunity and let it end up in draw by timeout letting it a zero sum game for another try

conqueror need to play dirty, backstabing - assasin like to have decisive win over yamato

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Uh… is it seriously worth the time and effort winning this kind of debate? That guy may have been overestimating Yamato's performance, but everyone can have their own opinion, and you don’t have to debate with them unless it's so wrong. And Yamato isn't that bad.

But if you are fixated on winning the debate, use the official clan battles analysis would be nice, Montana was the most popular choice for the battleship slot.

 

And for the Conqueror/Yamato 1vs1 situation, I'd say it is possible for Conqueror to try sneak up Yamato's broadside and fire a salvo of AP at it. Because a 1vs1 scenario is highly theoretical, I would stick to data analysis.

419mm AP outperforms 16"/50 Mk7 in terms of penetration beyond some point between 5 and 10km. It also flies faster and has better ballistic performance.

419mm 5/10/15/20km

719 mm (3.03 deg, 2.36 s)
631 mm (7.13 deg, 5.03 s)
554 mm (12.55 deg, 8.06 s)
490 mm (19.35 deg, 11.49 s)

16"/50 Mk7 5/10/15/20km

736 mm (3.08 deg, 2.36 s)
619 mm (7.63 deg, 5.13 s)
521 mm (14.15 deg, 8.38 s)
444 mm (22.64 deg, 12.18 s)

While Conqueror is not as accurate as Montana, it does better than GK. And Yamato is a exposed single layer citadel structure, which neglects the British short fuse disadvantage.

Edited by HMS_Swiftsure_08

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8 minutes ago, HMS_Swiftsure_08 said:

Uh… is it seriously worth the time and effort winning this kind of debate? That guy may have been overestimating Yamato's performance, but everyone can have their own opinion, and you don’t have to debate with them unless it's so wrong. And Yamato isn't that bad.

But if you are fixated on winning the debate, use the official clan battles analysis would be nice, Montana was the most popular choice for the battleship slot.

Yep did that , and he said that Yam will win everything else ..... Now what to do

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6 minutes ago, legionary2099 said:

 

Yep did that , and he said that Yam will win everything else ..... Now what to do

"Had that been the case, why more people pick Montana for a highly competitive scenario like clan battles despite the Yamato player base being larger?*"

* based on warships.today

Montana SEA965,021 NA1,284,544 EU1,894,502

Yamato SEA2,158,868 NA1,450,339 EU2,604,094

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Well for many random (actually for a incredibly large amount) players, Yamato is sort of like "dreams coming true" or "Re-living the history" while Montana "didn't even exist". But for competitive plays, this is not a freaking naval battle simulator and ships having a greater impact always shine. Because in Ranked and Clan Wars or Team Battles, dealing damage is never a priority, which is the only plus point for Yamato right now.

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