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Stats - what do they mean? what do they mean to you and why?

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Just now, humusz said:

well not all ship created equal and not like player play all ship equally

some ships have much much higher impact on the match than others. Like aircraft carrier for example

a properly played radar cruiser have higher match impact than lets say, a french cruiser that dont over anything aside from damage

 

to put it simply some ships can carry the game easier than others.

IJN DD might have it a bit harder to carry the game than others DD. but the line sure can be lot of fun for some people so they played it a lot more than other line

 

so IMO, the Exp earned would be the best indicator of Player skills

if they are often or even being consistently found themself on top 3 of score screen, regardless win/loss - then its a good indicator that the player were good

 there's just one problem with that, not only is prem time included in avrage XP, but diffrent ships also have diffrent multiplyers, for example a DM can do 60k damage and still get the same ammount of XP as a zao or HIV or MSK doing 100k, 

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1 minute ago, drakon233 said:

 there's just one problem with that, not only is prem time included in avrage XP, but diffrent ships also have diffrent multiplyers, for example a DM can do 60k damage and still get the same ammount of XP as a zao or HIV or MSK doing 100k, 

Or, Sims.

You get 1k exp on battles where "You did not prove yourself in battle".

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40 minutes ago, Adm_Kunkka said:

Everyone thinks their opinion counts as much as everyone else's. But this is not a democracy, this is a game. Just like a doctor's opinion holds much more weight when it comes to diseases compared to your homeopathy enthusiast aunt, a game related opinion holds more credibility when coming from a 60% wr player compared to some 45% winrate player who thinks opinions dont have to be backed up by facts.

This is so true.  Equality is an important part of life - people's gender, race, sexuality etc have no bearing on the quality of person they are - but people think this extends to everyone's opinion being equal regardless of whether they have any knowledge of a subject or not.  If someone has a far deeper understanding of a subject than another person, then clearly the opinion of the person who actually knows what they are talking about carries much more weight.

It comes down to what I was saying earlier - people don't realise that they don't know what they're talking about.  They are unaware that there is a much deeper understanding of something that they have not attained.  So they think their opinion is just as valid as someone who is an expert in the field they are commenting on.  Understanding the limits of your knowledge, and deferring and hopefully learning from someone who clearly knows more on a subject than you do, is an important part of life.

 

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5 minutes ago, icy_phoenix said:

Or, Sims.

You get 1k exp on battles where "You did not prove yourself in battle".

to name a few ships

DM, sims, atlanta, minotaur, montana, missouri...

wait im seeing a pattern here...(capitalism best economy Illuminati confirmed xfile themesong plays in backgroud)

 

 

the thing is, this game's ships are more or less divided into 3 classes of ships for me, 1 is the damage dealers, they are good at farming damage but get lower net income, then there's 2, support ships, these ships arnt as good at farming damage but have a overall impact on the match, and they often have higher XP/credit multipliers due to the fact that otherwise they'll have a hard time breaking even(i mean, look at the sims, 4 127 pew pew and water mines, usless in dealing damage against larger ships unless they are really dumb) 

so based off of stats, you cant comapre these 2 classes of ships equally, but generally i'll look at the dmg/WR as 70/30 for damage dealers and dmg/WR 40/60 for utility shis

 

then there are CVs, CVs can do both, they will do damage and support your team, CV screws you, and the economy screws CVs 

Edited by drakon233

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Just now, drakon233 said:

 there's just one problem with that, not only is prem time included in avrage XP, but diffrent ships also have diffrent multiplyers, for example a DM can do 60k damage and still get the same ammount of XP as a zao or HIV or MSK doing 100k, 

well, if DM shoot DD or cruiser more. then the amount of Exp would be greater rite ?

zao, HIV, and hindy is basicly set as easier DPM ships by WG design. and whittle enemy BB is their job description

that by itself were lesser game impact than controling capzone that DM excell for example

 

sure there premium like Sims that have broken exp multiplier.

thats why I said that player that consistenly found themself in top of scoreboard is indication of the player being good.

can this be found in player stats ? i dont think thats available for public (WG might have it though).

its prob not a good way to measure others, but yourself can measure your own performence with it

 

after all the thread name is STATS, what do they mean to you - so for me its basicly evaluation of my own performance. and for me being on top of leaderboard is measure on how consistent I can perform

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2 minutes ago, humusz said:

thats why I said that player that consistenly found themself in top of scoreboard is indication of the player being good.

It would be useful if WG could supply us with average last standing position in teams or something like that. It would be a really good measurement. Or if WG could remove the premium time multiplier from average exp records.

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1 minute ago, icy_phoenix said:

It would be useful if WG could supply us with average last standing position in teams or something like that. It would be a really good measurement. Or if WG could remove the premium time multiplier from average exp records.

I think they prob have it, since they also record ship movement on map and a lot of more stuff that not available for public

 

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10 minutes ago, humusz said:

I think they prob have it, since they also record ship movement on map and a lot of more stuff that not available for public

 

I found the full API list

https://developers.wargaming.net/reference/eu/wows/ships/stats/?application_id=demo&r_realm=eu

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24 minutes ago, humusz said:

well, if DM shoot DD or cruiser more. then the amount of Exp would be greater rite ?

zao, HIV, and hindy is basicly set as easier DPM ships by WG design. and whittle enemy BB is their job description

that by itself were lesser game impact than controling capzone that DM excell for example

it's not just about what the DM is shooting at, if you took a yamato and let a DM and zao burn him down, with the same amount of damage, the DM will come out with more income

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2 hours ago, drakon233 said:

that's the problem with this forum, whenever anyone new comes here it's almost always about "xxx is OP" "XXX is unplayable" "XXX i cant carry boo hoo hoo"  and the things that they are complaining about is almost always because of their own incompetence, so when the forum members who actually gives a shit and reply to them "gid gud“ and how to do it, they will always take it as a insult because ofc they are right and you are wrong and the universes is spinning as usual, and as usual they will say that "i know how to play this ship" or in one case "you obviously havnt played much in high tier" to me on a post about how Montana is UP and yamato over-match is OP(i have more battles in the Montana alone then he has in total).so, after helpfully teaching him how to easily kill a yamato because yamato is shit against montanas

so why other thing to do in this case other then to bring out stats? if he wont listen to reason and logic then let the numbers speak for themselves

If you track this whole thread, you'll notice a couple of reoccurring things - 

1. No one's opinion is wrong - Someone believes in xyz stat is right, then to them that's what's important to them

2. Your are 100% right, perception is the key... but that's on both sides there, first the poster, they are struggling with a ship, a game style, maybe a basic concept - Then you have the other side, the person who has come across in what can be perceived to be a negative way. Don't worry - I get that 20 seconds of searching would normally get results for there troubles. 

But your wrong in your statement that they are right and you are wrong, your both right and your both wrong all at the same time. 

@Adm_Kunkka you asked how stats don't mean much to the individual, lets take two examples here - 

In Australia, someone who has T Cell Non Hodgekins lymphoma Cancer when caught in Stage 2 have a 60% chance of not living past 5 years - Now I know of people who've had that cancer who have lived beyond 5 years and are still cancer free.

but hey, lets talk football (AFL) in Australia

The richmond football club by statistics should of been dominated in the grand final - yet they wern't. They won, and dominated the match. 

Lets take the following table comparison, which shows the raw statistical data for the entire year

Adelaide Football Club is in the left hand side and Richmond is in the right. (note that these numbers are averages for the entire year, and the better the number the better you generally are)

 

218.8 Kicks 210.3
173.6 Handballs 154.4
392.4 Disposals 364.7
90.9 Marks 84.5
15.8 Goals 13.2
13.0 Behinds 12.3
28.8 Scoring Shots 25.5
71.9 Tackles 69.7
45.4 Hitouts 31.8
19.8 Frees For 18.8
20.0 Frees Against 21.1
10.8 Goal Assists 9.3
57.5 Inside 50s 55.8
154.7 Contested Possessions 144.9
239.4 Uncontested Possessions 214.1
286.4 Effective Disposals 256.0
73% Disposal Efficiency % 70.2%
56.2 Clangers 58.0
12.4 Contested Marks 11.0
14.6 Marks Inside 50 14.0
39.6 Clearances 35.9
13.2 Centre Clearances 12.9
26.4 Stoppage Clearances 23.0
34.8 Rebound 50s 35.8
50.3 One Percenters 47.7
6.6 Bounces 8.6
1.26 Kick to Handball Ratio 1.36
54.9% Conversion 51.8%
24.84 Disposals Per Goal 27.63
13.62 Disposals Per Scoring Shot 14.30
5983.6 Metres Gained 5711.6
74.0 Turnovers 72.7
77.0 Intercepts 77.4
13.6 Tackles Inside 50 14.3

 

Now to the official Grand Final Stats - once again, Adelaide on the left, Richmond on the right 

Stat.thumb.JPG.6373de361de42eb8f88f31f5374477df.JPG

The final result for the final was 

Adelaide 8 Goals 12 behinds for a total of 60 

to Richmond 16 Goals 12 behinds for a total of 108 - 

So statistically Adelaide should of won, looking at the actual Data, the key metric data - Adelaide should of only just won. But what this data doesn't tell you is the x factors, that allowed Richmond to absolutely dominate. 

On the day, statistics didn't tell the story - it was the things that you cannot get the data on that made all the difference to the end result. 

But just to be clear here, I've stated from the start - we're looking purely at the data, not the stuff you cannot record or we don't have the ability to see, so without knowing the people behind the keyboards, the context if you want to call it that why then are we on 'choice' bits of data that do not and cannot tell the whole story.

For the record - this conversation isn't about me trying to throw my opinion down peoples throats - it's trying to get an intellectual discussion about the stats... and do they actually at the end of the day mean anything (As state above by other people) 

I have always felt that stats useful to track progress, but the limited data set we have visible doesn't in fact tell the whole story.

@icy_phoenix I understand :) Early Supertesting didn't have event ships, so a loss was recorded as a loss and as you know - it's pretty easy to loose when you know nothing about the ship your supposedly testing. That's now thankfully changed, but one of the things that people don't see with supertesters is we're generally jumping in to an unproven ship, with unproven configuration and we're really trying to find that sweet spot of what that ship is and isn't good at. Unfortunately the side affect of that is something your annihilated and other times your not :P

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1 minute ago, drakon233 said:

it's not just about what the DM is shooting at, if you took a yamato and let a DM and zao burn him down, with the same amount of damage, the DM will come out with more income

doesnt that the one that shown on Ingame player stats ?

I mean the one that not available to us only to developer, suboctavian once said they have data that shown where player goes on spesific maps. 

and analize it to make map adjustment 

 

1 minute ago, drakon233 said:

it's not just about what the DM is shooting at, if you took a yamato and let a DM and zao burn him down, with the same amount of damage, the DM will come out with more income

oh, thats new

well... still, if DM press radar and some poor DD got killed as a result.

even if DM itself not deal any damage to  said DD, he already have big influence of the game

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20 minutes ago, tc1259 said:

In Australia, someone who has T Cell Non Hodgekins lymphoma Cancer when caught in Stage 2 have a 60% chance of not living past 5 years - Now I know of people who've had that cancer who have lived beyond 5 years and are still cancer free.

Thats called luck not stats. And how does some people surviving even support your argument when they had a 40% chance of surviving statistically? I never claimed that 40% wr players will not win in any particular match, they just aren't likely to win, as those cancer patients aren't likely to live; BUT its not 100%

Going to your football stats even though I don't know crap about that sport.
First of all those stats look pretty damn close to each other even to someone like me who can't make head or tail of it. Similarly the second set of data is also pretty damn close to each other inspite of your claim that one side Dominated the other. This isnt like comparing a 45% wr player to a 60% wr player. This is more like comparing ZOO and VOR. One side is likely to be slightly better but noone can say for sure which side is going to win in a particular game. But if a 45% avg wr clan were to face off against either of those clans seriously, noone would be insane enough to bet on that clan.
So as I and others said before, stats do have a significance but is not an absolute measure. But if the stats heavily favor one side over the other (which is not the case with the football data you showed here) then we can safely compare the two and declare which side is better.
Of course we have seen the underperformers coming out on top from time to time but those are usually outliers in the data. Like when that Australian ice skater got an Olympic gold because he was last but everyone in front crashed. That doesn't destroy the logic that statistically he shouldn't have won.
 

32 minutes ago, tc1259 said:

1. No one's opinion is wrong - Someone believes in xyz stat is right, then to them that's what's important to them

This is just utter bs. Next you will be claiming that the earth is flat, and you are right because every opinion is correct. Opinions on vague topics may be subject to this statement but statistics is solid maths and numbers never lie; lying is for people who can't win and blame their teams or rng all the time

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31 minutes ago, Adm_Kunkka said:

Thats called luck not stats. And how does some people surviving even support your argument when they had a 40% chance of surviving statistically? I never claimed that 40% wr players will not win in any particular match, they just aren't likely to win, as those cancer patients aren't likely to live; BUT its not 100%

Going to your football stats even though I don't know crap about that sport.
First of all those stats look pretty damn close to each other even to someone like me who can't make head or tail of it. Similarly the second set of data is also pretty damn close to each other inspite of your claim that one side Dominated the other. This isnt like comparing a 45% wr player to a 60% wr player. This is more like comparing ZOO and VOR. One side is likely to be slightly better but noone can say for sure which side is going to win in a particular game. But if a 45% avg wr clan were to face off against either of those clans seriously, noone would be insane enough to bet on that clan.
So as I and others said before, stats do have a significance but is not an absolute measure. But if the stats heavily favor one side over the other (which is not the case with the football data you showed here) then we can safely compare the two and declare which side is better.
Of course we have seen the underperformers coming out on top from time to time but those are usually outliers in the data. Like when that Australian ice skater got an Olympic gold because he was last but everyone in front crashed. That doesn't destroy the logic that statistically he shouldn't have won.
 

This is just utter bs. Next you will be claiming that the earth is flat, and you are right because every opinion is correct. Opinions on vague topics may be subject to this statement but statistics is solid maths and numbers never lie; lying is for people who can't win and blame their teams or rng all the time

Opinion is fine. You should accept it. But whether you agree. Is up to you.

 

Heck even if someone that is not a medical student give me facts or stats. Or even opinions. I d accept it. To research futher and confirm it is what i do. Or i d simple let it be between agree or disagree. Hiatus 

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9 minutes ago, Safiuddin97 said:

 

Heck even if someone that is not a medical student give me facts or stats. Or even opinions. I d accept it. To research futher and confirm it is what i do. Or i d simple let it be between agree or disagree. Hiatus 

True, but I bet you wouldn't start taking pills that some random guy prescribes.
You'd still ask a doctor for verification unless you want to search it on the internet just to find out you have 7 kinds of cancer

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1 hour ago, Adm_Kunkka said:

True, but I bet you wouldn't start taking pills that some random guy prescribes.
You'd still ask a doctor for verification unless you want to search it on the internet just to find out you have 7 kinds of cancer

But i think NO DOCTOR will prescribe u wrong medicine. Or they gonna get Malpractice Sue for that. They want the best. Just like that. Yes mistakes happen. But usually we try to minimize that

Oh but u did say Random guy. YEAH SURE. Cause they dont have MBBS or MD. Surely i wont. They dont have knowledge and start to prescribe things. That is very lethal

Edited by Safiuddin97

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2 hours ago, Adm_Kunkka said:

Thats called luck not stats. And how does some people surviving even support your argument when they had a 40% chance of surviving statistically? I never claimed that 40% wr players will not win in any particular match, they just aren't likely to win, as those cancer patients aren't likely to live; BUT its not 100%

Going to your football stats even though I don't know crap about that sport.
First of all those stats look pretty damn close to each other even to someone like me who can't make head or tail of it. Similarly the second set of data is also pretty damn close to each other inspite of your claim that one side Dominated the other. This isnt like comparing a 45% wr player to a 60% wr player. This is more like comparing ZOO and VOR. One side is likely to be slightly better but noone can say for sure which side is going to win in a particular game. But if a 45% avg wr clan were to face off against either of those clans seriously, noone would be insane enough to bet on that clan.
So as I and others said before, stats do have a significance but is not an absolute measure. But if the stats heavily favor one side over the other (which is not the case with the football data you showed here) then we can safely compare the two and declare which side is better.
Of course we have seen the underperformers coming out on top from time to time but those are usually outliers in the data. Like when that Australian ice skater got an Olympic gold because he was last but everyone in front crashed. That doesn't destroy the logic that statistically he shouldn't have won.
 

This is just utter bs. Next you will be claiming that the earth is flat, and you are right because every opinion is correct. Opinions on vague topics may be subject to this statement but statistics is solid maths and numbers never lie; lying is for people who can't win and blame their teams or rng all the time

Be very careful mate - I've made no such claim. All I'm saying is if someone believes that a stat is important, and they build there formula around that, then that's what matters to them. 

And Your validating my own point too - 

So as I and others said before, stats do have a significance but is not an absolute measure. But if the stats heavily favor one side over the other (which is not the case with the football data you showed here) then we can safely compare the two and declare which side is better.
Of course we have seen the underperformers coming out on top from time to time but those are usually outliers in the data. Like when that Australian ice skater got an Olympic gold because he was last but everyone in front crashed. That doesn't destroy the logic that statistically he shouldn't have won.


I've been stating from the word go, that stats whilst yes - they are a part of the puzzle are not the be all and end all of it. There are many factors you simply cannot quantify. 

The old saying that with stats you can prove anything - is accurate, you can :)

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49 minutes ago, Safiuddin97 said:

But i think NO DOCTOR will prescribe u wrong medicine. Or they gonna get Malpractice Sue for that. They want the best. Just like that. Yes mistakes happen. But usually we try to minimize that

Oh but u did say Random guy. YEAH SURE. Cause they dont have MBBS or MD. Surely i wont. They dont have knowledge and start to prescribe things. That is very lethal

U should point out there is the LAW to protect  their client. 

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Unfortunately, EXP earned at the end of the battle isn't particularly great of an indicator of performance, because Wargaming's API includes the premium account modifier within a player's average EXP stats.

What this means is that players with premium account will have higher average EXP values within websites like Warships.Today and WOWS-numbers.com.

Ideally, EXP would be a great way of eyeballing how well someone plays (it juggles direct damage, spotting damage, ship kills, plane kills and capture points very well), however Wargaming screwed up on this one.

Edited by benlisquare

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15 minutes ago, benlisquare said:

Unfortunately, EXP earned at the end of the battle isn't particularly great of an indicator of performance, because Wargaming's API includes the premium account modifier within a player's average EXP stats.

What this means is that players with premium account will have higher average EXP values within websites like Warships.Today and WOWS-numbers.com.

Ideally, EXP would be a great way of eyeballing how well someone plays (it juggles damage, ship kills, plane kills and capture points very well), however Wargaming screwed up on this one.

I am not sure why WG just doesn't use base xp.

Base xp already shows up in the team scoreboards after the battle, so it is not like they aren't tracking it already.

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58 minutes ago, benlisquare said:

Unfortunately, EXP earned at the end of the battle isn't particularly great of an indicator of performance, because Wargaming's API includes the premium account modifier within a player's average EXP stats.

What this means is that players with premium account will have higher average EXP values within websites like Warships.Today and WOWS-numbers.com.

Ideally, EXP would be a great way of eyeballing how well someone plays (it juggles damage, ship kills, plane kills and capture points very well), however Wargaming screwed up on this one.


I saw people done avg but scored tons of EXP. But for Freemium. Unless signal boost. 

I cant agree more. Nailed it

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5 hours ago, tc1259 said:

No one's opinion is wrong

This right here is what is wrong with the planet today.  If your opinion is based on false reasoning and ignores clear facts, then it is wrong, and your right to express your poorly constructed opinion doesn't change the fact that it is complete rubbish.

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12 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

This right here is what is wrong with the planet today.  If your opinion is based on false reasoning and ignores clear facts, then it is wrong, and your right to express your poorly constructed opinion doesn't change the fact that it is complete rubbish.

i am somewhat agree with this..... but here is the  MURICA DEMOCRAZY! everyone think they are right, no one is wrong.....

the fallacy is real!

 

_______________________

anyway, ranked past 12 is the best measure to now if someone dedicated enough to gitgud..... if he manage to get rank 1, he must becomegitgud in the process. because facing competitive player at rank 5 and above will give you the experience how gitgud player playing......

its just about time and number of match until some noob become gud.

there is people who learn fast and gitgud after 200 match.... or the slow learner who finally gitgud at 6000 match.

 

in my opinion, gitgud with 55%~75% WR is not enough.... i want to gitgod with 95%~99% WR

if you think its impossible... that is why its called "gitgod" andthere is too many gitgud player already

 

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21 minutes ago, Skarhabek said:

i am somewhat agree with this..... but here is the  MURICA DEMOCRAZY! everyone think they are right, no one is wrong.....

the fallacy is real!

 

_______________________

anyway, ranked past 12 is the best measure to now if someone dedicated enough to gitgud..... if he manage to get rank 1, he must becomegitgud in the process. because facing competitive player at rank 5 and above will give you the experience how gitgud player playing......

its just about time and number of match until some noob become gud.

there is people who learn fast and gitgud after 200 match.... or the slow learner who finally gitgud at 6000 match.

 

in my opinion, gitgud with 55%~75% WR is not enough.... i want to gitgod with 95%~99% WR

if you think its impossible... that is why its called "gitgod" andthere is too many gitgud player already

 

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