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Stats - what do they mean? what do they mean to you and why?

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3 hours ago, tc1259 said:

Background: We have a thread about stat bashing, but I thought I would separate this conversation out in to it's own thread. I briefly touched on a number of the stat point's but I think i'm going to expand it out a little more here. 

Now to the original conversation, where I will expand out.  I'm a bit of a stat nerd, after all it's what I did for a paid professional job.... here is my take on the stats that are collected

Additionally and I feel that this is important, as it's usually always confused - Stat's and Game Play Styles - they are mutually exclusive to one another, this conversation isn't about Game Play style, it's looking purely at the stat and what I feel by looking at the data presented is more indicative of a players skill level.

Let's start with the one that's always brought up. Win Rate

Win Rate: Win Rate in world of warships, at least in random and ranked is kinda hard to pin down as the most important stat, the reason why is the following. You might be a great player, but if everyone around you in your team isn't. Then no matter what you do, the % chance that you'll win the battle is quite low. Now Yes, one can argue that over time this shouldn't really be a factor, but remember - over time doesn't actually count. It's the battle your in that gives you the win or loss. 

I have seen that the argument of 'when i've done this' in a match, we've usually won.... that's fantastic, congrats. But in any battle there are pivotal moments, these are X factors and some people can see them, others cannot.

By in large, an individual's play cannot statistically influence a battle, there are other factors involved -  but occasionally that can happen. As an example - you might yolo at the perfect moment, distract the enemies flanks, who then open themselves up to being attacked, causing them to take further damage and ultimately winning your battle. 

But this wont always happen in every match, every time... 

So what are we looking at here in Win Rate: well, taken mathematically it's this simple. You are 1/24th of the combination that can either win or loose the game, additionally you need to factor in RNG. So really your 1 in 25. 

Additionally to this you now need to work, without knowledge of who your team mates are there skills and weakness's and ultimately x factors which are not quantifiable to work out that from the moment you enter the game your likely hood of winning this match is actually quite low. No matter if your the best player in the world, this will only increase your winning % and not make it a guaranteed thing.

Overall, whilst win rate can be used as a guide, it's not accurate, nor is it really comparable to others due to the nature that your not always with the same players. This is also why you see a difference between divisioned players and non. You have two additional players in your division, you do increase the odd's of a win, but at the end of the day the Win / Loss stat is extremely variable.

Again, pure stats, nothing to do with X Factors and un-quantifiable elements


Average Damage: Unlike the above stat, this one I feel is actually the most important stat you can have. And I know that will be a bit of a controversial view on things, but I'll explain why. 
 

  1. This stat is the only stat you have direct control over
     
  2. This stat is the only stat that can have a direct relationship to your team winning / loosing a battle - now don't get me wrong, we've all had games where we've done 100k plus damage to loose, but if you look at your team in those losses, you'll see there average damage was quite low
     
  3. The more damage you do, the less HP the enemy has - the greater your influence to win the battle becomes.  

Personally, if i'm looking at a player who has say a 40% win rate, but has a much higher average damage than say some other players - I'll generally take them over someone who has a higher win rate - why, cause I know there doing everything they can in the situation there in. They are doing damage, obviously more information is needed at this point, but this is going outside of the stat's and more in to tangible play style / personality. 

Average damage to me says as an example. If the Average damage on the server is 90k for say Montana, and I'm doing 180k - I'm pretty sure that the player has a real handle on that ship, knows what there doing is getting them results and lets face it, they are now 'killing' a large portion of the enemies hp, that in some cases could be a couple of ships.

Please be aware, that I am aware that some ships have low damage output, when I talk average damage, it has to be seen in layers - ie: Overall and at ship level. 

Battles: Another Meh stat, really this doesn't count for much - other than Experience at playing the game, we all know it takes a while to become good at a ship. 

Average Experience: Another good indicator, the higher the average exp, the more work the player is doing in the battle. This generally is a direct result on the damage / in game actions. If from a stat point of view I'm looking at Avg Damage + Avg Experience + Win rate and it's telling me a good story, then i'll be saying that hey, the player in question actually knows what he's doing. 

Survival: Meh - you can survive a lot of games by sitting in the back corner not doing much - but if this is higher than average, as well as Avg Damage and Avg Exp, then this player is starting to show that they are a good player

The following two stat's I don't overly worry about - reason why - End of the Day, killing a ship whilst important, is not as important as damage. Kill Stealing is I couldn't care less, working in a division as long as that ship goes bye bye. And plane deaths, well okay - if your in a ship that has little AA, why would that matter? unless your in a cv

Avg Kills
Avg Plane Kills

Kills / Deaths: 
This stat is and isn't important, depending on what your looking for, this stat is subjective dependent on if your skilled at supporting your team or being the spearhead. Individually, the top players on the asia server sit around the 2.0 to 3.7 kill to death ratio, showing there is a link there between being good as an individual and stats. But from a purely team play point of view, this kill to death drops to around 1.5 in Team Battles.

Average Tier: Kinda important, a player can have great stat's but if there simply playing in Tier 3 all the time - then there probably not going to make the transition. Personally most of my games are in 5 / 6 and 7 - so for me that's where I make money. 

On the Asia server, it currently looks like the average tier being played is 4.6.

Anyways - just remember that win loss isn't the best guide on a player, it does have some correlation - but when you factor in other elements, it's entirely possible that a decent player can have a bad W / L - 

In my opinion, people should focus on what they can control and not what they can't. Oh and remember, statistics do not matter to the individual! You only have to look at the sporting and medical fields to prove that.

I would love to see this come up as a discussion with other players opinions, but as a reminder - No Stat Bashing and just because someone may disagree with your opinion on why a particular stat is or is not important, it doesn't mean they are right or wrong. 

This thread is actually about what the different data point's mean to you as players, not how you got the stat - As mentioned above, X factors cannot be recorded

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Average XP could have been a much more useful indicator if WG hadn't included premium time modifier in it. A few months ago, I read reddit and saw the idea for a new stat "average team ranking in solo games". Could be very useful if it were implemented.

Average tier is mostly relevant if you want to separate the <T6 seal-clubbers and T8+ try hard but other than that its usefulness is limited. I think the specific class and specific ships that one plays also matter. It's much easier to get a 60%+ WR in a DM or Belfast compared to a Henri IV or a Yorck. 

I highly disagree with the idea that WR, particularly solo WR does not matter and really hate the fact that the less skillful playerbase always prefer blaming their team instead of reviewing their performance for further improvement. A lot of elements are un-quantifiable but according to statistics, eventually randomized factors will still have an average level at large enough samples like thousands of battles, which ensures the finalized quantifiable stat - WR is reliable. I am certain that few if none at all among 1500+ WTR or 2100+ PR players possess a <55% WR over their last 180 days or nearest 1000 battles record - their consistency in skill makes up for all these randomized elements. I am also curious how possible there are 45% ish players with like 5000+ battles in their belt. Unless you are a masochist, there is little reason to keep doing something you suck for 1000+ hours - especially when there is no skill-based MM to match you with similarly ranked players.

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Stats - what do they mean? what do they mean to you and why?

 

Some people care about the game statistic personal record to have FUN.

Some people just happy-go-lucky and play the game just to have FUN.

Some people just killing their time by play with their friend in the game to have FUN.

Some people just play the game for certain goal that their want to have FUN.

 

That's why.........................

If u care about the game stat, then go for it.

If u just grind and try gain ur goal at the end, then go for it.

If u just want to kick somebody *** & ruin other peoples day in the game, then go for it.

In the end, no one will stop u in the game as long u have FUN & stay for what u believe. But remember, there're people that don't have the same goal or opinion with us.

In the end as well, the only side that have all the benefits that come is the game company itself.....

 

Edited by ArchKongou
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2 hours ago, blauflamme22 said:

To answer the question posed in the title, they mean very little to me, I play the game for fun. As long as I feel I've had a good game and contributed to the team then I'm happy. I have enough percentages and stats to worry about in the real world, I certainly dont need any more in WoWS!

 

^^^^^^  This. 100%

:cap_like:

However I do take notice of my own damage as I play in each match, as an indicator of how I am doing, but that's all.... I don't take notice of other peoples stats.... 

I love ships all my life, I had many models of them all, thats why I'm here.... 

WR = pfft

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6 hours ago, tc1259 said:

Anyways - just remember that win loss isn't the best guide on a player, it does have some correlation - but when you factor in other elements, it's entirely possible that a decent player can have a bad W / L -

No, it isn't.  Your solo win rate is a direct measure of your average performance in battle.  It is an extremely accurate representation of the skill of a player.  Whether you care about your stats or not is irrelevant, your win rate is still a direct result of your skill as a player.

The objective of the game is to win each battle.  Everything you do in game is in support of this focus.  All your stats apart from win rate such as average damage, spotting damage, survival rate, average xp, kill rate etc are all indicators of the sort of player you are - but they are all in support of your win rate.  If you have a high average damage but a poor win rate, you are a poor player, and the reason for this is because your damage has clearly not been against the right targets at the right time.  If it had been, your win rate would be much better.  Having said that, average damage stats will usually roughly increase with increasing win rate, with the qualification to that being that players who play a lot in one ship type will have either more or less damage than average for their skill level depending on the type they most play (from most to least average damage - CV > BB > CA > DD).

Now reading through the first post in this thread it is instantly apparent that the OP does not have a significant understanding of what it takes to win the game.  A quote like "By in large (sic), an individual's play cannot statistically influence a battle" simply shows that the OP can not see the plays needed to win the game - where the player has to be and what they need to be doing to ensure a win.  A player that knows the key plays that need to be made, and is then able to execute them successfully, will have a crucial effect on the team's chance of success.

Everyone has a different level of understanding of the game - the most unwashed potato will generally know the basic functions of their ship, and that firing at the red ships is a good idea, but they won't know who to fire at, where to fire at them, how to position their ship both in terms of angle/speed and map position, plus of course the massive amount of other factors you need to be aware of.  The concept of all those things does not exist in their brain, they are quite simply unaware of them.  Meanwhile a perfectly average player may be aware of supporting their team mates with an objective, a rough idea of what is best to fire at and with what ammo, the idea of not presenting a broadside to the enemy, the concept of wanting to maximise their damage output and trying to win the game.  While a highly skilled player will be able to identify the largest threats, where those threats are likely to be positioned and what their aims will be, maintain awareness of both enemy and friendly ship positions and predict what they are doing then adapt their game accordingly to maximise the chance of being successful with the team they have, position and control their ship highly effectively and be extremely capable of both formulating highly effective plans and then executing the plans with a high chance of success. 

Between and outside these three player skill levels there are endless subtle multitudes, but for a player who is at a certain plane of understanding it is difficult to analyse concepts they are either partially or completely unaware of.  This is the issue with the OP's post - they simply don't understand a great deal about the game, and so they are formulating theories based on a limited understanding.  Hence the thoroughly flawed premise that the OP presents.

Lastly, I'd just like to point out that it is no reflection on any person if they are a poor, average or superb player of the game - judging people's worth based on their skill level at something reflects poorly on the person doing the judging, not on the person being judged.

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stat in random battle is useless..... its random and RNG oriented... no matter how good are you, if the RNG is sheet.....

 

for example, i did 61 hit in charles martel only cause 1 fire.....

i hit 38 hit in Gadjah Mada..... 7 burn...

even your shell landing is RNG based...... i missed enemy BB at 8km?? THE ENEMY BB IS NOT MOVING! how the hell i am missed??

random battle is all about luck..... WR is bullsheet....

_______________________----

RANKED IS THE REAL MEASURE HOW GOOD IS PLAYER! the higher the rank, the better player!

in ranked there is fewer ship, it mean you can actually DECIDE THE OUTCOME! compared to shitty random battle!

 

past the rank 12, it will decide how good is player! for example if RNG MM is VERY VERY BAD and you got 10 lose streak, it doesnt matter since YOU WONT LOSE STAR if you are TOP XP EARNER! even with 30% WR badluck, you can still get to rank 1 if you always become TOP XP EARNER!

 

if someone manage reach rank 1 with WR less than 45%..... this must be ultimate skilled player with badluck MM....

 

 

RANKED PROVE SKILL

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27 minutes ago, Skarhabek said:

stat in random battle is useless..... its random and RNG oriented... no matter how good are you, if the RNG is sheet.....

Incorrect. Your solo WR in random battles is an excellent measure of your carry potential.

If your solo WR is 50%, you are neither significantly assisting nor obstructing your team.

If your solo WR is 60%, you are, with strong statistical significance, carrying a meaningful portion of games where your teammates may have failed to perform well.

 

As an example of someone who is able to carry a randomly generated team of 12 people, even if he's unlucky enough to be thrown a ton of terrible teammates, here are Gaishu_Isshoku's solo stats:

  • Overall: 64.28% WR (sample size 5,619)
  • Last 21 days: 78.05% WR (sample size 41)
  • Last 60 days: 72.15% WR (sample size 158)

What this means is that he is almost a full quartile above "random RNG chance", which is 50%. Some games you are given good teammates, and other games you are given bad teammates; theoretically this would give you 50% WR if you had no good or bad influence over a game. To have 78% WR, you would need to consistently be able to have a positive impact on the game, regardless of whether or not your allies are good or bad, and whether or not your enemies are good or bad.

Division WR, on the other hand, is a more useless measure of skill, since any form of rigid coordination is going to have a positive impact over otherwise randomised teams.

29 minutes ago, Skarhabek said:

the higher the rank, the better player!

This is incorrect, given that there is nothing stopping an extremely dedicated player with mediocre skills from ranking out through sheer brute force. I have seen 42% WR players who have ranked out, simply because they have played over 600 ranked battles. If you play enough battles, eventually the stars will align, and you'll get carried enough matches in a row to reach rank 1.

Edited by benlisquare
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I think every bit of stats have their own use, and only you can recall how you achieved that stat. So only you can explain how you did. Others can get a vague idea reading your numbers, but they cannot always correctly estimate your abilities, unless they are terrible.

Jealousy is another issue. Once you find a player with certain stats higher than yours, instead of trying to find some reasons as to why that stat doesn't mean anything and boosting your ego thinking how you are actually a better player, try to find if is there anything that you can take.

So I guess asking yourself is the best way. It is pointless to brag. There is always a bigger fish.

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9 hours ago, tc1259 said:


Average Damage: Unlike the above stat, this one I feel is actually the most important stat you can have. And I know that will be a bit of a controversial view on things, but I'll explain why. 
 

  1. This stat is the only stat you have direct control over
     
  2. This stat is the only stat that can have a direct relationship to your team winning / loosing a battle - now don't get me wrong, we've all had games where we've done 100k plus damage to loose, but if you look at your team in those losses, you'll see there average damage was quite low
     
  3. The more damage you do, the less HP the enemy has - the greater your influence to win the battle becomes.  

Personally, if i'm looking at a player who has say a 40% win rate, but has a much higher average damage than say some other players - I'll generally take them over someone who has a higher win rate - why, cause I know there doing everything they can in the situation there in. They are doing damage, obviously more information is needed at this point, but this is going outside of the stat's and more in to tangible play style / personality. 

Average damage to me says as an example. If the Average damage on the server is 90k for say Montana, and I'm doing 180k - I'm pretty sure that the player has a real handle on that ship, knows what there doing is getting them results and lets face it, they are now 'killing' a large portion of the enemies hp, that in some cases could be a couple of ships.

Please be aware, that I am aware that some ships have low damage output, when I talk average damage, it has to be seen in layers - ie: Overall and at ship level. 

I had initially typed a big response to this. But because the forum derped :etc_swear: and didn't publish my post or even save my response, and I can't be bothered to type it all out again, I am going to keep it brief. 

One fatal assumption you are making is that you are assuming all damage is equal. Depending on the circumstances, 10k damage in one match isn't the same as 10k damage in another match. There is also "useful" damage and "useless" damage. Useful damage is what wins games, useless damage doesn't. Problem with with average damage is that it doesn't differentiate between the two.

Edited by Thyaliad

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Deja Vu [Eurobeat Intensifies]

I've seen this same topic done over, and over, and over in the World of Tanks forums before I moved to this game. There is a good to excellent chance that if Wargaming made a World of No Stats game, people would still be trying desperately to claw at whatever metric(s) they can to seek some kind of validation of their own self-worth in a video game.

So let's get this out of the way first, you play a video game because hopefully you get some enjoyment out of it. For some individuals, it's going to be because they're fans of history, and for some people - it's because you get to drive a boat with big guns. Therefore, if you're logging into WoWS and your objective is to: Play the game and enjoy it - you're doing just fine. Live your life, and enjoy your pastimes. Nobody gives a damn about your stats unless you're trying out for a serious competitive clan, or you literally have nothing else going on in your existence (in which case, sucks to be you).

The above applies to the vast majority of players, who frankly don't even read the forums. I don't even technically read the forums properly, I'm here mostly for the memes.

 

Now, since you're still reading this - I can only assume that you do care about stats in one way or another. Also, you're probably one of the people embroiled in the never-ending war between "THE HAVES" and the "HAVE-NOTS". Either you're one of the warring factions, or you're an innocent bystander, I am talking about Neutral Citizens that are either Server Average, Above Average, or about to Ascend to become part of "THE HAVES" faction. This applied in World of Tanks, and it certainly applies here as well.

THE HAVES - Have outstanding Solo WR stats, I am talking 55% and above. If you're pulling 55+ in this game solo, props to you and thank you for the carry. I don't care what the prevailing opinion is about Solo WRs, but by Jupiter if you've made it this far in your WoWS career stats-wise, you probably cry every time ranked battles get taken out of rotation because you have to go peel potatoes in random battles.

THE HAVE-NOTS - People who are barely server average or lower (Anything up to 48%). We'll also include bots and AFKers here. If you're in this category, and reading this on the WoWS forum - there's hope for you yet (Keep trying, but TRY HARDER, please). Here's a protip - you don't want to be in the category that includes automated macros and people who literally leave their keyboard to watch anime whilst their game is running in the background.

THE NEUTRALS - People who are like 49 - 54% WR. I fall into this category. If you're reading this and you are part of stat purgatory, you have one job - take out your popcorn and watch the two factions shoot at each other. Admittedly, the side with blue/purple stats are more likely to land their shots, bounce incoming rounds, and citadel the other side. What one side lacks in accuracy, map awareness, and team play, however - they make up with sheer numbers alone. But let's be real, you probably don't really care because you're not awful enough that people will use your stats against you, but you're not prodigious enough to want to show off your stats to anyone anyway.

 

To answer the open-ended question in the OP:

My overall feeling about stats has not changed for years, which is:

Don't let statistics control your enjoyment of the game. Instead, control your own performance to enhance your enjoyment of the game.

Numbers by themselves are absolutely meaningless. The meaning one gets out of stats is purely how a random table of percentages is being used by the owner of said figures. The context of the individual matters.

If you as a player cares a lot about statistics, then use statistics strictly as a way of self-evaluation, and the only one that has and will matter is Solo WR%. Be honest with your own performance in a game, and see what you could have done differently to positively affect the game.

Sure, you'll have days where you will lose a string of games, they'll happen. Those awful DEFEATS in the results tab will stack up like a Jenga Tower even for the deepest purple Kraken. But in my very anecdotal experience, if you took the time to learn the game, and the ships you're naturally good at (or lean towards), eventually your VICTORIES will overtake those DEFEATS. I am actually living proof of this, and this is coming from someone that legit sails into islands (on manual) in 1 out of every 5 games he plays.

 

Can we go back to posting memes now?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, benlisquare said:

 

This is incorrect, given that there is nothing stopping an extremely dedicated player with mediocre skills from ranking out through sheer brute force. I have seen 42% WR players who have ranked out, simply because they have played over 600 ranked battles. If you play enough battles, eventually the stars will align, and you'll get carried enough matches in a row to reach rank 1.

who is those player? 42% reach rank 1? he must be skilled player with shitty MM! 

no matter how tenacious someone, you cannt reach rank 1 if you cannt get atleast +51% WR since you lose star when lose.... the exception is when you are top XP earner.....  and the top XP earner is not mediocre player.... not the unicum, maybe somewhat high average skill. 

and how did a noob past Rank 5? that is almost impossible! so if you get top XP earner in rank +5.... you must be a decent player!

some noob maybe got rank 12~10 for lucky win streak..... but past rank 5? LEL no.... 

 

also if someone do 600 battle to reach rank 1 againts competitive player, he must be experienced player :Smile_great:

 

salute for them who reach rank 1....

 

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49 minutes ago, Skarhabek said:

who is those player? 42% reach rank 1? he must be skilled player with shitty MM! 

no matter how tenacious someone, you cannt reach rank 1 if you cannt get atleast +51% WR since you lose star when lose.... the exception is when you are top XP earner.....  and the top XP earner is not mediocre player.... not the unicum, maybe somewhat high average skill. 

and how did a noob past Rank 5? that is almost impossible! so if you get top XP earner in rank +5.... you must be a decent player!

some noob maybe got rank 12~10 for lucky win streak..... but past rank 5? LEL no.... 

 

also if someone do 600 battle to reach rank 1 againts competitive player, he must be experienced player :Smile_great:

 

salute for them who reach rank 1....

 

YO(LO)NE

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15 minutes ago, drakon233 said:

YO(LO)NE

did he got 44% WR? if yes, it must be amazing!

i cannt open wows.number now, its never ending loading and bad gateaway

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55 minutes ago, Skarhabek said:

did he got 44% WR? if yes, it must be amazing!

i cannt open wows.number now, its never ending loading and bad gateaway

No he manages so get 48 or so wr iirc just by yoloing straight at the start of a game and then starting a new match with another t8 ship. Takes him anywhere between 500-1k games to rank out this way.

He's actually a unicum player but plays this way in ranked for some reason.

This is actually another insult to anyone with very low wr since this guy is able to almost get 50% wr just by yoloing every single game in ranked

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5 hours ago, Darkshaunz said:

Deja Vu [Eurobeat Intensifies]

I've seen this same topic done over, and over, and over in the World of Tanks forums before I moved to this game. There is a good to excellent chance that if Wargaming made a World of No Stats game, people would still be trying desperately to claw at whatever metric(s) they can to seek some kind of validation of their own self-worth in a video game.

So let's get this out of the way first, you play a video game because hopefully you get some enjoyment out of it. For some individuals, it's going to be because they're fans of history, and for some people - it's because you get to drive a boat with big guns. Therefore, if you're logging into WoWS and your objective is to: Play the game and enjoy it - you're doing just fine. Live your life, and enjoy your pastimes. Nobody gives a damn about your stats unless you're trying out for a serious competitive clan, or you literally have nothing else going on in your existence (in which case, sucks to be you).

The above applies to the vast majority of players, who frankly don't even read the forums. I don't even technically read the forums properly, I'm here mostly for the memes.

 

Now, since you're still reading this - I can only assume that you do care about stats in one way or another. Also, you're probably one of the people embroiled in the never-ending war between "THE HAVES" and the "HAVE-NOTS". Either you're one of the warring factions, or you're an innocent bystander, I am talking about Neutral Citizens that are either Server Average, Above Average, or about to Ascend to become part of "THE HAVES" faction. This applied in World of Tanks, and it certainly applies here as well.

THE HAVES - Have outstanding Solo WR stats, I am talking 55% and above. If you're pulling 55+ in this game solo, props to you and thank you for the carry. I don't care what the prevailing opinion is about Solo WRs, but by Jupiter if you've made it this far in your WoWS career stats-wise, you probably cry every time ranked battles get taken out of rotation because you have to go peel potatoes in random battles.

THE HAVE-NOTS - People who are barely server average or lower (Anything up to 48%). We'll also include bots and AFKers here. If you're in this category, and reading this on the WoWS forum - there's hope for you yet (Keep trying, but TRY HARDER, please). Here's a protip - you don't want to be in the category that includes automated macros and people who literally leave their keyboard to watch anime whilst their game is running in the background.

THE NEUTRALS - People who are like 49 - 54% WR. I fall into this category. If you're reading this and you are part of stat purgatory, you have one job - take out your popcorn and watch the two factions shoot at each other. Admittedly, the side with blue/purple stats are more likely to land their shots, bounce incoming rounds, and citadel the other side. What one side lacks in accuracy, map awareness, and team play, however - they make up with sheer numbers alone. But let's be real, you probably don't really care because you're not awful enough that people will use your stats against you, but you're not prodigious enough to want to show off your stats to anyone anyway.

 

To answer the open-ended question in the OP:

My overall feeling about stats has not changed for years, which is:

Don't let statistics control your enjoyment of the game. Instead, control your own performance to enhance your enjoyment of the game.

Numbers by themselves are absolutely meaningless. The meaning one gets out of stats is purely how a random table of percentages is being used by the owner of said figures. The context of the individual matters.

If you as a player cares a lot about statistics, then use statistics strictly as a way of self-evaluation, and the only one that has and will matter is Solo WR%. Be honest with your own performance in a game, and see what you could have done differently to positively affect the game.

Sure, you'll have days where you will lose a string of games, they'll happen. Those awful DEFEATS in the results tab will stack up like a Jenga Tower even for the deepest purple Kraken. But in my very anecdotal experience, if you took the time to learn the game, and the ships you're naturally good at (or lean towards), eventually your VICTORIES will overtake those DEFEATS. I am actually living proof of this, and this is coming from someone that legit sails into islands (on manual) in 1 out of every 5 games he plays.

 

Can we go back to posting memes now?

 

 

 

 

 

 

In Fact you've hit the nail on the head - 

Stat's mean nothing to the Individual, yet the Forum population seems to love pulling out Win / Loss and all sorts of other stats to support there arguments. of superiority. 

Personally, whilst I love stats and numbers, they are meaningless without context and other factors behind them. See the above couple of posts to see my point there as well. 

The main reason I created this thread was one, to get the discussion of Stat's out of the way and two, reinforce the concept that stat bashing is not acceptable - because you have no idea what other factors are driving the way a person plays. 

Additionally, if you are using stats to support claim's of how to do something as opposed to how to not do something then keep it impersonal!  

I use stat's to see how I'm going, am I improving, where and what I can do better. But I would be just as happy for Wargaming to turn off stats all together :P at least the ones that the players seem to be focusing in on as a way to say they are better than someone else.

Stat bashing is toxic

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13 hours ago, LawrenceXVIII said:

WR Arent important! I mean you know you going to end up banged in a losing or inexperience team incapable of coordination. Last time mine was 45 ( because of those noob teams ) now i currently 52 ( because of struggle on stupid teams ).

Currently now I'm just staying in-between 50.

 

You just look at Battles instead. Battles are crucial for those who are experienced in Bote games. Like example ,

0 - 900 : A Meh to levels.

+ 1000 - 3000 : Meaning that you known it quite awhile ( unless if you are Alpha or CBT , you don't need to overlooked it )

+ 3001 - 6000 : Meaning you know how to bote.

 

But overall even though you are such a good Stat player, you still sucks anyway. Even to Elite Clan players.

Its a matter HOW you Enjoying it. Or some bote that you are Superior of.

I think you're way off with your XP values...

2000 is a ripper game and over 3000 is an insane game...

Don't ask me how I got 3606 with Naga-chan without breaking 158k damage...

(It was caps, I was the last one left and capped like 3 times solo)

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2 hours ago, S4pp3R said:

I think you're way off with your XP values...

I believe he is talking about total battles played, not XP earned per battle.  A somewhat flawed premise, I think we can mostly agree!

 

Stat bashing is toxic

I don't think you'll find many people disagreeing with you there, but I would say that people often disagree on what constitutes 'stat bashing' (and we have currently six pages of another thread to prove it!).  Suffice it to say that stat bashing implies using someone's stats against them in a negative way, rather than a constructive way.  There are plenty of constructive conclusions that can be gained from analysing an individual's stats.

I think you're changing the subject though - this thread is clearly about what stats tell you about a player, rather than the use of stats to be negative about a player.  Pivoting from the thread's first post doesn't change how flawed it is.

 

Darkshaunz nailed it btw.  :Smile_great:

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Something else to consider is ship type used. For example I played a lot of top tier DD but rarely did a lot of damage. Since WTR is 50% based on damage that wont help my stats. However what it doesn't show is when I spent half a game keeping 3 enemy BB spotted while staying dark, or when I smoked 3 team mates and saved them from certain death or enabled them to inflict massive amounts of pain.

For example, my best damage from spotting in gearing is just over 200k yet from memory I don't think I did a lot of damage and only got the one cap.

So my stats say I'm below average but in reality am I really? Am I the type of DD player you want on your team? Pretty hard to tell that from stats alone.

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11 hours ago, Darkshaunz said:
Spoiler

 

Deja Vu [Eurobeat Intensifies]

I've seen this same topic done over, and over, and over in the World of Tanks forums before I moved to this game. There is a good to excellent chance that if Wargaming made a World of No Stats game, people would still be trying desperately to claw at whatever metric(s) they can to seek some kind of validation of their own self-worth in a video game.

So let's get this out of the way first, you play a video game because hopefully you get some enjoyment out of it. For some individuals, it's going to be because they're fans of history, and for some people - it's because you get to drive a boat with big guns. Therefore, if you're logging into WoWS and your objective is to: Play the game and enjoy it - you're doing just fine. Live your life, and enjoy your pastimes. Nobody gives a damn about your stats unless you're trying out for a serious competitive clan, or you literally have nothing else going on in your existence (in which case, sucks to be you).

The above applies to the vast majority of players, who frankly don't even read the forums. I don't even technically read the forums properly, I'm here mostly for the memes.

 

Now, since you're still reading this - I can only assume that you do care about stats in one way or another. Also, you're probably one of the people embroiled in the never-ending war between "THE HAVES" and the "HAVE-NOTS". Either you're one of the warring factions, or you're an innocent bystander, I am talking about Neutral Citizens that are either Server Average, Above Average, or about to Ascend to become part of "THE HAVES" faction. This applied in World of Tanks, and it certainly applies here as well.

THE HAVES - Have outstanding Solo WR stats, I am talking 55% and above. If you're pulling 55+ in this game solo, props to you and thank you for the carry. I don't care what the prevailing opinion is about Solo WRs, but by Jupiter if you've made it this far in your WoWS career stats-wise, you probably cry every time ranked battles get taken out of rotation because you have to go peel potatoes in random battles.

THE HAVE-NOTS - People who are barely server average or lower (Anything up to 48%). We'll also include bots and AFKers here. If you're in this category, and reading this on the WoWS forum - there's hope for you yet (Keep trying, but TRY HARDER, please). Here's a protip - you don't want to be in the category that includes automated macros and people who literally leave their keyboard to watch anime whilst their game is running in the background.

THE NEUTRALS - People who are like 49 - 54% WR. I fall into this category. If you're reading this and you are part of stat purgatory, you have one job - take out your popcorn and watch the two factions shoot at each other. Admittedly, the side with blue/purple stats are more likely to land their shots, bounce incoming rounds, and citadel the other side. What one side lacks in accuracy, map awareness, and team play, however - they make up with sheer numbers alone. But let's be real, you probably don't really care because you're not awful enough that people will use your stats against you, but you're not prodigious enough to want to show off your stats to anyone anyway.

 

To answer the open-ended question in the OP:

My overall feeling about stats has not changed for years, which is:

Don't let statistics control your enjoyment of the game. Instead, control your own performance to enhance your enjoyment of the game.

Numbers by themselves are absolutely meaningless. The meaning one gets out of stats is purely how a random table of percentages is being used by the owner of said figures. The context of the individual matters.

If you as a player cares a lot about statistics, then use statistics strictly as a way of self-evaluation, and the only one that has and will matter is Solo WR%. Be honest with your own performance in a game, and see what you could have done differently to positively affect the game.

Sure, you'll have days where you will lose a string of games, they'll happen. Those awful DEFEATS in the results tab will stack up like a Jenga Tower even for the deepest purple Kraken. But in my very anecdotal experience, if you took the time to learn the game, and the ships you're naturally good at (or lean towards), eventually your VICTORIES will overtake those DEFEATS. I am actually living proof of this, and this is coming from someone that legit sails into islands (on manual) in 1 out of every 5 games he plays.

 

Can we go back to posting memes now?

 

 

I really love ur reply mate.

Some people too paranoid about their virtual statistic which end up with frustrating and destroy their motivation on their game; or use it as a punching bag to troll the others.

12 hours ago, Darkshaunz said:

Can we go back to posting memes now?

I'll join ur bandwagon anytime. Lead the way.

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1 hour ago, Moggytwo said:

I believe he is talking about total battles played, not XP earned per battle.  A somewhat flawed premise, I think we can mostly agree!

 

I don't think you'll find many people disagreeing with you there, but I would say that people often disagree on what constitutes 'stat bashing' (and we have currently six pages of another thread to prove it!).  Suffice it to say that stat bashing implies using someone's stats against them in a negative way, rather than a constructive way.  There are plenty of constructive conclusions that can be gained from analysing an individual's stats.

I think you're changing the subject though - this thread is clearly about what stats tell you about a player, rather than the use of stats to be negative about a player.  Pivoting from the thread's first post doesn't change how flawed it is.

 

Darkshaunz nailed it btw.  :Smile_great:

Hehe nice pick up there Moggy, your previous comments see below"
 

Quote

Now reading through the first post in this thread it is instantly apparent that the OP does not have a significant understanding of what it takes to win the game.  A quote like "By in large (sic), an individual's play cannot statistically influence a battle" simply shows that the OP can not see the plays needed to win the game - where the player has to be and what they need to be doing to ensure a win.  A player that knows the key plays that need to be made, and is then able to execute them successfully, will have a crucial effect on the team's chance of success.

You have that wrong, I totally understand and get that there are x factors involved, someone who has enough skill / understanding of there ship and knows how to use the map and ship they are in completely changes the maths behind the chance to win and loss. But as I stated in the original post, and as you've pointed out which was my actual original point. 

Stat's don't really mean much in the context of a player, yes they can give an indication of what that person is like - but people learn, develop and grow with information and experience. 

The whole point for this thread wasn't 'hey this is what i think and your all wrong' it is very much a 'Everyone throws around stats saying that they are the be all and end all of the discussion' when there not, and we have plenty of evidence to show that it's simply not the case as well as 'What do stats mean to the players' I'm getting a vibe that half think w/l is all important and another half think it's avg damage / exp 

Personally - I have and always will be of the opinion that statistics mean nothing to the individual.... and once again I only need to look at the medical and sporting fields to show that being the case :) 

But once again, good pick up lol

 

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Just now, tc1259 said:

The whole point for this thread wasn't 'hey this is what i think and your all wrong' it is very much a 'Everyone throws around stats saying that they are the be all and end all of the discussion' when there not, and we have plenty of evidence to show that it's simply not the case as well as 'What do stats mean to the players' I'm getting a vibe that half think w/l is all important and another half think it's avg damage / exp 

that's the problem with this forum, whenever anyone new comes here it's almost always about "xxx is OP" "XXX is unplayable" "XXX i cant carry boo hoo hoo"  and the things that they are complaining about is almost always because of their own incompetence, so when the forum members who actually gives a shit and reply to them "gid gud“ and how to do it, they will always take it as a insult because ofc they are right and you are wrong and the universes is spinning as usual, and as usual they will say that "i know how to play this ship" or in one case "you obviously havnt played much in high tier" to me on a post about how Montana is UP and yamato over-match is OP(i have more battles in the Montana alone then he has in total).so, after helpfully teaching him how to easily kill a yamato because yamato is shit against montanas

so why other thing to do in this case other then to bring out stats? if he wont listen to reason and logic then let the numbers speak for themselves

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4 minutes ago, tc1259 said:

Stat's don't really mean much in the context of a player, yes they can give an indication of what that person is like - but people learn, develop and grow with information and experience. 

HOW!! I just dont get how you conclude that without any actual evidence. On the other hand I have given some evidence using my own and some other people's stats and explaining why and how those stats differ, and you didnt even acknowledge all that and just moved on to your own conclusion. Stats show exactly how well someone is playing. If you keep winning over a large number of games, its your achievement because the only thing constant in those hundreds or thousands of games is YOU. And if you consistently lose its your fault as the only constant again, is YOU. And if you claim that people are developing and growing, we can always see the recent stats. I'm not saying we should shame people based on their stats, I'm saying that if a 40% winrate player ever claims to be a better player than me and just a victim of rng, I'll just laugh my behind off.
And because we cant actually watch every player playing the game to judge his skills, stats are the closest thing to go by to measure their skill and experience. This is why an informative post by SUZY receives much more attention and approval than some random player talking about radar charles martel.

25 minutes ago, tc1259 said:

I'm getting a vibe that half think w/l is all important and another half think it's avg damage / exp 

And I'll bet my liver that the half that thinks avg damage is more important have much lower stats and skills than the other half. Pretty much every good player I have talked to stands by w/l as the most accurate judge of a person's skills. And I have talked to players from top clans from EU and NA as well.
Everyone thinks their opinion counts as much as everyone else's. But this is not a democracy, this is a game. Just like a doctor's opinion holds much more weight when it comes to diseases compared to your homeopathy enthusiast aunt, a game related opinion holds more credibility when coming from a 60% wr player compared to some 45% winrate player who thinks opinions dont have to be backed up by facts.

 

As for stat bashing, yes it is toxic. But do you know what else is toxic? Any other kind of direct or indirect insult, like calling people who you don't agree with 'grinches', 'no-life amatuers' etc. And yet those insults slip by unnoticed while stat based insults rustles up everyone's jimmies enough to create several forum threads about it, apparently because people actually care about their bad stats more than they would like to admit. I only ever respond to insults by pulling out stats because we are on the internet and we really don't know each other irl to make any other kind of valid insults. As I said before, stat bashing is just insults backed up by data, and I am never the first one to throw insults; you may go through all the history to check

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15 minutes ago, Adm_Kunkka said:

HOW!! I just dont get how you conclude that without any actual evidence. On the other hand I have given some evidence using my own and some other people's stats and explaining why and how those stats differ, and you didnt even acknowledge all that and just moved on to your own conclusion. Stats show exactly how well someone is playing. If you keep winning over a large number of games, its your achievement because the only thing constant in those hundreds or thousands of games is YOU. And if you consistently lose its your fault as the only constant again, is YOU. And if you claim that people are developing and growing, we can always see the recent stats. I'm not saying we should shame people based on their stats, I'm saying that if a 40% winrate player ever claims to be a better player than me and just a victim of rng, I'll just laugh my behind off.
And because we cant actually watch every player playing the game to judge his skills, stats are the closest thing to go by to measure their skill and experience. This is why an informative post by SUZY receives much more attention and approval than some random player talking about radar charles martel.

And I'll bet my liver that the half that thinks avg damage is more important have much lower stats and skills than the other half. Pretty much every good player I have talked to stands by w/l as the most accurate judge of a person's skills. And I have talked to players from top clans from EU and NA as well.
Everyone thinks their opinion counts as much as everyone else's. But this is not a democracy, this is a game. Just like a doctor's opinion holds much more weight when it comes to diseases compared to your homeopathy enthusiast aunt, a game related opinion holds more credibility when coming from a 60% wr player compared to some 45% winrate player who thinks opinions dont have to be backed up by facts.

 

As for stat bashing, yes it is toxic. But do you know what else is toxic? Any other kind of direct or indirect insult, like calling people who you don't agree with 'grinches', 'no-life amatuers' etc. And yet those insults slip by unnoticed while stat based insults rustles up everyone's jimmies enough to create several forum threads about it, apparently because people actually care about their bad stats more than they would like to admit. I only ever respond to insults by pulling out stats because we are on the internet and we really don't know each other irl to make any other kind of valid insults. As I said before, stat bashing is just insults backed up by data, and I am never the first one to throw insults; you may go through all the history to check

usually starts off with comments like "no life" "troll" and "elitist" 

gee i wonder who said all that?

Edited by drakon233

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In short, "Stats don't mean anything" is not true. Stats mean a lot by themselves, even though never accurate. Any statistician knows that statistics help with approximation and projection, does not find a concrete result. However, how you approach stats is totally your choice.

As @drakon233 pointed out the typical victims of stat-bashing, when I was new to the forums (or to the game in general two years ago), I also used to do that. "Waaaa HE is so OP", "broken this",  "broken that" and yes I got responses like "git gud" or "you need to play more". Which was true. That actually helped me a lot to dig deeper into mechanics, learn from better players by asking a lot of questions etc. That's why no one ever saw me posting blames on teams or whining about +/- 2 MM or How Tears of Desert and Ocean should be removed etc. Because as you play the game you gather experience, and THE ONLY REAL WAY YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE IMPROVING IS BY LOOKING AT YOUR OWN STATS. If you say "Stats are useless" you are denying yourself from a lot of information that would push you to become a better player otherwise.

Now, this is not a problem if you do not want to improve or you want to hide behind "I play for FUN" statements. Yes, then stats do not matter.

 

For the last part, I will try to include a chart and Ill try to see if it reflects what I have been doing recently.

5a4c6ca3d22be_Screenshotfrom2018-01-0311-37-16.thumb.png.b8b383142bd03b1d4df5720e0032ac03.png

I have been testing recently, damage vs winrate. First of all, notice that my Personal Rating is always in the increase, this indicates that I have been improving, may be slowly, but still, improving. I am not a very fast learner and I am not a kid anymore so I have grew a bit dumber with aging. This tells me, regardless of whether this metric is flawed or not, I am doing something better.

Now notice Average exp, I do not use premium time, never bought it, and due to long work hours, my average games per day is pretty low. Although the chart shows a huge ups and duwns, the numbers are only slightly different, so Id call it a bit down-grading, but still somewhat consistent, since all my games on last few months were in stock ships or retraining captain and you can see that reflects in the average exp charts.

Lets come to Winrate vs Damage and you can see it here clearly, the damage is already somewhat decent considering I do not play CV, and half of my games are probably US DD or cruisers. You can see a climb on average damage, while a massive(? not really) drop in winrate. Because I did that on purpose, I said, screw teamplay, I'm gonna farm damage, and that's what I got. That's your GREAT solo mentality right there. Yes, last 60 days my solo WR was somewhere over 70%. Although sample size is too small, I did a lot of damage, (and just that) and since I played solo now I will claim "Boo hoo I'm a great solo player I carry", while I knew all I was doing was farming damage and kills and did nothing to support the sinking allies. After becoming ST, 90% of my test games were solo, sadly I cannot show those stats.

Also many of the players with purple stats are rerolls. I am a super purple on NA even playing solo, because I am no longer a new player. But does that mean good stats mean nothing? No, not just anyone can attain a good stat, you have to be a good player. So by logic, good stat show that you are a good player. Simple as that.

Stats are important. It doesn't matter if you think otherwise. They still remain important.

P.S. I think statbashing is not part of this thread, this thread was about what stats actually mean, if anything at all. And this is my opinion.

Edited by icy_phoenix
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well not all ship created equal and not like player play all ship equally

some ships have much much higher impact on the match than others. Like aircraft carrier for example

a properly played radar cruiser have higher match impact than lets say, a french cruiser that dont over anything aside from damage

 

to put it simply some ships can carry the game easier than others.

IJN DD might have it a bit harder to carry the game than others DD. but the line sure can be lot of fun for some people so they played it a lot more than other line

 

so IMO, the Exp earned would be the best indicator of Player skills

if they are often or even being consistently found themself on top 3 of score screen, regardless win/loss - then its a good indicator that the player were good

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