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LordTyphoon

French T10 Turd

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Unless I'm mistaken, it has a sigma a 2.0, so...it'll have 431mm guns that are accurate, even if there are only 8 guns. Plus that nitrous! On a BB! :cap_haloween: 

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Some data miners claimed this gun to be punching AF. One even boldly claimed that only when outside the range of these 431mm can a Yamato avoid getting citadelled. The gun data mined was IIRC 1320kg, approx. 2.6k Krupp, 840mps MV, 0.35 wind drag. The shell weight and muzzle velocity was excellent, Krupp was good, but the wind drag was IMO a bit too much for T10. (That value is close to Montana’s 0.352, while other T10 guns are more close to 0.29)

But let us not forget that Graf Spee also promises to citadel every cruiser at any possible range. But in practice, does it perform well? It is rare even in scenarios.

Search your feelings, you know it’s an ultra Spee…

Oh I have a bad feeling about this!

(Is Star Wars jokes a bit too old?

Edited by HMS_Swiftsure_08

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49 minutes ago, EJL said:

Unless I'm mistaken, it has a sigma a 2.0, so...it'll have 431mm guns that are accurate, even if there are only 8 guns. Plus that nitrous! On a BB! :cap_haloween: 

 

But Yamato has 2.1 sigma, 9 guns, and larger in calibre with lol-pen capability. The French primary armament is worse in every way (unless you value turret traverse).

 

 

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17 minutes ago, LordTyphoon said:

 

But Yamato has 2.1 sigma, 9 guns, and larger in calibre with lol-pen capability. The French primary armament is worse in every way (unless you value turret traverse).

 

Eh, I don't expect it to lol pen as good as the Yamato guns do. Even the Conqueror's 457mm guns can't lolpen that much either.

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3 hours ago, LordTyphoon said:

WG seriously? I have serious doubt this design will ever be worthy of Tier 10.

 

WG please give us the 16 x 15inch guns. 

 

https://thedailybounce.net/2017/11/27/world-of-warships-supertest-french-battleship-france-tier-x/

You'll be surprised I think Typhoon - these guns will have the best penetration in game by some margin, and the AP damage is only slightly below the Yamato.  They will get citadels where no other gun could.  2.05 sigma is also going to be almost indistinguishable from Yamato's 2.1, so they should be very accurate (they'll need to be with only 8 rifles).

They should reward quality aim very highly indeed.

 

Eh, I don't expect it to lol pen as good as the Yamato guns do. Even the Conqueror's 457mm guns can't lolpen that much either.

I think you have a slight misunderstanding of what lol pen means.  It refers to overmatching, which is when a shell is of sufficiently high calibre compared to armour thickness so that it ignores the bounce mechanic and punches straight through.  The overmatch ratio is 14.3, so given that the bows of all BB's T8-10 are 32 mm, this requires a rifle calibre of 458mm to overmatch.  This means that only the Yamato can lol pen a BB bow.  It also means that all high tier cruiser bows (25-27mm) can be overmatched by all high tier BB guns.  Note the armour thickness is still calculated using the high angle for fusing purposes (all AP shells need a minimum armour thickness to fuse or they won't explode), which is why DD's get full AP pens while being overmatched.

The normal penetration mechanics are quite different again and a lot more complex, but basically it comes down to pen of the shell at a given range versus apparent armour thickness (which depends on armour thickness combined with angle of armour struck).  High pen shells are more able to punch through a high armour thickness, although will bounce if the armour angle is too steep and the shells don't overmatch.

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2 hours ago, HMS_Swiftsure_08 said:

Search your feelings, you know it’s an ultra Spee…

Oh I have a bad feeling about this!

(Is Star Wars jokes a bit too old?

 

Nope, works perfectly for me.

(Wait, I AM old, maybe that's why !! ) 

:Smile_trollface:

Ordrazz

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Hashidate , Orlan , Chengan and Hermelin - Ultra Newbie Spee

Mikasa - Super Newbie Spee

Katori - Newbie Spee

Yubari - Noob Spee

Mutsuki - Weak Spee

Fubuki - Average Spee

Admiral Graf Spee - Normal Spee

HSF Admiral Graf Spee - Weaboo Spee

Gascogne - Super Spee

France - Ultra Spee

Edited by LawrenceXVIII

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2 hours ago, LawrenceXVIII said:

Hashidate , Orlan , Chengan and Hermelin - Ultra Newbie Spee

Mikasa - Super Newbie Spee

Katori - Newbie Spee

Yubari - Noob Spee

Mutsuki - Weak Spee

Fubuki - Average Spee

Admiral Graf Spee - Normal Spee

HSF Admiral Graf Spee - Weaboo Spee

Gascogne - Super Spee

France - Ultra Spee

do you really want like this

24068829_1563425907074754_91277534640289

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On 28/11/2017 at 8:11 AM, EJL said:

Unless I'm mistaken, it has a sigma a 2.0, so...it'll have 431mm guns that are accurate, even if there are only 8 guns. Plus that nitrous! On a BB! :cap_haloween: 

2.0 sigma, same range as yamato with a max dispersion of 322 [content removed] meters, worse turning circle radius (2nd to GK) Hell, even the alsace has better dispersion and same sigma but with 380mm riffles...

Profanity. Post edited, user sanctioned.

~amade

Edited by amade

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There's something unique and frightening about France that I haven't seen mentioned yet. She has a devastating secondary suite, and most of the guns can fire directly forward. A bow-on, speed-boosted secondary monster will be interesting to see in action.

 

"Secondary Cinder-ella" is here and the World (of Warships) is going to burn. Well, maybe Conqueror is still going to be better at that. We'll see.

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Here's some numbers, without any skills or flags:

 

Grosser Kurfurst full broadside secondaries: 279k damage per minute, 10 fires per minute.

                 France bow-on only secondaries: 261k damage per minute, 14 fires per minute.

               France full broadside secondaries: 366k damage per minute, 19 fires per minute.

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18 hours ago, Unraveler said:

There's something unique and frightening about France that I haven't seen mentioned yet. She has a devastating secondary suite, and most of the guns can fire directly forward. A bow-on, speed-boosted secondary monster will be interesting to see in action.

 

"Secondary Cinder-ella" is here and the World (of Warships) is going to burn. Well, maybe Conqueror is still going to be better at that. We'll see.

still

German BB inherit 1/4 penetration on the secondary. does the french does ?

 

and T10 secondary battleship is.....................................

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Don't know the French secondaries penetration, so I'm just assuming they're the normal 1/6. In any case, that won't affect the incredible fire-starting.

 

For damage-per-minute numbers, though:

 

Grosser Kurfurst full broadside
128mm: 75,000 damage to 31mm plate (41mm with IFHE).
150mm: 18,133 damage to 37mm plate (48mm with IFHE).

 

France full broadside
127mm: 72,000 damage to 20mm plate (27mm with IFHE).
152mm: 49,867 damage to 24mm plate (32mm with IFHE).

 

France bow-on
127mm: 54,000 damage to 20mm plate (27mm with IFHE).
152mm: 33,000 damage to 24mm plate (32mm with IFHE).

 

Note: I've used actual penetration damage here (1/3 rated).

 

Against Battleships

From this, we can see that without IFHE they're both quite poor at penetrating enemy Battleship hulls (thinnest possible plates being 32mm at high tier). Only the German 150mm has a chance, but even then many opponents will have decks and hull sections of 38mm or higher. Also worth noting that the 150mm batteries don't have a big damage output on Kurfurst, since there's only four guns per side. For superstructure hits (19mm plates), both these ships will penetrate with all their weaponry without issue. France is clearly superior overall, and that's before even considering the fire-starting (almost double that of Kurfurst) and forward-facing secondaries.

 

With IFHE on both ships, however, things start to look a little better for Grosser Kurfurst. Her primary batteries (128mm) jump from superstructure-only capability to being able to penetrate most bows and decks (USN fleet will really feel this). France sees zero benefit on her 127mm batteries, but the 152s reach 32mm penetration which is a solid improvement. With so many variables to consider, I think it's fair to say that both these ships are at least comparable in raw damage output when running IFHE. Again, though, France is still miles ahead in fire-starting (16 fires p/m vs 8 fires p/m, with IFHE penalties) and secondary arc flexibility.

 

Against Cruisers

Now Kurfurst has the advantage with all guns surpassing the 25mm - and even the fairly common 30mm - threshold of Cruiser plates. France is at her weakest here, with her guns failing to penetrate any hull sections (just like in the previous Battleship comparison) and fires being less of a threat to Cruisers. On the other hand, there's probably a better way of dealing with enemy Cruisers than relying on your secondaries... Or so I've been told. Anyway, Grosser Kurfurst has the better secondaries here without question.

 

But only when stock. France with IFHE turns the tables on Cruiser armour, suddenly besting the common 25mm and 27mm plates, and the 152mm batteries passing the 30mm threshold as well. What this means is that she effectively surpasses Kurfurst in raw damage output against Cruiser opponents.

 

Against Destroyers

The 19mm plates most Destroyers possess are going to provide precisely zero protection from these two monster secondary suites. While France's fires aren't much use here, neither is Kurfurst's enhanced penetration. France maintains her lead in raw damage quite comfortably.

 

Against Aircraft Carriers

While tales of Aircraft Carriers are often whispered amongst frightened crewmembers, most captains have long since dismissed these mythical beasts as pure fantasy.

 

 

I found it interesting how IFHE benefited both these ships but in quite different ways. I'm looking forward to testing France - will her armour withstand brawling? Will her main guns be too weak? Will her Speed Boost merely get me killed first in every battle? We shall see!

Edited by Unraveler

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how about secondary accuracy of the french ? which quite important parameter of secondary performence

I read WoWReplay blog before, that Bismarck surpass GK in term of avrg secondaries fired.

but GK apparantly have better accuracy with 18-55% shoot hit the target. montana were like twice as worse in term of accuracy

 

While DPM and fire chance on paper quite good, secondaries that have long air time  (Like USN) would struggle to hit moving target

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There's probably still a few patches until we can try it out on Public Test, unfortunately. The whole French BB line seems very heavy on Secondary Battery firepower (raw DPM, at least) so maybe it's their theme - high speed and powerful secondaries? If so, they could be pretty fun.

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4 hours ago, Unraveler said:

Don't know the French secondaries penetration, so I'm just assuming they're the normal 1/6. In any case, that won't affect the incredible fire-starting.

 

For damage-per-minute numbers, though:

 

Grosser Kurfurst full broadside
128mm: 75,000 damage to 31mm plate (41mm with IFHE).
150mm: 18,133 damage to 37mm plate (48mm with IFHE).

 

France full broadside
127mm: 72,000 damage to 20mm plate (27mm with IFHE).
152mm: 49,867 damage to 24mm plate (32mm with IFHE).

 

France bow-on
127mm: 54,000 damage to 20mm plate (27mm with IFHE).
152mm: 33,000 damage to 24mm plate (32mm with IFHE).

 

Note: I've used actual penetration damage here (1/3 rated).

 

Against Battleships

From this, we can see that without IFHE they're both quite poor at penetrating enemy Battleship hulls (thinnest possible plates being 32mm at high tier). Only the German 150mm has a chance, but even then many opponents will have decks and hull sections of 38mm or higher. Also worth noting that the 150mm batteries don't have a big damage output on Kurfurst, since there's only four guns per side. For superstructure hits (19mm plates), both these ships will penetrate with all their weaponry without issue. France is clearly superior overall, and that's before even considering the fire-starting (almost double that of Kurfurst) and forward-facing secondaries.

 

With IFHE on both ships, however, things start to look a little better for Grosser Kurfurst. Her primary batteries (128mm) jump from superstructure-only capability to being able to penetrate most bows and decks (USN fleet will really feel this). France sees zero benefit on her 127mm batteries, but the 152s reach 32mm penetration which is a solid improvement. With so many variables to consider, I think it's fair to say that both these ships are at least comparable in raw damage output when running IFHE. Again, though, France is still miles ahead in fire-starting (16 fires p/m vs 8 fires p/m, with IFHE penalties) and secondary arc flexibility.

 

Against Cruisers

Now Kurfurst has the advantage with all guns surpassing the 25mm - and even the fairly common 30mm - threshold of Cruiser plates. France is at her weakest here, with her guns failing to penetrate any hull sections (just like in the previous Battleship comparison) and fires being less of a threat to Cruisers. On the other hand, there's probably a better way of dealing with enemy Cruisers than relying on your secondaries... Or so I've been told. Anyway, Grosser Kurfurst has the better secondaries here without question.

 

But only when stock. France with IFHE turns the tables on Cruiser armour, suddenly besting the common 25mm and 27mm plates, and the 152mm batteries passing the 30mm threshold as well. What this means is that she effectively surpasses Kurfurst in raw damage output against Cruiser opponents.

 

Against Destroyers

The 19mm plates most Destroyers possess are going to provide precisely zero protection from these two monster secondary suites. While France's fires aren't much use here, neither is Kurfurst's enhanced penetration. France maintains her lead in raw damage quite comfortably.

 

Against Aircraft Carriers

While tales of Aircraft Carriers are often whispered amongst frightened crewmembers, most captains have long since dismissed these mythical beasts as pure fantasy.

 

 

I found it interesting how IFHE benefited both these ships but in quite different ways. I'm looking forward to testing France - will her armour withstand brawling? Will her main guns be too weak? Will her Speed Boost merely get me killed first in every battle? We shall see!

Interestingly, KM BB guns have a penetration calculating formula unlike CA/CL ones

BB formula: 1/4caliber, rounded, and minus one

Take the example of 406mm, that is 406/4=101.5 rounded to 102, and 102-1=101, which results in it’s HE unable to penetrate Minotaur’s 101mm main belt. This formula is for KM BB main&Spee main&150/128secondaries

KM CA/CL formula does not have the minus one step, which is probably done to allow 203mm have 51mm alpha piercing value and penetrate 50mm plating.

 

Oh… GM3D and wowsft stats claimed 95mm for 380mm and 102 for 406mm respectively (which is the result of cruiser formula), but my testing of 406 GK vs Minotaur still ends up no HE citadel.

Edited by HMS_Swiftsure_08

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