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DD captain Mains may have a valid Complaint

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1 hour ago, FishyPower said:

 

But the thing is, your maneuverability doesn't do anything. At 10km, you can expect to eat a salvo for AP shells. Plus, 5 seconds is a reasonable time to escape from detection, but a BB can switch targets with 5 secs. It doesn't help when you hide in your smoke cause the enemy DD is also there in cap with you, then all of a sudden, radar and you die. I know radar is pretty hard to use, but bloody hell, the radars at high tiers are [content removed] . 10km detection range + the 3km that a DD is typically away from his fleet. That's pretty safe a distance already.

 

Radar is a separate issue, but as for BB's hitting DD's at 10 km and out ... a DD would have to be pretty unlucky/stupid not to dodge effectively.

But my greater point is playing DDs is all about risk management. Contest a cap against an enemy DD who is well supported by his teammates .. that's inherently a high stakes gamble, and not always wise. The game mechanics have to be able to punish a DD who loses the bet that he or she will not be spotted, without that players who more carefully calculate those risks are not rewarded for that care.

 

Quote updated.

~amade

Edited by amade
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I know BB vs DD is probably a sensitive issue but I tend to agree with Business6. Give this a thought. I know its hard to listen to other's opinions, but what he says here is not illogical. Or just watch the video for fun! (After 2 minute mark).

 

 

Like I said before, yes, larger caliber guns against DDs will always be a problem. Once you get WG to remove BB AP pen against DDs, you will start riot for removing RN CL AP pen against DDs probably. So this will never stop. Which also means, this is probably not the best solution. And I am pretty sure BB hits are probably on #3 for the source of incoming damage against DDs, but clearly its the end of the world right now.

(34% of my games are on DDs).

 

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Until I read this thread I haven't actually given a thought to shell type use against destroyers before. Often times I just unload whatever is already in the barrels off at the enemy, then decide if there's a need to switch. Battleship guns are mostly accurate enough to deal some substantial damage to destroyers most of the time anyways. For me, HE is reserved for targets I cannot inflict significant damage on with AP (or for BBs that use their DCP too soon).

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my oppinion were same

 

Pen to DD is fine

Anomaly Pen like 1 shell somehow deal 7k Damage is the one that need to get fixed

 

Beside cruiser or even BB HE sometimes deal 0 damage to destroyer

it wreck module but deal no damage. HE itself is not 100% reliable ammo choice for that very reason

this mostly ignored by player. but as discusion about this topic heat up.

BB mains would start questioning would that is realy fine or something that  would somewhat lead to HE become dominant ammo type that I personaly dont want to see

Edited by humusz

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8 hours ago, icy_phoenix said:

I know BB vs DD is probably a sensitive issue but I tend to agree with Business6. Give this a thought. I know its hard to listen to other's opinions, but what he says here is not illogical. Or just watch the video for fun! (After 2 minute mark).


...

 

Like I said before, yes, larger caliber guns against DDs will always be a problem. Once you get WG to remove BB AP pen against DDs, you will start riot for removing RN CL AP pen against DDs probably. So this will never stop. Which also means, this is probably not the best solution. And I am pretty sure BB hits are probably on #3 for the source of incoming damage against DDs, but clearly its the end of the world right now.

(34% of my games are on DDs).

 

I agree with much of what he had to say as well.

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12 hours ago, Rina_Pon said:

My view on this is a little different.

If you are a DD, you should learn to expect an unhappy time if you end up detected at business end of a BB's main turrets. It doesn't really matter if those 16" shells are HE or AP, your only hope is that you get lucky: the shells either miss, or, for AP, pass clean through... which they might, or, especially coming through the ship bow to stern, might not.

The game mechanics are fair and realistic as they are: BB's can take you out with whatever they have in the barrel, but HE gives a small advantage. A DD should not be made impervious to AP shells. That would be terrible. A DD's defense is concealment, and to a lesser extent, small size and maneuverability. Once the heavy shells start connecting you done messed up and that should be the end of you.

Fully agree with this.  A 16" shell hitting a destroyer should absolutely do catastrophic (5k) damage if it manages to fuse.

Also think about cruisers for a second - although they have more hitpoints; not only are they more easily to detect, they are larger, less maneuverable and  have these things called citadels.

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Overpens would still do significant damage to DDs so I don't see the problem? Right now 1 stray AP shell can knock out 25% of your hp, AP is better against DDs than HE right now which is just silly.

As for dodging, I'm a unicum and I still can't dodge the random BS rng ap shells that disperse into you and effectively citadel you. Unlike cruisers, you can't angle and you can't heal like the high tier cruisers (except khaba and Tashkent which get nuked even harder by AP than most DDs).

Removing this from the game would be compensation for the stealth fire change which I think is fair.

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from wiki

WddBXKWh.jpg

 

Anyway, the more I read this post, the more I think of BB players when BB AP will only do overpen on DD. So DD players will be yeah and be more aggressive, since they know they will not die so easily. BB players will start to complain about aggressive DD plays and want back the original AP pen, so they can deal with DD if they come too close. I personally feel that the current mechanic is fine, it is a way for BB to deal with those too aggressive DD, those long range AP that hit you are RNG's faults.

 

But if one day "BB only deals overpen to DD" happens, then I will just learn to live with it, and maybe regret those times that I cannot punish the DD that torp me.

 

PS: I play DD also.

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13 minutes ago, GRADAN31 said:

from wiki

WddBXKWh.jpg

 

Anyway, the more I read this post, the more I think of BB players when BB AP will only do overpen on DD. So DD players will be yeah and be more aggressive, since they know they will not die so easily. BB players will start to complain about aggressive DD plays and want back the original AP pen, so they can deal with DD if they come too close. I personally feel that the current mechanic is fine, it is a way for BB to deal with those too aggressive DD, those long range AP that hit you are RNG's faults.

 

But if one day "BB only deals overpen to DD" happens, then I will just learn to live with it, and maybe regret those times that I cannot punish the DD that torp me.

 

PS: I play DD also.

having 10k+ shaved off in a single salvo no matter what you try to do to counter it is bullshit

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1 minute ago, drakon233 said:

having 10k+ shaved off in a single salvo no matter what you try to do to counter it is bullshit

You can blame it on:

A) That person has a good aim
B) Broken mechanic

C) You did not pray enough to RNGesus

 

It is true that it is discouraging to see that 10K salvo shave off most of your small HP pool, but we have to just "suck thumb" (i.e. deal with it) for now, until someone finds a better way and put in on the public test server for testing.

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17 minutes ago, drakon233 said:

having 10k+ shaved off in a single salvo no matter what you try to do to counter it is bullshit

And being in a BB and having 50k taken off you in a torpedo salvo by an enemy that stays out of view range isn't bullshit?  But that's another can of worms, and the counter argument will be keep altering course and speed etc.

It's like what @Rina_Ponsaid earlier which I'll quote again below:

"If you are a DD, you should learn to expect an unhappy time if you end up detected at business end of a BB's main turrets. It doesn't really matter if those 16" shells are HE or AP, your only hope is that you get lucky: the shells either miss, or, for AP, pass clean through... which they might, or, especially coming through the ship bow to stern, might not.

The game mechanics are fair and realistic as they are: BB's can take you out with whatever they have in the barrel, but HE gives a small advantage. A DD should not be made impervious to AP shells. That would be terrible. A DD's defense is concealment, and to a lesser extent, small size and maneuverability. Once the heavy shells start connecting you done messed up and that should be the end of you."

You can't have your cake and eat it too - you want play a stealthy DD and the ability to stealth torp, but only want to take overpens if spotted?  This shouldn't happen, as it's a bad game mechanic.  If you're spotted, then you run the risk of of taking a hit just like every other class. 

 

 

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The trouble with Flamu is he's only really worried about the T10 and competitive gameplay. You don't see that kinda stuff happening to DDs further down in mid-low tier so much. It happens more at higher tiers because BBs have higher velocity, more accurate guns that can more reliably hit a DD. That and DDs still try to engage them at ranges that work against lower tier BBs that can't send firepower out as far. The trouble with the proposed change is that it could make suicide charges by DD totally easy at low tiers, even if high tier is totally fixed in a balanced way.

I also noted in his gameplay that the DDs didn't attempt to use stealth or smoke to get away and one camped in smoke, both strategies that could use improvement. The Shima he shot at initially was just plain unlucky. But mostly those destroyers were out of position.

This kinda reminds me of what would normally be said to a BB player that got themselves into a situation where they couldn't counter their way out. Over extended and out of position is generally the call, and I think it can apply to a DD that pushes too close to the enemy. I understand it's easy to over extend because they are so fast, but it's still a mistake.

I'm totally average and I can manage to generally avoid this issue in my T8 Ognevoi even when in a T10 match, how is it that you guys can't avoid it?

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I'll fire what ever is in the barrel at a DD.

 

If they stray into detection range then it's on them. If they get Hydro or Radar... well it's on them also. They should learn (all players in fact) what ships have radar and hydro before rushing a cap. Why not delay a cap and flank torps?

 

I've been hit by toprs and had a ton of HP removed, and that's on me, so a DD should expect retaliation from BB's and CA's alike.

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1 hour ago, drakon233 said:

having 10k+ shaved off in a single salvo no matter what you try to do to counter it is bullshit

 

53 minutes ago, GRADAN31 said:

You can blame it on:

A) That person has a good aim
B) Broken mechanic

C) You did not pray enough to RNGesus

 

It is true that it is discouraging to see that 10K salvo shave off most of your small HP pool, but we have to just "suck thumb" (i.e. deal with it) for now, until someone finds a better way and put in on the public test server for testing.

 

30 minutes ago, _Sammich_ said:

And being in a BB and having 50k taken off you in a torpedo salvo by an enemy that stays out of view range isn't bullshit?  But that's another can of worms, and the counter argument will be keep altering course and speed etc.

It's like what @Rina_Ponsaid earlier which I'll quote again below:

"If you are a DD, you should learn to expect an unhappy time if you end up detected at business end of a BB's main turrets. It doesn't really matter if those 16" shells are HE or AP, your only hope is that you get lucky: the shells either miss, or, for AP, pass clean through... which they might, or, especially coming through the ship bow to stern, might not.

The game mechanics are fair and realistic as they are: BB's can take you out with whatever they have in the barrel, but HE gives a small advantage. A DD should not be made impervious to AP shells. That would be terrible. A DD's defense is concealment, and to a lesser extent, small size and maneuverability. Once the heavy shells start connecting you done messed up and that should be the end of you."

You can't have your cake and eat it too - you want play a stealthy DD and the ability to stealth torp, but only want to take overpens if spotted?  This shouldn't happen, as it's a bad game mechanic.  If you're spotted, then you run the risk of of taking a hit just like every other class. 

 

 

Drakon's argument here is not being punished for bad play.  I've read his posts before, he's all for that.  

The argument is and I agree with, (don't have any ideas to fix though) is you play correctly and you get punished.  That's the problem. 

You play right and angle, and you get 1 hit or even a double single pen (1 pen does 7k damage).  You screw up and show broadside (the side of your ship, you DIE! IN! ALL! OTHER! CLASSES!) and it takes 3 hits to hurt you as much as playing right with 1 lucky hit.  

This is not only teaching bad angling to DD drivers, it's teaching bad target priority to BB players. 

People complain that BB players don't shoot at DDs close to them.  How often is it because they are broadside to the BB?  He's learned not to shoot at that target, cause he won't be rewarded for good aim.  He's rewarded for lucky shot or 1 hit at far away.  That's not a good mechanic.  

 

I agree with people that taking pens out of AP on DD is a bad idea.  It'll lead to other things that we don't want or need (WG loves to nerf to hard. The nerf bat is soft WG, not a hard wooden Louisville Slugger).  How do we fix this without taking out the pink Louisville Slugger with Nerf written on it bat and hurting the game?  That's the real question I think. 

 

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29 minutes ago, BunnyDragon said:

This is not only teaching bad angling to DD drivers, it's teaching bad target priority to BB players.

 

I doubt shooting DD is a "bad" priority target for BB players, overpens only or not. DD gets killed, more freedom to you BB players to do your own things and rekt faces.

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41 minutes ago, Admiral_Neptulussus said:

 

I doubt shooting DD is a "bad" priority target for BB players, overpens only or not. DD gets killed, more freedom to you BB players to do your own things and rekt faces.

 

Exactly this, removing AP pen wont do all that much. AP regular pen on DD is still a bit of occasional thing. I will always shoot a DD if he is in 12 km from my battleship because my aim is good enough to land a few shells on the DD and I always look for those overpens. If I get a regular pen, that is because, DD player tried to angle instead of going braodside. Only a few shell will land on a broadside DD because of battleship sigma. But what would happen had I used HE? If the modules failed to block the shells, the DD would take even more damage. HE has a potential with a big "IF". Again, are we trying to promote HE for BB now? Specially after what we have seen from UK BBs? So basically it changes nothing.

 

Removing AP penetration on the other hand will prevent BB players from heavily punishing misplays or yolo attempts of DDs regardless of their aiming skills. Right now a DD can yolo any BB if he can withstand 1 salvo. BB will be dead from full HP in low and mid tiers no matter what you do because of your long reload. The fear of regular pen is the only thing that prevents most destroyers. On the other hand, like many said, stray BB shells deal more damage to a DD even when you do not make a bad play or yolo play.

 

I think the real problem is the fixed alpha strike. A BB alpha is around 60% hp of a DD or even more in low or mid tiers. Shall we think about reducing alpha strike? Absolutely not. But what we could do is consider the max HP of a target to determine effective alpha strike. So if you max AP alpha is 14k against a 100k hp target, may be this alpha could be toned down to a certain proportion against a ship that has 20k max hp? Another idea would be to take the distance of shell travel and armor thickness it penetrated to determine effective alpha. The penetration mechanics is too simple right now to solve these problems.

Edited by icy_phoenix

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5 minutes ago, icy_phoenix said:

 

Exactly this, removing AP pen wont do all that much. AP regular pen on DD is still a bit of occasional thing. I will always shoot a DD if he is in 12 km from my battleship because my aim is good enough to land a few shells on the DD and I always look for those overpens. If I get a regular pen, that is because, DD player tried to angle instead of going braodside. Only a few shell will land on a broadside DD because of battleship sigma. But what would happen if I have used HE? If the modules failed to block the shells, the DD would take even more damage. So basically it changes nothing.

 

Removing AP penetration on the other hand will prevent BB players heavily punishing misplays or yolo attempts of DDs. Right now a DD can yolo any BB if he can withstand 1 salvo. BB will be dead from full HP in low and mid tiers no matter what you do because of your long reload. On the other hand, like many said, stray BB shells deal more damage to a DD even when you did not make a bad play or yolo play.

 

I think the real problem is the alpha strike. A BB alpha is around 60% hp of a DD or even more in low or mid tiers. Shall we think about reducing alpha strike? Absolutely not. But what we could do is consider the max HP of a target to determine effective alpha strike. So if you max AP alpha is 14k against a 100k hp target, may be this alpha could be toned down to a certain proportion against a ship that has 20k max hp? Another idea would be to take the distance of shell travel and armor thickness it penetrated to determine effective alpha. The penetration mechanics is too simple right now to solve these problems.

Sounds like a sandbox server is needed, yours is like "AP - deals 10% HP damage to enemy ship, a maximum of 14K HP, whichever is lower". Having a complex damage calculation might change WoWS from casual game to simulation, new player might not like that they need to calculate the possible damage they can deal for every ship at every distance (or they can just yolo and wonder why later). Of course, your suggestion is up to WG to make the decision.

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I think a bigger problem is the gun bloom.

Being lit for 20 secs after a knife fight in a cap, gives everyone time to line you up, and they're all looking..

As a dd, you can't be seen or you're in trouble.

I have been whacked for 18k, in my z52, by a Missouri, from about 12km. 

Bad play? Or playing the game, contesting the cap? 

It was never this much of a problem until the gun bloom change.

My 2 cents.

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2 hours ago, _Sammich_ said:

And being in a BB and having 50k taken off you in a torpedo salvo by an enemy that stays out of view range isn't bullshit?  But that's another can of worms, and the counter argument will be keep altering course and speed etc.

It's like what @Rina_Ponsaid earlier which I'll quote again below:

"If you are a DD, you should learn to expect an unhappy time if you end up detected at business end of a BB's main turrets. It doesn't really matter if those 16" shells are HE or AP, your only hope is that you get lucky: the shells either miss, or, for AP, pass clean through... which they might, or, especially coming through the ship bow to stern, might not.

The game mechanics are fair and realistic as they are: BB's can take you out with whatever they have in the barrel, but HE gives a small advantage. A DD should not be made impervious to AP shells. That would be terrible. A DD's defense is concealment, and to a lesser extent, small size and maneuverability. Once the heavy shells start connecting you done messed up and that should be the end of you."

You can't have your cake and eat it too - you want play a stealthy DD and the ability to stealth torp, but only want to take overpens if spotted?  This shouldn't happen, as it's a bad game mechanic.  If you're spotted, then you run the risk of of taking a hit just like every other class. 

 

 

i'll respond to this in a bit when i get back to my computer, typeing on my phone is a pain in the ass

Edited by drakon233

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1 hour ago, tics said:

I think a bigger problem is the gun bloom.

Being lit for 20 secs after a knife fight in a cap, gives everyone time to line you up, and they're all looking..

As a dd, you can't be seen or you're in trouble.

I have been whacked for 18k, in my z52, by a Missouri, from about 12km. 

Bad play? Or playing the game, contesting the cap? 

It was never this much of a problem until the gun bloom change.

My 2 cents.

An unfortunate side effect of the stealth-firing removal. 

It changed the entire dynamic for DD vs DD engagements at the cap zones.

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23 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

An unfortunate side effect of the stealth-firing removal. 

It changed the entire dynamic for DD vs DD engagements at the cap zones.

 

But if in a knife fight DD v's DD, then they are still spotting each other for the rest of the team to whale in. It's the return fire out of the cap that i could see the issue.

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2 hours ago, GRADAN31 said:

Sounds like a sandbox server is needed, yours is like "AP - deals 10% HP damage to enemy ship, a maximum of 14K HP, whichever is lower". Having a complex damage calculation might change WoWS from casual game to simulation, new player might not like that they need to calculate the possible damage they can deal for every ship at every distance (or they can just yolo and wonder why later). Of course, your suggestion is up to WG to make the decision.

 

That's you wrong perception of what I suggested. That damage model is not at all complex. The complexity is exactly same as maintaining two types of HE penetration. Also, I did not say 10% specifically. On the 2nd point, you are focusing on damage again, think more. How about penetration statistics? At close range, BB shells have too high velocity, so there should not be regular pens. But at long distance, they might have enough time to trigger the fuse, aka, regular penetration. Now, long distance shots are harder to land and only 10-12 km is not enough distance that BB shells may lose some penetration. That means the range we are talking about must be way longer. And if I can hit a DD at 19 km with a BB, that player needs to quit WoWS that moment. However even at long range, the shell angle may allow the DD to actually not get a regular pen, which is win win situation.But controlling this area, there are a lot of scope to play around.

 

And do you think any player shoots a target knowing how much damage he would do? I'm certain it is not.

 

Anyway, I don't think wg people read general section of forums. And I have no wish to suggest anyway. DD is my 2nd highest played class with a pretty high survival rate. Why should I complain, right?

Edited by icy_phoenix
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5 hours ago, _Sammich_ said:

And being in a BB and having 50k taken off you in a torpedo salvo by an enemy that stays out of view range isn't bullshit?  But that's another can of worms, and the counter argument will be keep altering course and speed etc.

It's like what @Rina_Ponsaid earlier which I'll quote again below:

"If you are a DD, you should learn to expect an unhappy time if you end up detected at business end of a BB's main turrets. It doesn't really matter if those 16" shells are HE or AP, your only hope is that you get lucky: the shells either miss, or, for AP, pass clean through... which they might, or, especially coming through the ship bow to stern, might not.

The game mechanics are fair and realistic as they are: BB's can take you out with whatever they have in the barrel, but HE gives a small advantage. A DD should not be made impervious to AP shells. That would be terrible. A DD's defense is concealment, and to a lesser extent, small size and maneuverability. Once the heavy shells start connecting you done messed up and that should be the end of you."

You can't have your cake and eat it too - you want play a stealthy DD and the ability to stealth torp, but only want to take overpens if spotted?  This shouldn't happen, as it's a bad game mechanic.  If you're spotted, then you run the risk of of taking a hit just like every other class. 

 

 

  

have you tried playing High tier DD in the current meta? the radar are everywhere, torps are easily evaded, and the skill that make cruiser have 2 floatplanes making torps even more useless, if your argument is because it is realistic then why not give CV the power to delete every ships in the game with a wave of never ending aircraft? because that is realistic too, but that is not ballance and ridiculous, and did you remember a long time ago when WG said this game is like rock and scissor? Battleships are counter cruiser, cruiser counter Destroyer and destroyer counter  battleship, saying it is okay for destroyer gets easliy countered by a class of ships that is supposed to be their main target is ridiculous, that is like saying cruiser should have 100% fire chance so they can kill battleships faster too

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I won't go into shenanigans you guys are arguring, but right now there is some ways to (temporally)fix the issue. (Doubtful)
- increase fuse time on BB
- DD Hull plate increased up to 30 mm
- reduce HE/AP alpha of BB
- remove underwater penetration completely
- make Expert loader as a innate skill for BB and make AP useless against DD
- rework Overmatch mechanics as a whole, make overmatch based on range and shell parameters
- rework HE to have a valid use (not RN BB dumdum)

however, I doubt any could work

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