DD captain Mains may have a valid Complaint

[BunnyDragon]

Hello Everyone,

 

I've had some extra time on my hands today, (really bad ping) so I decided to do some math on something that I've been hearing from some DD Captains about BB AP on their ships. 

 

I thought they were complaining that AP Overpens were more damaging than HE pens.  I have since learned that this is not the case, but that they are complaining of the pen/overpen mechanic that they are subject too. 

1) They show broadside, BB overpen and do 1k damage, CL/CA kill them in 1 or 2 salvos because broadside. Makes sense, you show broadside, you get punished. 

2) They angle to not die from CL/CA/DD, they get hammered from AP pen from BB.  Wait, this makes no darn sense.  Correct play gets you killed? (Maybe why people in T10 still don't angle cause they learned angling in DD?) 2 ways that you get hammered in the ship?  Not fair.

 

Now, why do BBs only shoot AP?  Bad/lazy play? Forgot what the 1 key is?  Or is it something in the game mechanics?

 

Ship		HE		AP			Pen HE		Overpen AP
Japan
Kawachi		5,100		8,100			1683		1012.5
Myogi		5,700		10,000			1881		1250
Ishizuchi		5,200		8,000			1716		1000
Kongo		5,700		10,200			1881		1275
Fuso		5,700		10,200			1881		1275
Mutsu		6,500		12,400			2145		1550
Nagato		6,500		12,600			2145		1575
Amagi		6,500		12,600			2145		1575
Kii		6,500		12,600			2145		1575
Izumo		6,500		12,900			2145		1612.5
Yamato		7,300		14,800			2409		1850
USA
South Carolina		4,100		8,100			1353		1012.5
Wyoming		4,200		8,300			1386		1037.5
Arkansas Beta		4,200		8,300			1386		1037.5
New York		5,000		10,300			1650		1287.5
Texas		5,000		10,300			1650		1287.5
New Mexico		5,000		10,500			1650		1312.5
Arizona		5,000		10,300			1650		1287.5
Colorado		5,700		12,400			1881		1550
North Carolina		5,700		13,100			1881		1637.5
Alabama		5,700		13,100			1881		1637.5
Iowa		5,700		13,500			1881		1687.5
Missouri		5,700		13,500			1881		1687.5
Montana		5,700		13,500			1881		1687.5
Germany
Nassau		3,200		7,200			1056		900
Konig Albert		3,400		8,300			1122		1037.5
Kaiser		3,500		8,400			1155		1050
Konig		3,500		8,400			1155		1050
Bayern		4,500		10,900			1485		1362.5
Gneisenau		4,400		11,600			1452		1450
Scharnhorst		3,200		7,600			1056		950
Tirpitz		4,400		11,600			1452		1450
Bismarck		4,400		11,600			1452		1450
Friedrich der Große		5,000		13,500			1650		1687.5
Großer Kurfürst		5,000		13,500			1650		1687.5
Russian
Imperator Nikolai I		4,500		8,600			1485		1075
Oktyabrskaya Revolutsiya		4,500		8,600			1485		1075
UK
Bellerophon		5,200		8,100			1716		1012.5
Orion		5,900		9,500			1947		1187.5
Iron Duke		5,900		9,900			1947		1237.5
Warspite		5,300		11,400			1749		1425
Queen Elizabeth		6,300		11,400			2079		1425
King George V		6,100		10,500			2013		1312.5
Hood		5,300		11,400			1749		1425
Nelson		6,900		12,000			2277		1500
Monarch		6,300		11,900			2079		1487.5
Lion		7,200		13,000			2376		1625
Conqueror		8,200		14,900			2706		1862.5
Italy
Giulio Cesare		4,800		9,700			1584		1212.5
France
Dunkerque		4,800		9,700			1584		1212.5

 

My theory is, it's the game mechanics.  

As you can see, with the exception of the Brits. Starting in either Tier 6 or Tier 7, you are rewarded for forgetting your HE shells in BB.

The damage output of an HE pen is only slightly more than an AP overpen in most cases from T6 on.  Heck, the Germans have 2 different BB in top (from wiki) that have greater AP overpen than HE pen.  There is literally no reward for BB players to switch ammo type to HE to shoot DD's. 

 

This doesn't make any sense.  In the low tiers, you are taught to switch ammo type.  This is useless in upper tiers. 

Sure you can get a little more damage on a DD with HE pen and a fire, maybe knock a module out or the engines, but then what?  You have to switch back to AP to be a killer again to other ship types.  (Correct play mechanic in my opinion.)

Or, you can shoot AP at the DD, get some hits, do almost as much damage and don't have to switch ammo types with the reload wait. Which is what smart players do. (Incorrect play mechanic in my opinion.) 

 

I do believe, that DD mains, may have a valid complaint about this.  

BB players need to be encouraged to switch ammo types which would 

A) Encourage BB pushing with team (don't have to worry about BB AP if they are shooting DD) 

B) Help to keep CL/CA from instant delete

C) Make average player think more about shots

D) (My opinion) Make game play more interesting. 

E) Ok, just reread A).  It most likely won't as a lot of BBs are scared of whatever. 

 

What's your thoughts?

Honestly Curious about honest thoughts here guys. 

[KirstieBeau]

I think something's wrong with your computation. AP overpen only deals 10% of the AP max damage. Example is NC. An overpen is just 1310.

[Thyaliad]

Another thing - if I am in a BB and switch to HE when fighting a DD, I cannot instantly switch targets  and citadel a broadsiding cruiser or BB that enteres my firing angle. 

So the only real benefit of HE is damaging modules. AP overpen causes only slightly less damage than HE pen, sometimes does 3x damage, and allows me to citadel stuff.

It is just not worth the reload time switching to HE just to do more module damage.

[HeroOfWind]

i think these screenshots are self-explanatory about the AP-HE switch in general. (and how bs it is currently)

 

[BunnyDragon]

10 minutes ago, KirstieBeau said:

I think something's wrong with your computation. AP overpen only deals 10% of the AP max damage. Example is NC. An overpen is just 1310.

Wiki says it's 1/8 of max damage, before saturation/etc. comes into account.

If this is wrong, please link the info. That would completely change the whole argument being made. 

[KirstieBeau]

1 minute ago, HeroOfWind said:

i think these screenshots are self-explanatory about the AP-HE switch in general. (and how bs it is currently)

 

This is the reason why I, a US DD main, stopped playing destroyers recently. DD supposedly counter BB not the other way around. All the radar, hydro, and these BB AP salvos doesn't justify the rewards you get playing DD. That's why I play more BB and cruisers recently.

[BunnyDragon]

1 minute ago, KirstieBeau said:

This is the reason why I, a US DD main, stopped playing destroyers recently. DD supposedly counter BB not the other way around. All the radar, hydro, and these BB AP salvos doesn't justify the rewards you get playing DD. That's why I play more BB and cruisers recently.

That's what I've been hearing. But please, where did you hear about the 1/10 overpen with AP?  

The wiki for WOWS has 1/8 overpen which is what all the math is based on. If the math is wrong, then the overpen complaint is not valid if the overpen is lower than showed in the table above.  (Pen still is in my opinion). 

[KirstieBeau]

5 minutes ago, BunnyDragon said:

Wiki says it's 1/8 of max damage, before saturation/etc. comes into account.

If this is wrong, please link the info. That would completely change the whole argument being made. 

Even if 1/10 is the correct value, it wouldn't completely change the issue. Firing AP at DD is still the better choice.

[KirstieBeau]

5 minutes ago, BunnyDragon said:

That's what I've been hearing. But please, where did you hear about the 1/10 overpen with AP?  

The wiki for WOWS has 1/8 overpen which is what all the math is based on. If the math is wrong, then the overpen complaint is not valid if the overpen is lower than showed in the table above.  (Pen still is in my opinion). 

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration

 

 

[BunnyDragon]

3 minutes ago, KirstieBeau said:

Even if 1/10 is the correct value, it wouldn't completely change the issue. Firing AP at DD is still the better choice.

Actually it makes a big difference.

1/10 overpen for Montana is 1350 for a 500 damage per shot difference, (this could be the difference between a kill or not if HE is used correctly) then bad play is part of the problem for the overuse of AP (myself included) vs not a real difference between ammo choice.

[keskparane]

Also I don't think you can get splash damage with AP. With HE even if you miss you might still knock out their propulsion or rudder.

[Thyaliad]

28 minutes ago, BunnyDragon said:

That's what I've been hearing. But please, where did you hear about the 1/10 overpen with AP?  

The wiki for WOWS has 1/8 overpen which is what all the math is based on. If the math is wrong, then the overpen complaint is not valid if the overpen is lower than showed in the table above.  (Pen still is in my opinion). 

It says in the wiki here that overpens do 10% damage. Under the AP section.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration

Never heard of that 1/8 value before. I think that is an error.

But I have to agree it doesn't change much. Are you willing to go into a 30s reload and give up the chance to do 3x damage and the potential to damage other non-DD targets just do to marginally more damage and module hits?

It is better to just stick to AP. Personally I only switch to HE in a BB if the enemy DD I am fighting is the last enemy left in the area. 

[New_Horizontal]

The exact problem in my opinion is, current games mechanics are broken and need to be overhauled.
HE is effortless round, just spam it and it will set on fire dealing devastating damage.
AP is alpha spike round, Situational but stupidly powerful if used correctly.

AP BB vs DD shinanigans is a results from "Overmatch Mechanics" and "Underwater Penetration"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Problems with AP on BB against DD is DD armor plate (beside Khabarovsk which is another matter to discuss) has maximum 21 mm which will get overmatched by any AP shell that has diamater > 305 mm. Thus BB always damage DD regardless of angle you get hit which mean AP is better than HE when used against DD, plus BB has long reload so there is excuse to not swapping AP to HE (but if you get hit by HE you still get devastated regardless).

For under water penetration, BB AP when land on water near DD it will arm when contacted, BB has 0.033 (0.015s for RN BB) s arming time which mean BB AP will dive and penetrate hull and arm inside ship which equal to normal penetration (33% maximum damage). This is why AP is better than HE, if HE land near DD its exploded on contact and instead of damaging ship it will capacitate module instead (which is better than get raw damage on DD side)

WG approach about making AP overpen on DD only is bullcrap and nonesense and it only solve symptom, not root cause.

There are many things I want to discuss and demonstrate my though on game mechanics (AP and HE especially) but I'll add it up later on because it will be long article to write and refine them will take days or weeks.

 

[KirstieBeau]

8 minutes ago, BunnyDragon said:

Actually it makes a big difference.

1/10 overpen for Montana is 1350 for a 500 damage per shot difference, (this could be the difference between a kill or not if HE is used correctly) then bad play is part of the problem for the overuse of AP (myself included) vs not a real difference between ammo choice.

I' d rather roll the dice with AP. Either you get a bunch of overpens which deal relatively decent damage, or you get that one or two pens that completely devastate the poor DD player. It's so frustrating if you switch to HE, and right before your guns get reloaded, that DD will fall into concealment and you have a broadside cruiser next to it and you have HE loaded. 

[icy_phoenix]

6 minutes ago, BunnyDragon said:

Actually it makes a big difference.

1/10 overpen for Montana is 1350 for a 500 damage per shot difference, (this could be the difference between a kill or not if HE is used correctly) then bad play is part of the problem for the overuse of AP (myself included) vs not a real difference between ammo choice.

 

It is not a bad play, nor a lazy play. Battleships do not see Destroyers for much long, they usually go into stealth between two reloads. Switching between AP and HE is not optimal because by the time you get your shells ready its very clear that for the most part, you are no longer detecting the destroyer. HE is not very good for most of the battleships in the game to shoot other classes. AP overpen from shells are still better than HE salvos where there are chances that the modules blocking the HE shells and literally doing nothing. Technically HE salvos should rate higher total damage since they don't overpen, so basically 1/3 of max HE damage which is roughly 1/2 of max AP damage. So, for each shell, if max AP damage is something like M, overpen does M/10 and HE pen does roughly M/6. This is fine on paper, but the reality is totally opposite. HE mechanics is wonky at best.

 

And WG Wiki never works, sadly.

[LordTyphoon]

BB vs DD penetration damage needs some adjusting, at the moment DDs punished too heavily for their mistakes / good play from BB. 

[JarofVegemite]

Wasn't it the case that owing to an error in the game engine, BB AP was doing full pen on destroyers in certain instances when the shells hit the water, then go on and hit the ship?

 

I think the problem is very high penetration damage, much higher than 1/10, is randomly affecting DDs. There were a couple of recorded instances of DD's taking massive damage from only one ap hit. 

[FishyPower]

DDs are still good for capping and influencing the battle, however, it just doesn't work when you eat a 5k AP pen damage from your butt while running away. I'm already reducing my escape time by sitting butt into cap, with engine boost ready to go, but I get spotted for 5 secs and a BB can get their salvo off. If 1 AP hits my butt, that's 5k HP gone.

[_neppu]

2 hours ago, HeroOfWind said:

i think these screenshots are self-explanatory about the AP-HE switch in general. (and how bs it is currently)

 

 

To be fair, Khaba deserves every bit of it, don't know about the sims though.

[drakon233]

1 minute ago, Admiral_Neptulussus said:

 

To be fair, Khaba deserves every bit of it, don't know about the sims though.

every dd suffer from this, at every tier

[BunnyDragon]

8 minutes ago, FishyPower said:

DDs are still good for capping and influencing the battle, however, it just doesn't work when you eat a 5k AP pen damage from your butt while running away. I'm already reducing my escape time by sitting butt into cap, with engine boost ready to go, but I get spotted for 5 secs and a BB can get their salvo off. If 1 AP hits my butt, that's 5k HP gone.

Agree, and I don't play dd.  

I think that AP pen from BB needs to be changed regarding DD and HE use encouraged.  (Sure you hit DD, but he got options left from AP hit.  HE, then massive pen damage. Correct play/risk rewarded.)

 

[FishyPower]

19 minutes ago, BunnyDragon said:

Agree, and I don't play dd.  

I think that AP pen from BB needs to be changed regarding DD and HE use encouraged.  (Sure you hit DD, but he got options left from AP hit.  HE, then massive pen damage. Correct play/risk rewarded.)

 

Yep.

[Rina_Pon]

My view on this is a little different.

If you are a DD, you should learn to expect an unhappy time if you end up detected at business end of a BB's main turrets. It doesn't really matter if those 16" shells are HE or AP, your only hope is that you get lucky: the shells either miss, or, for AP, pass clean through... which they might, or, especially coming through the ship bow to stern, might not.

The game mechanics are fair and realistic as they are: BB's can take you out with whatever they have in the barrel, but HE gives a small advantage. A DD should not be made impervious to AP shells. That would be terrible. A DD's defense is concealment, and to a lesser extent, small size and maneuverability. Once the heavy shells start connecting you done messed up and that should be the end of you.

[FishyPower]

1 hour ago, Rina_Pon said:

My view on this is a little different.

If you are a DD, you should learn to expect an unhappy time if you end up detected at business end of a BB's main turrets. It doesn't really matter if those 16" shells are HE or AP, your only hope is that you get lucky: the shells either miss, or, for AP, pass clean through... which they might, or, especially coming through the ship bow to stern, might not.

The game mechanics are fair and realistic as they are: BB's can take you out with whatever they have in the barrel, but HE gives a small advantage. A DD should not be made impervious to AP shells. That would be terrible. A DD's defense is concealment, and to a lesser extent, small size and maneuverability. Once the heavy shells start connecting you done messed up and that should be the end of you.

 

But the thing is, your maneuverability doesn't do anything. At 10km, you can expect to eat a salvo for AP shells. Plus, 5 seconds is a reasonable time to escape from detection, but a BB can switch targets with 5 secs. It doesn't help when you hide in your smoke cause the enemy DD is also there in cap with you, then all of a sudden, radar and you die. I know radar is pretty hard to use, but bloody hell, the radars at high tiers are [content removed]. 10km detection range + the 3km that a DD is typically away from his fleet. That's pretty safe a distance already.

 

Inappropriate/derogatory. Post edited, user sanctioned.

~amade

[Sparcie]

4 hours ago, icy_phoenix said:

 

It is not a bad play, nor a lazy play. Battleships do not see Destroyers for much long, they usually go into stealth between two reloads. Switching between AP and HE is not optimal because by the time you get your shells ready its very clear that for the most part, you are no longer detecting the destroyer. HE is not very good for most of the battleships in the game to shoot other classes. AP overpen from shells are still better than HE salvos where there are chances that the modules blocking the HE shells and literally doing nothing. Technically HE salvos should rate higher total damage since they don't overpen, so basically 1/3 of max HE damage which is roughly 1/2 of max AP damage. So, for each shell, if max AP damage is something like M, overpen does M/10 and HE pen does roughly M/6. This is fine on paper, but the reality is totally opposite. HE mechanics is wonky at best.

 

And WG Wiki never works, sadly.

Basically this. By the time you switch ammo the DD is gone, so shoot whatever you got in the barrels. Yeah DDs can take a nasty amount of damage from BB AP, but the better DD players I've seen generally don't put themselves in that position.

I don't play DDs all that much but I can manage to not get sunk by BBs like this (unless I make a silly mistake) when playing my DDs. Generally you have to be fairly close for a BB to be able to hit you without the possibility of dodging, and you have stealth and smoke to use for evasion. It does get much harder the higher tier you play.

Switching ammunition by removing a shell and reloading a new one was never done on ships because of practicality, they always fired the guns to clear them before loading a new ammo type. In fact guns bigger than a certain size should be unable to change ammo if a shell is already loaded.

1 hour ago, FishyPower said:

 

But the thing is, your maneuverability doesn't do anything. At 10km, you can expect to eat a salvo for AP shells. Plus, 5 seconds is a reasonable time to escape from detection, but a BB can switch targets with 5 secs. It doesn't help when you hide in your smoke cause the enemy DD is also there in cap with you, then all of a sudden, radar and you die. I know radar is pretty hard to use, but bloody hell, the radars at high tiers are [content removed] . 10km detection range + the 3km that a DD is typically away from his fleet. That's pretty safe a distance already.

If you're in a situation like that I'd think escaping a bit earlier rather than trying to fight would be a better option, of course leaving some fish to make the enemies think. That would be a bad situation even without the BB in the equation. Oh and 5 seconds turret rotation for most BBs is not that far for many BBs, they'd have to have their guns pointing roughly in your general direction to be able to do that.

Personally when in a DD I tend to save smoke as a trump card in an escape, or to cover an ally. If I see smoke I send torps if I have them. I've seen so many DDs camp in their smoke in a cap only to be torpedoed or caught out with radar/hydro. It's a common strategy but it's probably not the best way of going about capping.

 

Quote updated.

~amade