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SZYZWY

High Tier Torpboating and the IJN

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In the Asia server, IJN DDs have a bit of a bad reputation. Either the first ones to die, the useless DD not even close to a cap, or worse, the DD that goes around the borders to hunt the CV. Of course, other DDs can be prone to these things, but it is IJN DDs that are the more susceptible to it, due to the general lack of AA, knife fight capabilities, and the temptation of flanking due to the generally superior concealment.

Opinions differ as to whether specific IJN DDs need buffs or not, but besides that, I'd like to bring to light as of this juncture on some tidbits that may help your IJN DD play be more consistent, more notably high tiers, also torping overall. As they are usually classified as torp boats, due to their "argumentatively" superior torps, that's where consistent proper torping comes to play a bit more importantly than it does with other lines.

First off, consistency on torping isn't something along the lines of: "Ah, I get 3-4 torp hits every game.". Torping consistency is more a personal evaluation, and is more geared towards having "good salvos that would most likely hit". Consistency should be along the lines of: "I aim to get 15-20 potential torp hits every game". As torping is a two-way process, firstly dependent on how you target your torpedo salvos, the other being how your target dodges your salvos(or lack of dodging). There is RNG in torp spreads, no question there, but it is to the point of being consistent enough not to fail you a lot.

Now, I mention how torping being on those 2 broad factors(player targeting, target dodging). A good torpedo salvo would therefore be a torp salvo that "minimizes" how the target dodges. In a vacuum, open ocean, there are only two spots for torps to approach which one can achieve that. The first is at the most ideal torping spot, which is perpendicular to the target, tilted a bit against the direction they're going. It creates a situation where the enemy is at the worst situation to dodge, and would require more time to properly dodge. [Also known as the CV TB's sweet spot]
The second torping spot is directly bow-on of the target. It is in this case that the only way for them to dodge is for the torp spread RNG to be on their side. As a target, dodging torp salvos that have a torp directly bow on to you, would make it that in order to dodge, you would have to shift the rudder twice[basically wiggle], and speed control is a non-factor.
If you torp in other angles or directions, the target can use "both" rudder shifting and speed control to dodge.
It also goes without saying that the closer you are when you release the salvo, the better.

That's just a torping guideline, now why is it important? For the sake of the subject which is IJN DDs, their torp characteristics have them as having great alpha, flood chance, fast speed, but bad detection range. Hence, minimizing the opponent target's dodging reaction is more important than it is for other DDs. If you want to try it in training room, a GK that has hydro on, can't dodge a Yuugumo spread if it's detected at the worst possible angle which is a small tilt from being perpendicular.

Now, say you have opportunities to hit torps with just that fundamental for now, what makes IJN DD torps potent is their alpha and flood chance. In high tiers, almost every torp hurts be default(except the Germans) . But IJN DD torps have the leisure to cripple a Cruiser at 10-30% HP with 2 torp hits. That's for the alpha.
As for the flood chance, an IJN DD torp hitting anything has a close to 100% or over 100% flood chance, making it actually be able to stack floods. And if you didn't know, with 80s premium DCP cooldown of BBs, successfully stacking a flood on them have around 68% Max HP dealt at T10. Combine it with the alpha most ships already take from just one torp hit, you can almost always guarantee a dead enemy BB with proper flood stacking.
The first argument against doing this would of course be "making sure" the second salvo hits to actually get the flooding to stick. That's where the torping bow-on comes to play. If you torp an opponent bow on, the natural course of action is to NOT turn and present a larger profile to get torped. Making it that they stay in place in the torpedo boats' point of view.

So now, it becomes a choice. Either flank the enemy to get a good angle and go for high alpha dev-strike salvos. Or to prowl the targets head on, and stack floods.
Either choice is potent against BBs, decent against CAs, not really good against DDs.
And it is all of course up to the player, dependent of the situation.

In another standpoint, IJN DD guns aren't really just for decoration. Yuugumo and Shima have a decent enough armament for self defense, which the IJN configuration of 1 bow turret and 2 aft turrets definitely help. They have the most "standard" of arcs, so it's the easiest to get used to. (Very Fast for RU, Fast for the KM DDs, and Slow for the USN). So if consistency with torps is hard, consistency with guns is still achievable. But that's a more niche' choice, not exactly playing with their strength. With things like Radar or Aircraft around, making DD play harder, not only for the IJN.

Another use of torps is flushing out smoke. Especially with RN CLs, a good tidbit to learn is to use your first salvo to torp ahead, THEN torp into the smoke. Conventionally speaking, most people would torp into the smoke then torp ahead. Some would simply throw all of it into the smoke. For the sake of consistency however it's better to torp ahead first, then torp into the smoke. Why? Let's take the enemy PoV first. In the situation that the target sees the torps into the smoke, they will of course accelerate forward, then they'll see the torps ahead. Sure, you can get a hit or two, but it's easier for the target to dodge torps, ONCE he's built up speed. Now reverse that, the enemy sees the torps ahead first, making the course of action, either to stay put or reverse. Then in just a second or two, your second salvo into the smoke will be seen, the enemy is either stopped or in reverse, both of which makes it harder for the target to actually dodge.
All based on the fact that relatively, it's way harder to dodge going in reverse than it is to dodge when you're already going forward. It may not always work, since it's definitely situational, but the little things pile up if you want to do better and better in such torp-centric ships.

There is of course a lot more intricacies in properly torping a target, like actual prediction and estimation. But it's all heavily situational, and I would only like to impart just the little things, small factors that minimize the other player's actions on the result of your own actions. That and just highlighting what the IJN DDs can do better that the other DDs don't do as good. Which the reverse is so heavily known already.

Disclaimer:
[Most of these situations are of a high tier environment, less nimble ships, BBs that have wide beams, radar is more prevalent, and RN CLs are notorious and DDs have more or less the same concealment ranges]
[Ships of use are the Yuugumo and the Shimakaze]
 

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3 minutes ago, drakon233 said:

tldr where?

(on the actual post, well said suzy)

so when will you carry my skrub arse

tl:dr
Best ways to torp are from the most ideal perpendicular angle with a slight tilt or a fully bow on target.
IJN DDs' torps have advantage in alpha and flooding. So to use it, torp in a way to alpha your target to death or stack floods.
Flush out smoke by torping ahead first, then torping into the smoke, just so it's harder for the ship in smoke to dodge.

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there is BIGGEST MISTERY OF ALL TIME......

 

how Algerie only with 3 torpedo can hit unspotted DD in 7km~9km (use RDF) and sink them......

just how.... and its often happened.... i am just randomly spam torpedo into direction of RDF.....

 

conclusion : RDF turn Algerie Torpedo into homming missile. LETS PICK RDF!!!! 

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2 minutes ago, Skarhabek said:

there is BIGGEST MISTERY OF ALL TIME......

 

how Algerie only with 3 torpedo can hit unspotted DD in 7km~9km (use RDF) and sink them......

just how.... and its often happened.... i am just randomly spam torpedo into direction of RDF.....

 

conclusion : RDF turn Algerie Torpedo into homming missile. LETS PICK RDF!!!! 

that moment when you see that sharkbait posted something about RDF and you realize you realized that you cant unsee things so you decide to use mind bleech to cleanse your soul of evil and then realize that you need a team of priests/exorcist+a swimming pools worth of holy brain bleech to do it only to then realize that it's too late to save you soul so you wander the world searching for a way to end your depraved existence

TL;DR

can we ban sharkbait from posing unconstructive stuff on the forums yet?

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Super Tester
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Suzy, aren't you the #1 Shimakaze in Asia server? Most problem I see from majority of IJN DD players are their ignorant behavior. In that case, there is no fix to that problem. No matter what you tell them, they will never listen. Almost like bots.

 

Very well written non-the-less and I'm sure I'll follow them. Although I'm still at T5 on those lines.

Edited by icy_phoenix

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Just now, drakon233 said:

that moment when you see that sharkbait posted something about RDF and you realize you realized that you cant unsee things so you decide to use mind bleech to cleanse your soul of evil and then realize that you need a team of priests/exorcist+a swimming pools worth of holy brain bleech to do it only to then realize that it's too late to save you soul so you wander the world searching for a way to end your depraved existence

TL;DR

can we ban sharkbait from posing unconstructive stuff on the forums yet?

 

i am just curious how unspotted DD cannt dodge 3 torpedo of algerie.... just weird

and RDF is useless thanks, RDF mod is better... no need for spend 4 point, more accurate and it tell the range of the enemy

 

btw, mod is only for noob! real man use no mod+dinamite aim

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No no no this is great. All the info or guides always help to those who seek it. If they don't its their own lost.
I'll try to apply this on all my torpedo equipped ships.

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4 hours ago, SZYZWY said:

..... use your first salvo to torp ahead, THEN torp into the smoke. Conventionally speaking, most people would torp into the smoke then torp ahead. Some would simply throw all of it into the smoke. For the sake of consistency however it's better to torp ahead first, then torp into the smoke.

 

Funny thing though, this is how I always dump torpedoes in smoke, i salvo ahead first, then the rest where I think he will sit in the smoke. if I have 3, the last one is either at the back or a bit ahead depending on how I feel about the enemy. But I am not good at farming damage with torps, I usually play mid tier US DD, may be that is also a reason.

So, this never crossed my mind that it might be unconventional. Great hint btw, and no, you will never get me in this way :D

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Great tips. I will try to use them in my IJN DDs.

I agree on the guns too. Don't be afraid to use them and set some fires if you know the enemy is too preoccupied to fire back.

29 minutes ago, Skarhabek said:

 

i am just curious how unspotted DD cannt dodge 3 torpedo of algerie.... just weird

and RDF is useless thanks, RDF mod is better... no need for spend 4 point, more accurate and it tell the range of the enemy

 

btw, mod is only for noob! real man use no mod+dinamite aim

Often I find it is those randoms torps that weren't even intended for me that are the most dangerous.

I can be sailing along completely undetected then suddenly bam! A wall of torps.

I have sunk many enemy DDs this way too way too. I will send some torps at a BB or something and end up sinking a DD I didn't even know was there.

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"Im not capping, im torpedo boat"

- some random Kagero. as the only DD on epicenter

 

saying bad reputation is quite mild.

 

Player that play other line of DD first, before climbing IJN tech tree usualy have confidence and somewhat wont shy away to using their gun

Player that only play or start as IJN DD, would somewhat treat their gun as decoration.

its quite nice if you meet that kind of player, since you can gun them down without retaliation

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16 hours ago, Skarhabek said:

RDF is useless thanks, RDF mod is better... no need for spend 4 point, more accurate and it tell the range of the enemy

There's a mod that gives RDF skill without spending skill points?

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1 hour ago, Epicurus_ said:

There's a mod that gives RDF skill without spending skill points?

even better.... more precise plus range of the ship, BUT it cannt tell what kind of ship is that pointing. also there is another stupid mod that point where is the enemy shell will land.... WASD in CA become EZ..... and more, there is a mod that can tell what is consummable your team mate bring. ouwh man so much mod..... even aim mod still exist :V

 

lets straight this up, NO EVIDENCE MEAN NO PROVE. everything i said is lie btw..... just forget it.

 

 

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i was lying...... RDF mod, enemy shell tracker, and ally consummable viewer is not exist. it was lie, so lets stop already like ralph said :v

if it was really exist, ITS JUST COINCIDENCE.

 

man, sorry i wont derail this thread any further

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6 hours ago, Skarhabek said:

i was lying...... RDF mod, enemy shell tracker, and ally consummable viewer is not exist. it was lie, so lets stop already like ralph said :v

if it was really exist, ITS JUST COINCIDENCE.

 

man, sorry i wont derail this thread any further

They do exist and I use them everyday :D

 

... Wait, what game are we talking about?

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The problem with IJN dd is they are too dependant on their torp for dealing damages, yes their guns are still usable but compared to other DD literally everyone have better guns, except maybe akizuki.

In high tier meta where everyone is passive, radar, floatplanes, and hydro everywhere makes life of IJN DD even harder

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as someone who mains IJN DD 

On 10/6/2017 at 11:27 PM, humusz said:

Player that play other line of DD first, before climbing IJN tech tree usualy have confidence and somewhat wont shy away to using their gun

Player that only play or start as IJN DD, would somewhat treat their gun as decoration.

i offended

been playing IJN DD since beta weekend 

the fact that IJN DD's guns are indeed decoration comes from the fact they wont last long against something heavier than Akizuki when exposed

 

also

player that already get used to other type of DD, IT IS NOT confidence, it is just the habit of using gunnery Destroyer that they somewhat try to use the IJN Torpboat guns in smoke

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2 hours ago, Harpoon01 said:

as someone who mains IJN DD 

i offended

been playing IJN DD since beta weekend 

the fact that IJN DD's guns are indeed decoration comes from the fact they wont last long against something heavier than Akizuki when exposed

 

also

player that already get used to other type of DD, IT IS NOT confidence, it is just the habit of using gunnery Destroyer that they somewhat try to use the IJN Torpboat guns in smoke

 

Agree or not, what humusz said is true. Most IJN DD players do not use guns. Countless time they let very low hp enemy DDs go away cause instead of using gun, they try to use torpedoes!!!

 

Using torpedoes against DDs are almost always an wasted effort given that the enemy DD is not a BOT.

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6 hours ago, Harpoon01 said:

also

player that already get used to other type of DD, IT IS NOT confidence, it is just the habit of using gunnery Destroyer that they somewhat try to use the IJN Torpboat guns in smoke

 

What, its legit tactics

you hit your torps, then the victim use damage control

you smoke up, or just launch some potshoot before going into cover, or just gun them when they distracted in hope for setting up fire

 

relying 100% on torps is like lottery

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That Torp then stack a fire with guns work for every other DD line.
And honestly speaking, IJN DDs work the least in that aspect due to the fires they produce isn't as reliable as the other DDs.
 

On 10/9/2017 at 11:34 AM, Teostra said:

The problem with IJN dd is they are too dependant on their torp for dealing damages, yes their guns are still usable but compared to other DD literally everyone have better guns, except maybe akizuki.

In high tier meta where everyone is passive, radar, floatplanes, and hydro everywhere makes life of IJN DD even harder

And this is pretty much what the thread is for. Other DDs can depend on their guns waaay better than the IJN DDs can. That said, there are ways to make your torps more reliable to lean back on by keeping in mind a lot of little things at a time.

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