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HMS_Audacious

I forgot what I was going to say

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I sat down in front of my computer cuz I came up with something to discuss on the forum but as soon as it turned on, I forgot what to say.

 

So I am rather going to bring up the issue that has been bothering some of the players for the last few months.

RADAR

 

1. The current radar is quite powerful against some ships and in certain situations(to a level of being almost unreasonable).

If a Des Moine sail up to an island behind a cap circle and wait for the capture to pop up and then turn on his radar, the DD inside is as good as dead. There is no counterplay for this, you just have to stay out of the cap or you just have to hope that the enemy team is a bunch of potatoes.

This is the main reason why most of the DD players(especially the Japanese destroyers, stay out of the capture and 'torp snipe')

2. Unfair Radar MM

I believe you all have experienced situation when there are no radar cruisers on your side and a few on the other side. In this case, your team pretty much have to give up capping at the initial stage of the game. This of course results in the unbalance of capture points and force your team to make more aggressive plays. But most of the time, your team will likely lose to the team that has more radar. There is no doubt that the team that has more radar has the upper hand in battles.

 

This is all my opinion though, I would like to know what you guys think. I am not saying that they should remove radar from the game but they should really even out the mm for radar ships and the fact that radars and sonars can see through islands makes me laugh.

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Maybe making radar work in line of sight (except through smoke) could solve a few problems. A radar ship would have to expose itself to threaten a capping DD unless his allied DD sets up a smokescreen or the target DD has smoked up himself. Also radar should not go beyond cyclone spotting range, at least for a bb based radar like Missouri

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1 minute ago, Adm_Kunkka said:

Maybe making radar work in line of sight (except through smoke) could solve a few problems. A radar ship would have to expose itself to threaten a capping DD unless his allied DD sets up a smokescreen or the target DD has smoked up himself. Also radar should not go beyond cyclone spotting range, at least for a bb based radar like Missouri

Most definitely, the current radar system (at least in my opinion) is a result of WG's laziness cuz setting the radar system to be blocked by islands or obstacles is cleary much more work than having radr to just see through everything in range.

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9 minutes ago, Mingfang47 said:

Same, I question the logic on the radar's coverage.

I red somewhere that US radars (in real life) can distinguish between islands & ships as compare to IJN's radar but behind the island.

The fact that there is no counterplay for radar is just frustrating sometimes. Although it doesn't really matter if you are in a battleship lol.

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9 minutes ago, HMS_Audacious said:

The fact that there is no counterplay for radar is just frustrating sometimes. Although it doesn't really matter if you are in a battleship lol.

there is, baiting radars, reverse capping and counter radaring all works quite fine. besides as long as a DD isnt brain dead he wont usually try to cap a point defended by a DM, there are much better places you could be in

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5 minutes ago, drakon233 said:

there is, baiting radars, reverse capping and counter radaring all works quite fine. besides as long as a DD isnt brain dead he wont usually try to cap a point defended by a DM, there are much better places you could be in

But this also means that you will get detected and lose HP as you try to bait radar or counter radar. As long as the radar cruiser is intelligent enough you will have to get detected in someway in a dd. And completely giving up a capture point and turning to elsewhere gives a significant tactical advantage to the enemy as you both lose the cap and lose the time you spent to see where the enemy radars are positioned at.

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As a long time Minotaur player, I have my few thoughts. IMO RN CL is even worse than DD in terms of being countered by radar, but there are ways of limiting its effectiveness.

Most radar ships have either shyt ballistics or bad concealment, and they are mostly paper.

The conunterplay for radar ships with bad ballistics is position yourself in a stance that allows you to escape quickly. When he radars you, accelerate, use a bit of maneuver and hide behind terrain. This will minimize the amount of hits they score on you and limiting the damage. It’s okay to temperorily give up the cap, it’s better they take the cap and you stay alive rather than they take the cap and kill you.

For radar ships with bad concealment (Moskva Dimitri Missouri), only in rare circumstances do they try radar the cap, and they often have difficulty plotting the correct timing for radar.

The major exception for both is Chapayev, concealing, well ranged radar and excellent ballistics. However it has shyt armor and turns like a BB, when you meet one just F3 him and he will be deleted soon.

However IMO we should limit radar, for example only the one carrying the radar can see the ship being rendered, while his teammates can see the icon on the minimap. This will allow radar to continue it’s team support capability, allowing people to know where DDs are while limiting how much damage one radar can cause.

3DE358B9-4FE9-4363-86A4-BB234D98ADB3.png

Edited by HMS_Swiftsure_08

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56 minutes ago, HMS_Audacious said:

......... If a Des Moine sail up to an island behind a cap circle and wait for the capture to pop up and then turn on his radar, the DD inside is as good as dead. .....

Are we playing the same game? That's a mighty big if. Most of the time the botes with radar on my team never get within radar range of the enemy :Smile_sad: 

And many times even if they are they haven't used it. :Smile_facepalm:

Edited by keskparane

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Radar isn't really that bad tbh. Belfast is legit OP, nothing we can do about that, but the other radar ships all have a big detection to radar range area where you can spot them first. And also, as long you reverse into cap, wait for radar to pop or wait to be spotted before enabling engine boost to WASD out of cap, you're safe.

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18 minutes ago, HMS_Audacious said:

But this also means that you will get detected and lose HP as you try to bait radar or counter radar. As long as the radar cruiser is intelligent enough you will have to get detected in someway in a dd. And completely giving up a capture point and turning to elsewhere gives a significant tactical advantage to the enemy as you both lose the cap and lose the time you spent to see where the enemy radars are positioned at.

fair points, frankly the most difficult ship to fight against after he has achived a stragitigic position behind a island is dank mois and the ONLY way of killing it without major damage is to have HE spammers flank him at a safe distence and spam him to death or to have a 16+ inch guns BB do a driveby on him, any CA CL DDs that tries to drive it off will just end up with a citadel full of FREEDOM shells or be shreded by that high ROF HE

 

the fact it has radar makes it even worse

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10 minutes ago, drakon233 said:

fair points, frankly the most difficult ship to fight against after he has achived a stragitigic position behind a island is dank mois and the ONLY way of killing it without major damage is to have HE spammers flank him at a safe distence and spam him to death or to have a 16+ inch guns BB do a driveby on him, any CA CL DDs that tries to drive it off will just end up with a citadel full of FREEDOM shells or be shreded by that high ROF HE

 

the fact it has radar makes it even worse

 

Honestly, Des Moines doesn't seem too scary. The flight time of the shell is enough to make WASD really effefctive so :I

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3 minutes ago, FishyPower said:

 

Honestly, Des Moines doesn't seem too scary. The flight time of the shell is enough to make WASD really effefctive so :I

Yes but his team’s shells aren’t....

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1 minute ago, HMS_Audacious said:

Yes but his team’s shells aren’t....

 

If you do it right, to get spotted for at most 20 secs.And that is the amount of time you get when you fire and wait to vanish. If you can't survive 20secs of incoming fire from enemies 10+km away, then it really is your own fault

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The problem is, compared to the Battleship Moskva, Hindenburger or the Zao, the DM is armoured with cardboard and goes down like a $10 'Person of negotiable affection'. At least with proper positioning.

 

Yes, Radar has a massive power.....but only for 40 seconds. Closer to a minute with the right Upgrade Module, which you got in a Supercontainer, but lets face it, those are rare.

The range is less than 10km, which means you already know how far a radius to avoid. Your guns have a longer range than that, torps too. But more importantly, he has a duration and limited numbers of charges.

I've lost track of how many games I've played in my US cruiser where I've never even gotten a chance to use my radar. Because the moment you are close enough, you are spotted and focus fired by every BB who wants an easy kill. 

Radar is incredibly situational. You need to be 1) In the right position without being detected.  2) Or survive long enough to get there. Of course, now the entire enemy side knows where the radar ship is and the smart DD's just avoid a 10km circle around you.

Then you need to use it. If you are hiding behind an island, you team needs to be in position, ready, with guns loaded with the right ammo and pointed in the right direction. THEN you pop off the Radar. Otherwise, you pop it off and while you can't fire yourself, no one else is ready to take advantage of it. 

 

In the mean time, the enemy DD has noticed he is being detected and begun WASD hax. DD's are nimble, accelerate fast and shoul dbe able to dodge significant amounts of fire. A few seconds later, the DD is out of the radar radius and you are left feeling like a 3rd wheel becuase now you've pissed off the other side and they have a BB aiming at you.

 

End result, yes it's powerful. However, German Hydro is just as powerful, if having a shorter range and ridiculously longer duration. Russian Radar has a larger radius. But the power of Radar, in the right situation, is the long cool down and relatively fragile ships compared to their tier-mates (Ibuki aside).

 

The way I see it, in order to stay true to the USN of WW2, there should be an option for USN BB's on North Carolina and up to have it, but change how it works.

USN Radar had a 30mile range, but was a pulse.More importantly, that was the BIG USN thing in WW2. Radar Master Race. 

So why not alter how Radar works, give it the 45km range, but it's not 40-60 seconds of identification, it's 5 seconds. Across the entire map. Good enough to target with? Maybe. If you are both good and lucky and have a fast turret rotation. It's not supposed to be. It's there to find everything, so other vessels can go in and deal with them.

 

I think Radar is being misapplied in the game, It should be for BB's, with a much shorter duration, shorter cooldown and more charges. I can see, at Tier 10, a US BB having 5-6 charges, 5 second duration, 1 minute cool down. A Cruiser may have half the duration, half the range and more importantly, the inability to tell between an island and a ship that is within 1km of an island.  Make that the Schtick for the USN line. The Japanese have their torpedo's and shell-grouping. The Germans have Hydro, the British have super-ultra-high-ex with extra napalm on top. The french have speed enough that I know I have an inability to hit them with the first 2 salvo's from a cruiser and that's before they dodge. The US, especially at the top 3 tiers, have ........good AA? that's it. Not good enough to stop a same or higher tier CV who wants to hit you, but decent. Hindenburg AA is better than the DM in my mind. Moskva has larger radius radar and longer range guns than the DM. Zao has troll armour for tanking. Not to mention Moskva's almost 5km range advantage, Zao has slightly less, Hindenburg is incredibly difficult to citadel unless you are in a Yamato.

 

Sure, DM has excellent ROF, but the pay off is being less robust, more of a target, requires a vastly different play style to the other top tier CA's, It's Radar is powerful, but situational. Using it on the Ocean map, Tears of the Cruiser map, or other 'extra large and open' maps is difficult and often pointless. Lad of Fire suits it best. 

 

So rather than winge about how powerful it is, next time, change your play style. Use multiple DD's to plunder the cap with Torps, use the opportunity while their DD is caping, to spot and hammer the DD's backup. Avoid area's with known Radar ships, be versatile. That's a DD's role. Same with a CA really. 

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13 minutes ago, FinbarAu said:

The problem is, compared to the Battleship Moskva, Hindenburger or the Zao, the DM is armoured with cardboard and goes down like a $10 'Person of negotiable affection'. At least with proper positioning.

 

Yes, Radar has a massive power.....but only for 40 seconds. Closer to a minute with the right Upgrade Module, which you got in a Supercontainer, but lets face it, those are rare.

The range is less than 10km, which means you already know how far a radius to avoid. Your guns have a longer range than that, torps too. But more importantly, he has a duration and limited numbers of charges.

I've lost track of how many games I've played in my US cruiser where I've never even gotten a chance to use my radar. Because the moment you are close enough, you are spotted and focus fired by every BB who wants an easy kill. 

Radar is incredibly situational. You need to be 1) In the right position without being detected.  2) Or survive long enough to get there. Of course, now the entire enemy side knows where the radar ship is and the smart DD's just avoid a 10km circle around you.

Then you need to use it. If you are hiding behind an island, you team needs to be in position, ready, with guns loaded with the right ammo and pointed in the right direction. THEN you pop off the Radar. Otherwise, you pop it off and while you can't fire yourself, no one else is ready to take advantage of it. 

 

In the mean time, the enemy DD has noticed he is being detected and begun WASD hax. DD's are nimble, accelerate fast and shoul dbe able to dodge significant amounts of fire. A few seconds later, the DD is out of the radar radius and you are left feeling like a 3rd wheel becuase now you've pissed off the other side and they have a BB aiming at you.

 

End result, yes it's powerful. However, German Hydro is just as powerful, if having a shorter range and ridiculously longer duration. Russian Radar has a larger radius. But the power of Radar, in the right situation, is the long cool down and relatively fragile ships compared to their tier-mates (Ibuki aside).

 

The way I see it, in order to stay true to the USN of WW2, there should be an option for USN BB's on North Carolina and up to have it, but change how it works.

USN Radar had a 30mile range, but was a pulse.More importantly, that was the BIG USN thing in WW2. Radar Master Race. 

So why not alter how Radar works, give it the 45km range, but it's not 40-60 seconds of identification, it's 5 seconds. Across the entire map. Good enough to target with? Maybe. If you are both good and lucky and have a fast turret rotation. It's not supposed to be. It's there to find everything, so other vessels can go in and deal with them.

 

I think Radar is being misapplied in the game, It should be for BB's, with a much shorter duration, shorter cooldown and more charges. I can see, at Tier 10, a US BB having 5-6 charges, 5 second duration, 1 minute cool down. A Cruiser may have half the duration, half the range and more importantly, the inability to tell between an island and a ship that is within 1km of an island.  Make that the Schtick for the USN line. The Japanese have their torpedo's and shell-grouping. The Germans have Hydro, the British have super-ultra-high-ex with extra napalm on top. The french have speed enough that I know I have an inability to hit them with the first 2 salvo's from a cruiser and that's before they dodge. The US, especially at the top 3 tiers, have ........good AA? that's it. Not good enough to stop a same or higher tier CV who wants to hit you, but decent. Hindenburg AA is better than the DM in my mind. Moskva has larger radius radar and longer range guns than the DM. Zao has troll armour for tanking. Not to mention Moskva's almost 5km range advantage, Zao has slightly less, Hindenburg is incredibly difficult to citadel unless you are in a Yamato.

 

Sure, DM has excellent ROF, but the pay off is being less robust, more of a target, requires a vastly different play style to the other top tier CA's, It's Radar is powerful, but situational. Using it on the Ocean map, Tears of the Cruiser map, or other 'extra large and open' maps is difficult and often pointless. Lad of Fire suits it best. 

 

So rather than winge about how powerful it is, next time, change your play style. Use multiple DD's to plunder the cap with Torps, use the opportunity while their DD is caping, to spot and hammer the DD's backup. Avoid area's with known Radar ships, be versatile. That's a DD's role. Same with a CA really. 

 

There we go. Perfect

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1 hour ago, FishyPower said:

 

If you do it right, to get spotted for at most 20 secs.And that is the amount of time you get when you fire and wait to vanish. If you can't survive 20secs of incoming fire from enemies 10+km away, then it really is your own fault

Yes you would usually survive but the result is that you lose about half or clos HP while you get focused which results in much passive gameplay afterwards. Also it is quite usual to see more than one or two radar disparaties between teams in higher tier games. One side would get two radars and other with none. It’s quite often that I see this. Moreover the radar forces out much more skill from dd players than cruisers or battleships. It is quite easy for a radar cruiser to park next to an island and farm spotting damage and prevent caps from being taken. While the opposing side will have to come up with some risky tactics to remove this threat or just abandon it.

Edited by HMS_Audacious

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22 minutes ago, HMS_Audacious said:

Yes you would usually survive but the result is that you lose about half or clos HP while you get focused which results in much passive gameplay afterwards. Also it is quite usual to see more than one or two radar disparaties between teams in higher tier games. One side would get two radars and other with none. It’s quite often that I see this. Moreover the radar forces out much more skill from dd players than cruisers or battleships. It is quite easy for a radar cruiser to park next to an island and farm spotting damage and prevent caps from being taken. While the opposing side will have to come up with some risky tactics to remove this threat or just abandon it.

 

No. Half hp from 10+km isn't acceptable either. Look, if my Prinz Eugen running away takes 5k before vanishing, DD isn't really that hard. Plus if you know that there is a shit ton of support at that cap, go somewhere else. it isn't that hard

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13 hours ago, FishyPower said:

 

Honestly, Des Moines doesn't seem too scary. The flight time of the shell is enough to make WASD really effefctive so :I

 

Honestly you have no idea about Des Moines.

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14 hours ago, icy_phoenix said:

 

Honestly you have no idea about Des Moines.

 

More scared of the Minotaur honestly, though my only T10 is the GK which might explain why I don't fear the Des Moines as much

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