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Sparcie

Frustration at T8

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I had the most frustrating time last night, I decided to play my North Carolina for most of the night and just couldn't find a way to enjoy a game. I ended up in mostly T10 games, but I didn't think that unusual.

It's not that I did badly, I actually had a good WR and mostly ok damage. It's hard to describe, but basically the high tier meta just sucks to play.

You're forced into passive behaviour just to survive more than a minute, if you're spotted you're dead before you can reload your guns. Because everyone plays hide and seek, anyone that's spotted gets 5-6 ships shooting at them from behind islands or in smoke. I managed to survive and win often enough, but it just wasn't fun at all.

Shooting at high tier ships I don't seem to be able to damage them as well as I'd hope with AP. It's no wonder BBs spam HE even if they aren't RN. It seems every shot I have there's either bounces or overpens and nothing else even on softer targets like cruisers. But then occasionally when RNG decides to bless you, you nail someone for like 28k damage and that feels unfair for the person on the receiving end. It seems that there's no in between damage you either get nothing or heaps. That's if you manage to spot someone in your arc of fire.

Oh and if your teams destroyers manage to get themselves killed 5-0 to the enemy DDs of which there are 5 now prowling around you've got buckleys chance of doing anything useful.

I think the best way to describe it is that high tier play looks like a slower version of the World of Tanks battles with more guns. That would be fine if they were tanks, but it doesn't feel like naval combat at all.

Edited by Sparcie

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It's been a common complaint about the Tier 8 matchmaking, having so many Tier 10 games, for a while now.

 

WG knows about it, weather or not they do something, is entirely up to them.

Personally, I'd prefer the match making to be + or- 1 level, not two.

But does the server have the numbers to handle that? I mean, outside of peak times, I wouldn't be surprised if it doesnt.

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I think the maps that appear in the rotation at higher tiers might be part of the issue. I think there is probably too much concealment on a few of them.

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The issue definitely is the +/-2 tiers Match Making.

I assume WG haven't made all the tiers have Tier IV MM due to low player population and/or tier population.

It needs to be done but it won't... Unless we're ready to accept longer wait times, by a few magnitudes.

 

Tee

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I don't really fancy high tier gameplay for similar reasons as well. The game just gets very stagnant there.

And I know what you mean about BB AP, it feels very spikey. You either do tons of damage or just get a lot of bounces or overpens. There is no in-between.

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12 hours ago, Sparcie said:

I had the most frustrating time last night, I decided to play my North Carolina for most of the night and just couldn't find a way to enjoy a game. I ended up in mostly T10 games, but I didn't think that unusual.

It's not that I did badly, I actually had a good WR and mostly ok damage. It's hard to describe, but basically the high tier meta just sucks to play.

You're forced into passive behaviour just to survive more than a minute, if you're spotted you're dead before you can reload your guns. Because everyone plays hide and seek, anyone that's spotted gets 5-6 ships shooting at them from behind islands or in smoke. I managed to survive and win often enough, but it just wasn't fun at all.

Shooting at high tier ships I don't seem to be able to damage them as well as I'd hope with AP. It's no wonder BBs spam HE even if they aren't RN. It seems every shot I have there's either bounces or overpens and nothing else even on softer targets like cruisers. But then occasionally when RNG decides to bless you, you nail someone for like 28k damage and that feels unfair for the person on the receiving end. It seems that there's no in between damage you either get nothing or heaps. That's if you manage to spot someone in your arc of fire.

Oh and if your teams destroyers manage to get themselves killed 5-0 to the enemy DDs of which there are 5 now prowling around you've got buckleys chance of doing anything useful.

I think the best way to describe it is that high tier play looks like a slower version of the World of Tanks battles with more guns. That would be fine if they were tanks, but it doesn't feel like naval combat at all.

 

Ok, you need to learn how to do plunging fire. This crucial for AP. I tried my Prinz Eugen at even at 15,16km, I was aimming at the waterline, so you realize the shell comes down near vertical and hits the vertical wall, leading to a bounce. Now you aim slightly behind, so that shell his the horizontal deck and pens. Ez damage. It takes some practice, so don't be nervous or frustrated.

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1 minute ago, FishyPower said:

 

Ok, you need to learn how to do plunging fire. This crucial for AP. I tried my Prinz Eugen at even at 15,16km, I was aimming at the waterline, so you realize the shell comes down near vertical and hits the vertical wall, leading to a bounce. Now you aim slightly behind, so that shell his the horizontal deck and pens. Ez damage. It takes some practice, so don't be nervous or frustrated.

NC doesn't do plunging fire as well (relatively bad dispersion in the plunging fire range), it's best range for good damage is closer than that (but not too close) but outside of it's concealment range

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59 minutes ago, FishyPower said:

 

Ok, you need to learn how to do plunging fire. This crucial for AP. I tried my Prinz Eugen at even at 15,16km, I was aimming at the waterline, so you realize the shell comes down near vertical and hits the vertical wall, leading to a bounce. Now you aim slightly behind, so that shell his the horizontal deck and pens. Ez damage. It takes some practice, so don't be nervous or frustrated.

I am quite sure German 203mm AP would bounce off the deck at 16km.  The German AP would need at least 23km to even start penetrating the deck of ships.
Seriously people keep talking about "plunging fire" and "deck penetrations", when it simply isn't the case. 
Prinz/Eugen have enough penetration with AP to penetrate 127mm of armour through the belt at 17km, I have done it consistently in the game.

Likewise for NC, you would need at least 26km to have you shells start to plunge (Iowa/Monty would require 28km and Yamato about 30km).  In fact the only ships which can reliably use plunging fire in the game I know of are RNCLs (at over 12km), USN CAs (penetration at over 17km, guarantee deck pens at 20km), and the Ishizuchi (at max range).  Note that for RNCLs and USN CAs true plunging fire is only possible due to the generous autobounce angles, coupled with slow shell velocity and thus high arcs.
Actually, since the game shell trajectories and angle of fall approximates real world shell trajectories, you could just google to see at what range the shells will deck penetrate.
Of course this doesn't fit with actual armour penetration values irl, for the game has autobounce angles to simplify calculations.

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43 minutes ago, xscore said:

I am quite sure German 203mm AP would bounce off the deck at 16km.  The German AP would need at least 23km to even start penetrating the deck of ships.
Seriously people keep talking about "plunging fire" and "deck penetrations", when it simply isn't the case. 
Prinz/Eugen have enough penetration with AP to penetrate 127mm of armour through the belt at 17km, I have done it consistently in the game.

Likewise for NC, you would need at least 26km to have you shells start to plunge (Iowa/Monty would require 28km and Yamato about 30km).  In fact the only ships which can reliably use plunging fire in the game I know of are RNCLs (at over 12km), USN CAs (penetration at over 17km, guarantee deck pens at 20km), and the Ishizuchi (at max range).  Note that for RNCLs and USN CAs true plunging fire is only possible due to the generous autobounce angles, coupled with slow shell velocity and thus high arcs.
Actually, since the game shell trajectories and angle of fall approximates real world shell trajectories, you could just google to see at what range the shells will deck penetrate.
Of course this doesn't fit with actual armour penetration values irl, for the game has autobounce angles to simplify calculations.

 

I won't doubt you on that, then I presume it's cause I land my shots through the superstructures? Anyways, I'm firing salvos of AP and doing consistent damage with penetration ribbons. So it's either deck pen or it's superstructure.

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13 hours ago, FishyPower said:

 

I won't doubt you on that, then I presume it's cause I land my shots through the superstructures? Anyways, I'm firing salvos of AP and doing consistent damage with penetration ribbons. So it's either deck pen or it's superstructure.

Usually its upper belt pen or superstructure pen.
The bounces are definitely off the deck, or in the case of some ships (Zao, Hindy, some BBs) off the flared out upper belt

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5 minutes ago, xscore said:

Usually its upper belt pen or superstructure pen.
The bounces are definitely off the deck, or in the case of some ships (Zao, Hindy, some BBs) off the flared out upper belt

 

Yeah, it's the superstructure. I took a look at some of the older replays

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18 hours ago, xscore said:

Actually, since the game shell trajectories and angle of fall approximates real world shell trajectories, you could just google to see at what range the shells will deck penetrate.
Of course this doesn't fit with actual armour penetration values irl, for the game has autobounce angles to simplify calculations.

 

IRL plunging fire doesnt determine just Range of the gun (statistic).

Warship designed in a concept called Zone of Immunity. and so the opposite called Zone of Vulnurability were also exist.

the shell doesnt need to always come from extreme angles to do plunging fire, that because when shell penetrate the armor - just like bullet, it will tumble - deviate from trajectory and/or get deflected further into the ships

 

For example HMS Hood have Zone of Immunity extend up to 18000 yards (16km give or take). according to Vice Admiral Holand - thats how he plan the fight accordingly because above 18000 yards, she was vulnurable to plunging shells - so it was imperative for him to close the gap quickly

but when Bismark sunk the hood, they were at range 17,200 yards (15,700 m).

the most popular theory were plunging shell from bismarck somehow plow through hood vulnurable thin deck armor  and burrow deep into magazine - however at that range, high velocity german gun wont permit the shell coming from steep angle yet it achive similiar result

 

Edited by humusz

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This is why I have stuck myself with T7s until I "git gud" enough to actually enjoy higher tier matches... The economy alone is one issue, and the kind of pew pew pew from sooooo far away action is just not cutting so well for me...

Edited by Kreigg

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12 minutes ago, Kreigg said:

This is why I have stuck myself with T7s until I "git gud" enough to actually enjoy higher tier matches... The economy alone is one issue, and the kind of pew pew pew from sooooo far away action is just not cutting so well for me...

 

Actually, depending on what ships you play, it is almost all like that for early game. Towards end game is where you can have that epic 1v1 duel in your GK and do an 30K salvo broadside at 4km while magically torpedobeating past his torps.

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2 hours ago, humusz said:

 

IRL plunging fire doesnt determine just Range of the gun (statistic).

Warship designed in a concept called Zone of Immunity. and so the opposite called Zone of Vulnurability were also exist.

the shell doesnt need to always come from extreme angles to do plunging fire, that because when shell penetrate the armor - just like bullet, it will tumble - deviate from trajectory and/or get deflected further into the ships

 

For example HMS Hood have Zone of Immunity extend up to 18000 yards (16km give or take). according to Vice Admiral Holand - thats how he plan the fight accordingly because above 18000 yards, she was vulnurable to plunging shells - so it was imperative for him to close the gap quickly

but when Bismark sunk the hood, they were at range 17,200 yards (15,700 m).

the most popular theory were plunging shell from bismarck somehow plow through hood vulnurable thin deck armor  and burrow deep into magazine - however at that range, high velocity german gun wont permit the shell coming from steep angle yet it achive similiar result

 

Ofc, there is no "autobounce" mechanic irl, shells will penetrate or overmatch armour irl as long as it is going fast enough or the armour it penetrates is thin enough.  


As for Hood, I a quite sure at 15.7km the German shells are not plunging enough (about 12 degrees) to actually have any significant deck penetration.   Even if it did penetrate it would be unlikely to hit the magazine.  It is really not hard to conclude that the HMS Hood's belt got penetrated by Bismarck's guns, which can penetrate Hood's belt way past 20km.

" The US Navy calculated that there is a 1 in 6 chance of each penetrating shot exploding either a magazine or the ship’s boilers. Given that the Hood was hit twice like this, she was a little unlucky, but not a lot unlucky. Given how weak her belt armor was, she was not going to last long in a prolonged fight."


If you were to look at the Hood's armour scheme, this is pretty much the most likely scenario.

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1 hour ago, xscore said:

Ofc, there is no "autobounce" mechanic irl, shells will penetrate or overmatch armour irl as long as it is going fast enough or the armour it penetrates is thin enough.  


As for Hood, I a quite sure at 15.7km the German shells are not plunging enough (about 12 degrees) to actually have any significant deck penetration.   Even if it did penetrate it would be unlikely to hit the magazine.  It is really not hard to conclude that the HMS Hood's belt got penetrated by Bismarck's guns, which can penetrate Hood's belt way past 20km.

" The US Navy calculated that there is a 1 in 6 chance of each penetrating shot exploding either a magazine or the ship’s boilers. Given that the Hood was hit twice like this, she was a little unlucky, but not a lot unlucky. Given how weak her belt armor was, she was not going to last long in a prolonged fight."


If you were to look at the Hood's armour scheme, this is pretty much the most likely scenario.

According to admirality, the Hood armor should be provide direct fire immunity to 15inch shell from range bellow  18.000 yards

and in investigation, the angle of fall would be around 18* to 20*.

 

Typicaly when talking about Naval gun plunging fire, there is some misnomer about how extreme the angle the shell fall

At extreme range (30km+) angle of fall of most 14"/15"/16" is only an average of ~35*. the angle of fall is typically less than 30*, with some Plunging fire cases. its much shallower than 30*

18* to 20*  angle of fall on Hood case would be somewhat seems easly deflected or skid when hitting armor of tank. but unlike anti tank gun, battleship shell have great mass

thats why the plunging explanation is more feasible than others as its in borderline of Hood Zone of Vulnurability of plungging fire

 

since zone of immunity and vulnurability typicly measured with ships own armanent

some said, the diffrent stats of german gun would add some probability of error

Edited by humusz

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