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Jiggs79

Making the game more fun

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Hey all,

While WoWs is a pretty fun game, it does seem that some of the design choices have led to some not so fun play styles  - particularly at higher tiers. T10 battles can be sooooooo boring, nothing like a 20 minute battle for a total of 4 ships (across both teams) to sink. A big part of this is the overall design,  so boring when there are a bunch of BBs max range sniping. In terms of the overall meta, I would love to see a much more aggresive play style rather than the current camp meta. I believe that there are a couple of ways of changing this;

1. Change dispersion to be an exponetial rather than linear change. E.g long range sniping = way more dispersion. Fight closer in - even more accurate guns

Failing that, increase the arc (or decrease the speed) of BB shells significanlty to discourage such long range sniping

2. I would also buff secondaries on a number of BBs/ CAs to help promote getting close in

 

Was curious to see some other peoples thoughts on this? Or other ways to promote more aggressive / faster play

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If you increase long-range dispersion, BBs will most definitely continue to camp - in fact, it'll probably increase. This is because the primary motivating factor here is personal safety. Most high-tier players don't like being shot at and absolutely loathe being damaged - being able to shoot effectively themselves is secondary to this. This is why camping is already popular. Increased dispersion on long-range enemy fire means they'll be even safer while sitting up the back sniping.

 

Whatever the solution is, it needs to be handled delicately. We already have 3-man Divisions capable of aggressively dismantling entire flanks by themselves. Any change which makes pushing up attractive to a random, solo BB needs to be tempered by the power it might give to pro Division players.

 

I agree, though. High-tier matches are generally very boring and often frustrating as a solo player.

Edited by Unraveler

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Buffing CA secondaries WILL not promote rushing in for cruisers

-We will be deleted instantly if we play aggresive as matter of fact.

Buffing BB secondaries?

-Oh yes make every battleship secondaries range 10km+ and you will see cruiser get more passive and DD too.

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Is the date Sept 2017 or Sept 2016? From my observation, the so called super camping shyt meta stuff has gone. Although most battles are rather slow in the first half and takes over 15 minutes, but they almost always end with significant casualties. Most BBs are not super pushy, but they do actively participate in the battle and most people are under certain circumstances willing to trade their survival for victory. The economy change did what it intended. Admittedly the high tiers games are rather slow paced compared to lower tiers and people tend to kite more, but generally it isn't very passive.

What I dislike about high tiers is the heavy reliance on spotting. This put too much responsibility on DD and CV captains, making these two classes hard to play. I don't think the meta is easy to change, but IMO a hardcore and more rewarding coop would be fun. Coop is relaxing, and demands basic skills of positioning and gunnery, there's no dirty play division stuff. Remember about a year ago devs tested an early special coop with bot team doubled the amount of player ships? (The map and objective is no different, player ships gets mirrored but doubled, including CV, bots fill up empty player slots) I would like it back, with higher rewards, slightly nerfed bot accuracy, no doubling for CV i.e. 1 player CV corresponds to 1 enemy bot CV, and no bot fill-up.

Edited by HMS_Swiftsure_08

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I'm thinking about making everythings happen faster. Main gun RoF, Turning radius, Rudder shift and all others.
Problem with this is well .... everything is happening faster. It is going to looked weird, awkward and not historically accurate
Like what ? Like Huge warships making a tight turn and go fast like a speedboat shooting its huge main battery every 16-19 secs.

yeah it doesn't sound good at all its like asking the already arcadey game to be even more arcade but as long as something is happening it should not give the feeling of boredom.
Sadly it just makes everything faster it doesn't fix the problem we have.
 

About dispersion change. I don't think it will help the situation we have in fact its going to make it worse. Basically what happen is players will kite more often.
Because when the ship is kiting whoever is trying to shoot at that ship has to give a lead at further away from the shooter and if that dispersion change applies the shooter will likely to missed.
Meanwhile the shooter (being kited) has to deal with increased accuracy from kiter because kiter will be giving a lead at closer range. (Assuming the shooter is chasing the kiter)

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To be fair, It's a bit of a balancing act when and how far you push as a BB. Too soon and too far and you get insta focused with mostly zero chance of escape. Too late and its game over before you can really impact the game. Same goes for cruisers and DD but too a lesser extent due to those ships being a bit more maneuverable(still not pleasant though!).

Not to say I agree with sitting at 20km taking pot shots all game, just saying it's sometimes not always easy to pick when to tank like a boss. What also doesn't encourage aggressive play is when your team mates desert you or team DD won't spot or lay some covering smoke for you. If you aren't in a Div then you have no way of knowing if you will receive any support.

Still. I usually try and take a few for the team anyway, sometimes it works out, other times not so much hahaha

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4 hours ago, Jiggs79 said:

1. Change dispersion to be an exponetial rather than linear change. E.g long range sniping = way more dispersion. Fight closer in - even more accurate guns

Failing that, increase the arc (or decrease the speed) of BB shells significanlty to discourage such long range sniping

 

Not sure if I am late.... Is that already a thing across all the tiers? My long range shooting on my battleships' shell salvos are quite noticeably and usually that dispersed. Close range shell dispersion is accurate. So... dunno what I missed these past few days.

4 hours ago, Jiggs79 said:

2. I would also buff secondaries on a number of BBs/ CAs to help promote getting close in

Promoting close-in combat. Aren't a well-placed AP shell, secondary guns, and torpedoes enough for that?

 

If you want faster gameplay, have your teammates accurately damage the enemy and not to get themselves killed early. You can finish a battle in under 10 mins. Usually the battles ends in average of 12 mins.

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Interesting that most people think that with mega increased dispersion that there will be even more camping. If sniping from 20kms was almost impossible to get a hit - surerly more people will push forward?

Part of the reasoning is - when I play a bismark for example, often times I am ahead of most ships. My dispersion is so bad and my secondaries (were) so handy that it made sense to push and be aggressive. When ppl suck at the bismark they are usually at the back of the map.


Agree that on the lack of team play - I think it needs to be more like game like battlefield - you get points for helping your team. It would be good to have this called out as a visual aid with reward to players - e.g. see and encourage 'good' behaviour

 

Ohh and swiftsure - maybe it is not as campy as it once was. But it is still so goddamn slow that it is not fun

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Mingfang - you missed the point about it being exponetial versus linear increase in dispersion . This would make the effect far more pronounced.
 

26 minutes ago, Mingfang47 said:

Promoting close-in combat. Aren't a well-placed AP shell, secondary guns, and torpedoes enough for that?

If you want faster gameplay, have your teammates accurately damage the enemy and not to get themselves killed early. You can finish a battle in under 10 mins. Usually the battles ends in average of 12 mins.

Clearly not - or we would not be talking about this.

Sure you can finish a battle in under 20 mins - but a lot of them time out. Or the classic of lets chase each other round a map of domination. Boring!

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43 minutes ago, Jiggs79 said:

Interesting that most people think that with mega increased dispersion that there will be even more camping. If sniping from 20kms was almost impossible to get a hit - surerly more people will push forward?

Part of the reasoning is - when I play a bismark for example, often times I am ahead of most ships. My dispersion is so bad and my secondaries (were) so handy that it made sense to push and be aggressive. When ppl suck at the bismark they are usually at the back of the map.

 

I suspect the thought process of the average Battleship player goes something like this:

 

Stage 1: Battleship! The queen of the sea! Awesome! All ahead full!

Stage 2: What the... Where did all those torpedoes come from? Better stay back a bit.

Stage 3: What the... Those Cruisers just kept setting me on fire. Better stay back further.

Stage 4: I survived right to the end but my team wouldn't spot for me and then they all died. Stupid team!

 

And that's as far as they get. They'll remain in Stage 4 mode right up until Tier 10.

 

Fusou is a good example: 1.5 sigma, horrible shell speeds, it's the epitome of a mid-range battleship. Yet, because it can shoot at over 20km that's where you'll find most players positioned. Lobbing salvo after salvo, just hoping for a lucky hit (or a fire...). What a waste of a borderline OP ship.

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One big question that no one asked. Whenever match goes wrong, or dragged on, why always say its BB's fault? How long will this BS going to continue? I see most Japanese destroyer players are far more incompetent in accomplishing anything in battle. Or right, they have an excuse, "Muh torps got nerfed", and with that excuse, another line is always added "cause BB players whined".

 

I have got an idea, remove BBs from the game, should solve all problems. No more camping (ofcourse Zaos and Hindenbergs and Moskvas do man fight all day from 18km, IJN DDs doing incredible jobs at blue lines,  but its DEFINITELY BBs are the problem). And remove CVs too. They are overpowered, one shots DDs, and very hard to balance. Do mary-go-round with cruisers around the cap, fun and intense game indeed.

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Battleships have the unique ability to withstand vast amounts of enemy fire (literal fires, too). It's an important trait that can provide their teammates with a tremendous advantage when employed appropriately. Conversely, Battleships that spend an entire battle avoiding enemy attention are placing a heavy burden on their teammates, many of which will be poorly equipped to tank the resulting fire. These are the Battleships that will be alive and well - full health - at the battle's conclusion, camping near a map border or behind terrain while the rest of the team is dead.

 

If Cruisers commonly refused to use their guns ("I only use torps!") or Destroyers commonly went crawling around map borders ("I'll kill the CV!") we would likewise be similarly frustrated. But those aren't common, while camping Battleships still are ("I don't like being shot at!").

 

Can you imagine if every battle was pitched, a series of thrusts and retreats around strategic points... Just imagine how wondrous it would be if each class played to their respective strengths, for the sake of the team... Will it be forever but a dream?

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Part of the problem we have are all the one liners (players who only play one line) complaining about what others are doing without understanding why.

Making dispersion worse at long range won't deter people from being at long range, but they might not be rewarded as much. Lowering the gun velocity might actually make it worse as that would result in more plunging fire which is often more effective against some ships (which have weaker deck armour). It's not always a bad thing to be far away in terms of shell effectiveness. The scenario killer whale comes to mind. There is a kaiser at the back of the map, if you shoot at it from long range where your shells are plunging you can damage it very effectively. There's a point where that stops and it's armour becomes much more effective, and then once you're quite close you're close enough to do good damage again by shooting it in the broadside.

It's true that BB's have the biggest HP pool, but they can still wither if too close, so I agree it's a delicate balancing act to pick the right spot. Because they are slow to change course this can mean the battle leaves them behind or overwhelms them before they can change where they are. My experience is that pushing in a BB is only wise if you have team mates coming to help with the push, if not you'll be on the bottom or severely damaged. Judging when to push can be tricky, I've seen team mates abandon their BBs so often I understand why they are reluctant to do so, other times when the team works well, they'll steam roll the opposition.

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+1 from me Unraveler and Jiggs, I like the idea of an exponential increase, though as Unraveler pointed out by "stage 4" it's just camping, and to be honest there are plenty of times at higher tiers when I've played a BB and pushed in only to find the CAs that were with me have peeled off so it isn't always just the BBs. I think there just has to be a consensus that a group will move up and continue to push together, combined arms is when things are most effective. I tend to play pretty agressively so if you see me on the seas ask me to push up with you and I'll happy follow. :cap_rambo:

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Love the thoughts unraveller! Would be good if the game actually rewarded the behaviours visibily - might get more players doing it

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19 hours ago, Unraveler said:

If Cruisers commonly refused to use their guns ("I only use torps!") or Destroyers commonly went crawling around map borders ("I'll kill the CV!") we would likewise be similarly frustrated. But those aren't common, while camping Battleships still are ("I don't like being shot at!").

 

Idk, from my experience, the DD thing is pretty common. A BB may have his impact on game, but DD playing his role is a must to win the battle. A BB can sit back and camp for all I care, but A DD who ignores the cap will make you lose. You can win dragging a bad BB player, you cannot win dragging a team who lost all DDs in 4 minutes, or have a bad CV player. I mostly play high tier and I don't see much problem with BBs, as I see with DDs, specifically, IJN DDs. I don't know about low tiers and I don't care either what happens in low tiers.

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Trust me DD refuses to cap and derp around is actually as common as BB sniping at the map borders.
Different class of ship same old situation contribute to team's defeat.
 

Its the same old circle of madness.
You play BB then its DD doesn't do what its suppose to do.
And so you switch to DD and then its the BB can't do what its best for.
God helps you if you have that kind of CV on your team. It doesn't matter what class of ship you play your team is doomed for this case.
 

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