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Moggytwo

Yugumo is now a better DD than the Fletcher.

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Beta Tester
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I have been having a very good time with the Yugumo since the last patch.  I honestly think TRB Yugumo is better than the Fletcher now - and I absolutely love the Fletcher.  Small sample size, but in about 8 or so battles since the patch I haven't lost and haven't done under 100k.  This won't last of course, but what surprises me about the Yugumo in its current iteration is it's consistency and how well rounded it is - both hallmarks of the Fletcher.

The Yugumo's torps are better than the Fletcher's - slightly better reload, much better damage, slightly faster, much better range.  Add in TRB for 16 torp spreads or the ability to torp two targets simultaneously and it is no contest.  The only negative for the Yugumo torps is the worse concealment, but this honestly doesn't seem to be making much of an impact on hit rates, so long as you maneuvre into favourable firing angles.

The guns on the Fletcher are better overall - but the Yugumo can easily outplay the Fletcher in a gun fight.  The 0.3km better concealment means you can choose the engagement, and can spot for other ships to attack the Fletcher as well.  If you get in a straight knife fight with a Fletcher, you run directly away and maneuvre - at this point the Fletcher can either chase you or break contact.  If he chases, you have 4 guns firing at him and he only has 2 up front - not to mention it is much easier to hit targets chasing you than to hit targets you are chasing - you will significantly out damage the Fletcher here.

The Fletcher has about about 10% more health and is 1 knot faster, but these aren't massive advantages, unlike the 5.5km to 5.8km concealment advantage the Yugumo has.

I also think playing with TRB over smoke makes you more consistent - not just in damage but more importantly in survivability.  You know you don't have the out of popping smoke, so it forces you to rely solely on concealment for survival.  This overall increases your survivability over a smoke equipped Yugumo. Sounds counter intuitive, but that's my perception of how it works.

So in my opinion it's happened - the Yugumo is now a better ship than the Fletcher, and is now the clear gem of the IJN DD line.  I'd also argue it's a better ship than the Shimakaze, but I'll save that for another thread!

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I for one love my Yuugumo over my Fletcher but I want to seriously contest some points of it being better.

At its base, in order to contest Fletcher's reload on the torps, you have to equip the F3s 8km torps, else you'll be losing out at around 10+ base seconds of reload in shooting 8 torps instead of Fletcher's 10. That and in terms of spread, against the usual targets, quint spreads are much more favorable the quad spreads. The use of TRB of course offsets that, and TRB Yuugumo is undisputably a better torp boat than Fletcher.

In a gunfight however, having no smoke severely does cripple Yuugumo in a gunfight with the stealthfire changes. To say that you have engaging disadvantage, that 0.3km concealment advantage isn't as advantageous as it should. You first have to consider that Yuugumo's turret traverse is way worse, overall maneuverability is worse than fletcher. Which that 0.3km advantage if translated into seconds of normal engagements, it'd be lesser due to those soft stats. And you're right on the fact that the Yuugumo player simply has to turn and kite and have the advantage, but a chasing Fletcher does not need to limit himself to 2 guns. He can still use the full brunt at a 30 degree angle WHILE chasing, simply because the Yuugumo is shooting back having the 20s penalty, and there's no need to overextend and maintain the surface detection range.
One clashing advantage is that the Fletcher can simply smoke and sit on it while peppering the Yuugumo once a shot has been done, due to the stealthfire changes, you'd have around ~11km of detection for 20s which would be almost 7 salvos undetected at which the Fletcher can do, additionally to being hit by other allied ships. Proper Smoke use plays a great role in cap engagements, and not having it to cement being "the best T9 torp boat" through TRB does fall off in some situations. Of course, that kind of situation can be mitigated somewhat but not entirely or if the Fletcher simply misuses smoke but overall not exactly something any Yuugumo player finds pleasant.

Don't get me wrong, I for one think the Yuugumo is quite competitive against the Fletcher and shines in a number of situations. Most of the stuff people rate Fletcher highly for is the soft stats that make it really comfortable (traverse, maneuverability, short reloads, good torp angles, long duration smoke) in contrast to Yuugumo's stats which kind of "need" a captain to nullify the disadvantage but can bust out great (if not better) potential.

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15 minutes ago, SZYZWY said:

I for one love my Yuugumo over my Fletcher but I want to seriously contest some points of it being better.

At its base, in order to contest Fletcher's reload on the torps, you have to equip the F3s 8km torps, else you'll be losing out at around 10+ base seconds of reload in shooting 8 torps instead of Fletcher's 10. That and in terms of spread, against the usual targets, quint spreads are much more favorable the quad spreads. The use of TRB of course offsets that, and TRB Yuugumo is undisputably a better torp boat than Fletcher.

In a gunfight however, having no smoke severely does cripple Yuugumo in a gunfight with the stealthfire changes. To say that you have engaging disadvantage, that 0.3km concealment advantage isn't as advantageous as it should. You first have to consider that Yuugumo's turret traverse is way worse, overall maneuverability is worse than fletcher. Which that 0.3km advantage if translated into seconds of normal engagements, it'd be lesser due to those soft stats. And you're right on the fact that the Yuugumo player simply has to turn and kite and have the advantage, but a chasing Fletcher does not need to limit himself to 2 guns. He can still use the full brunt at a 30 degree angle WHILE chasing, simply because the Yuugumo is shooting back having the 20s penalty, and there's no need to overextend and maintain the surface detection range.
One clashing advantage is that the Fletcher can simply smoke and sit on it while peppering the Yuugumo once a shot has been done, due to the stealthfire changes, you'd have around ~11km of detection for 20s which would be almost 7 salvos undetected at which the Fletcher can do, additionally to being hit by other allied ships. Proper Smoke use plays a great role in cap engagements, and not having it to cement being "the best T9 torp boat" through TRB does fall off in some situations. Of course, that kind of situation can be mitigated somewhat but not entirely or if the Fletcher simply misuses smoke but overall not exactly something any Yuugumo player finds pleasant.

Don't get me wrong, I for one think the Yuugumo is quite competitive against the Fletcher and shines in a number of situations. Most of the stuff people rate Fletcher highly for is the soft stats that make it really comfortable (traverse, maneuverability, short reloads, good torp angles, long duration smoke) in contrast to Yuugumo's stats which kind of "need" a captain to nullify the disadvantage but can bust out great (if not better) potential.

 

Don't forget that if you take a TRB Yugumo and there's a semi-competent CV on the enemy team... You are useless.

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Beta Tester
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14 minutes ago, SZYZWY said:

I for one love my Yuugumo over my Fletcher but I want to seriously contest some points of it being better.

At its base, in order to contest Fletcher's reload on the torps, you have to equip the F3s 8km torps, else you'll be losing out at around 10+ base seconds of reload in shooting 8 torps instead of Fletcher's 10. That and in terms of spread, against the usual targets, quint spreads are much more favorable the quad spreads. The use of TRB of course offsets that, and TRB Yuugumo is undisputably a better torp boat than Fletcher.

In a gunfight however, having no smoke severely does cripple Yuugumo in a gunfight with the stealthfire changes. To say that you have engaging disadvantage, that 0.3km concealment advantage isn't as advantageous as it should. You first have to consider that Yuugumo's turret traverse is way worse, overall maneuverability is worse than fletcher. Which that 0.3km advantage if translated into seconds of normal engagements, it'd be lesser due to those soft stats. And you're right on the fact that the Yuugumo player simply has to turn and kite and have the advantage, but a chasing Fletcher does not need to limit himself to 2 guns. He can still use the full brunt at a 30 degree angle WHILE chasing, simply because the Yuugumo is shooting back having the 20s penalty, and there's no need to overextend and maintain the surface detection range.
One clashing advantage is that the Fletcher can simply smoke and sit on it while peppering the Yuugumo once a shot has been done, due to the stealthfire changes, you'd have around ~11km of detection for 20s which would be almost 7 salvos undetected at which the Fletcher can do, additionally to being hit by other allied ships. Proper Smoke use plays a great role in cap engagements, and not having it to cement being "the best T9 torp boat" through TRB does fall off in some situations. Of course, that kind of situation can be mitigated somewhat but not entirely or if the Fletcher simply misuses smoke but overall not exactly something any Yuugumo player finds pleasant.

Don't get me wrong, I for one think the Yuugumo is quite competitive against the Fletcher and shines in a number of situations. Most of the stuff people rate Fletcher highly for is the soft stats that make it really comfortable (traverse, maneuverability, short reloads, good torp angles, long duration smoke) in contrast to Yuugumo's stats which kind of "need" a captain to nullify the disadvantage but can bust out great (if not better) potential.

You're right on the reload, base torp reload is about 10s better on the Fletcher, my bad. If you spec for torp reload on both ships you get the Fletcher at 81s vs the Yugumo at 87s.  Not a huge difference at that point, but advantage Fletcher.  Given this, the extra 2 torps per spread and the concealment difference, there isn't much between them as torp boats if you both take smoke.  The TRB change has really set it apart as a torp boat though (which you noted).

The turret rotation commander skill is an essential part of making the Yugumo work, it gives a 17.3s rotation speed, not even in the same post code as the Fletcher, but that speed does make the guns perfectly workable so long as you don't switch sides mid engagement. While you're right that the Fletcher can flick the stern out to get five guns on target while chasing, this will slow it down and they won't be able to maintain anything like full dpm.  I stand by my claim that the Yugumo is at an advantage here.  You will out dpm the Fletcher in terms of hits on target in this scenario, and if there are too many other ships that are shooting at you, then you can stop firing and drop off detection.  The Fletcher can either break contact, in which case you have effectively won the engagement, or he can continue firing and chasing while you lead him towards your team noting that if he fires until you drop off detection then he will be visible for at least 40s.

Now having smoke is highly useful for cap contesting, but if the Fletcher uses it then they can't see the Yugumo either. The Yugumo has the concealment advantage, and if the Fletcher wants to spot the Yugumo it has to leave it's smoke.  Not to mention we all know what a torp magnet smoke is, where the Yugumo could be anywhere in the other side of the cap really.

I'm definitely not saying that the Yugumo is better at everything than the Fletcher.  They both have their different strengths. I am saying that if you take each ship as an overall package, I think that TRB Yugumo (type 93 mod 3 torps) is now a marginally better ship than the Fletcher.

 

*Takes that bait*

 

Let's look at WTR etc for DD's...

 

:D Khab-chan way ahead

At the risk of derailing my own thread - the Khaba is not OP compared to the other T10 destroyers. It's difficult to directly compare a Khaba to any other destroyer, they have completely different roles, but just because it does 13k more average damage than the next destroyer does not make it OP.  It does less damage than even the last placed T10 cruiser, which are a closer comparison to the Khaba, and is ranked 3 out of 5 for win rate at T10 for DD's.

 

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6 hours ago, TE_Deathskyz said:

 

Don't forget that if you take a TRB Yugumo and there's a semi-competent CV on the enemy team... You are useless.

Agreed, I am not completely sold on TRBs.

I have been bouncing back and forth between smoke and TRB recently, and a lot of times I find myself wishing I had smoke when I had TRB and vice versa. The plethora of radar ships and Hydro DDs make me wish I had picked TRB, and then when I pick TRB, there is a CV match. I can't smoke teammates if I took TRB, and just when I could really do with an extra torp salvo, I had taken smoke. So frustrating.

IJN DDs are just so feast-or-famine. It is like playing the lottery. Some games when the stars align you can do incredible amounts of damage, but then in most other games everybody knows how to WASD hack and can predict your torps just as you fire them, and you finish the game at the bottom of the team list.

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Beta Tester
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Apologies for the necro, but I was comparing my personal stats in these two ships after a bit more time playing them, and they very much confirm my thoughts on the ships.  The Yugumo (TRB) really is a better ship than the Fletcher. Current stats are as follows;

Fletcher - 80 battles, 57% win rate, 1883 average xp, 48.9k average damage, 0.8 kills per battle, 56% survival rate.

Yugumo - 69 battles, 62% win rate, 2037 average xp, 77.3k average damage, 1.3 kills per battle, 84% survival rate.

What I find in the Yugumo is that it is just so incredibly consistent at doing damage.  Many people say the opposite but so long as you are good at predicting enemy ship movements and putting yourself in the right position you can land multiple torps game after game.  Those torps hit like a truck and have a very high flood chance.  What I suspect is that the majority of people simply don't have the awareness to consistently land torps, and for these people the ability to do consistent gun damage from smoke makes the Fletcher better.  Any player of above average or higher will do much better in the Yugumo however, because it is simply a more capable ship.

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Super Tester
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You may try playing Fletcher and Yugumo mixing together, so that you don't run the risk of comparing stats from time where your skills were a bit lower than your current skill. I do believe that IJN DDs have higher damage potential, its just that they don't have defensive advantages like USN ones (both good smoke and good AA). Also, if you are already good with US DD, you will be super good in IJN DD.

Edited by icy_phoenix

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