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LordTyphoon

World of Warships – Pay to win? 

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I love this game as well, & I am quite happy spending money (when I can) buying premium ships, & helping support the warging staff, as i think they do a marvellous job, with all the graphic designing, testing, research, etc... So i dont begrudge anyone spending money on ships they like, i fully support the idea actually, because the staff do need some type of reward for their wonderful effort...

It must also be recognised that the game cannot be called " pay to win", simply because most of the ships available ARE FREE, which means you don't have to buy ships, or flags or premium time etc if you don't want to.

the staff, or or the game itself is not built around trying to goad people into buying things... The best way to compare the game, would be a supermarket.... Where you have the choice of only getting what you need, or getting extra things like soft drinks, cakes, chips. Etc

There is no pressure to buy.

no ship really is too much OP compared to others, more often than not, its how good the player is that defines how the ship performs....

I myself have the Saipan.... But I rarely play it because I am only an average CV player, & when I do play it, I usually get trashed.... Compare that with the ranger, which I also have, & I still get trashed.... & that's the free ship...

I also have Kutuzov, but again, I'm only a mediocre player in it, I can tend to do better in my yorck... 

Everyone hates krazny krym, but its one of my best cruisers... The other being Konigsberg... The free ship.

the upcoming British BB line, it will be all free, except for the premiums hood, warspite...

in my experience, I usually get more damaged by the free ships more than premiums...

A great deal of my ships ARE premium... & I don't care if the teams are mainly premium or hardly premium, because they are balanced.... They each have their own attributes, & also their own weaknesses, & mostly are quite capable of dealing with their free tech tree counterparts......

 

I don't take sides in who has better ships, or which ships is better... They are ALL good, they all have their balancing factors, & anyone can be good & crap in them.... The main idea is to have fun, & I think its great having premium stuff to buy if you want to... & it doesn't make anyone any more important than the rest of us, if we have ports full of free ships, or premium ships.

well done WG staff, I for one am happy to contribute buying premium ships , when I see ships I like.

Ordrazz

:Smile_honoring:

 

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21 minutes ago, Adm_Kunkka said:

Wow OP has no idea how to to counter any valid argument other than throwing vague insults and basically sneering at people playing a free game for free. I'm sure my first reply here is adequately clear for anyone with actual powers to comprehend simple sentences, and I have already proven any vague nonsense op is spewing is meaningless.

Please support your point: 'OP has no idea how to to counter any valid argument other than throwing vague insults and basically sneering at people playing a free game for free'. Where did I do any of that?

 

That's funny because I countered your entire argument. 

 

You believing your argument cannot be countered is proof that I shouldn't have bothered talking back at you in the first place lol. 

 

10 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

I think the biggest flaw in the OP's argument is linking f2p and p2w together, and asserting that WG needs to make overpowered p2w Premium ships for the game to survive. As others have already said, this is certainly not true.

WOW. I did not say that!!!!! Why am I being so heavily misunderstood?!?!

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16 minutes ago, Ordrazz said:

I love this game as well, & I am quite happy spending money (when I can) buying premium ships, & helping support the warging staff, as i think they do a marvellous job, with all the graphic designing, testing, research, etc... So i dont begrudge anyone spending money on ships they like, i fully support the idea actually, because the staff do need some type of reward for their wonderful effort...

It must also be recognised that the game cannot be called " pay to win", simply because most of the ships available ARE FREE, which means you don't have to buy ships, or flags or premium time etc if you don't want to.

the staff, or or the game itself is not built around trying to goad people into buying things... The best way to compare the game, would be a supermarket.... Where you have the choice of only getting what you need, or getting extra things like soft drinks, cakes, chips. Etc

There is no pressure to buy.

no ship really is too much OP compared to others, more often than not, its how good the player is that defines how the ship performs....

I myself have the Saipan.... But I rarely play it because I am only an average CV player, & when I do play it, I usually get trashed.... Compare that with the ranger, which I also have, & I still get trashed.... & that's the free ship...

I also have Kutuzov, but again, I'm only a mediocre player in it, I can tend to do better in my yorck... 

Everyone hates krazny krym, but its one of my best cruisers... The other being Konigsberg... The free ship.

the upcoming British BB line, it will be all free, except for the premiums hood, warspite...

in my experience, I usually get more damaged by the free ships more than premiums...

A great deal of my ships ARE premium... & I don't care if the teams are mainly premium or hardly premium, because they are balanced.... They each have their own attributes, & also their own weaknesses, & mostly are quite capable of dealing with their free tech tree counterparts......

 

I don't take sides in who has better ships, or which ships is better... They are ALL good, they all have their balancing factors, & anyone can be good & crap in them.... The main idea is to have fun, & I think its great having premium stuff to buy if you want to... & it doesn't make anyone any more important than the rest of us, if we have ports full of free ships, or premium ships.

well done WG staff, I for one am happy to contribute buying premium ships , when I see ships I like.

Ordrazz

:Smile_honoring:

 

 

^The main points of what I was trying to say. 

 

Apparently you will be crapped on in these forums here for having an opinion like that. 

 

The moment anyone on this forum thinks that there are no OP ships (and there aren't, they're strong ships as best), that person HAS TO DIE immediately. 

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8 minutes ago, LordTyphoon said:

Please support your point: 'OP has no idea how to to counter any valid argument other than throwing vague insults and basically sneering at people playing a free game for free'. Where did I do any of that?

 

That's funny because I countered your entire argument. 

 

You believing your argument cannot be countered is proof that I shouldn't have bothered talking back at you in the first place lol. 

 

WOW. I did not say that!!!!! Why am I being so heavily misunderstood?!?!

Take this reply for example. Its a universally agreed fact that saipan and belfast are in no way balanced, and I do not need to repeat all the points already made to prove this. Your counter argument here tries to say that if a noob cant do well in a saipan or a belfast, its because the ships is balanced rather than the simple fact that the player is a noob. Between two players of comparable skills the one with a broken premium will always have an unfair advantage- even between two noobs. You never countered my arguments and just declared that you did. You have a flawed concept in your head that a f2p game cannot be completely balanced while making money....you do know that LoL grosses far more $$$ than WoT?

Capture.JPG

Edited by Adm_Kunkka

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1 hour ago, LordTyphoon said:

 

You accuse me of ignorance and then you post this - lol. In big fat capital letters as well. 

 

You have no idea how the world works. Please go figure, then come back. 

 

You actually expect the game to be free to win? You expect WarGaming to have a business model with a revenue model of $0, yet employ highly skilled developers and modellers of all sorts to make this game for you?

 

Anyway, you sound like you really resent the game. Why do you even play the game if its so flawed and the developers are very clearly screwing over players like you? What are you doing on this forum? 

 

I don't know about you - if I love and/or am passionate about something, I would want to do my part. Therefore, I'm happy to contribute to WarGaming to making a game I love. In return, WarGaming gives me some fun ships to play. 

 

Whether you like it or not, everything in this world is a transaction. You give and you take. You are seriously mistaken if you genuinely believe WG would make you a truly free-to-play game. 

 

I think your logic is wrong

 

after reading your words, you seems to believe that

WoWS is a business and WG needs to earn money, so giving paid players advantages has no problem, it's just a part of the business

 

According to such logic, it's fine for every game to be PayToWin

which is generally considered as bad for any game

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Why PayToWin hurts the game?

even if you think you should pay to support the company, most people won't spend/ spend only a little money on the game

that is a natural phenomenon

PayToWin will make the players who don't play dissatisfied

then it is good?NO

cuz it will bring 2 problems

a. some players rage quit

         consequence: reducing in player base, and lacking of player makes the game bored

b. some players pay and join the superiors

        consequence: everybody plays the OP ships, thus harms the diversity of the game and makes the game odd

As a result, PayToWin is harmful to a game (not just harmful to player who don't play, but also WG)

 

2. Is the current premium ships OP?

LordTyphoon you mentioned some of the down sides of the so called OP ships

but every single ship has pros and cons, having cons doesn't mean one ship is not OP

we should look at the overall performance and compare it to their counterparts

 

** Here I'll use some stats as evidence, as statistics can show the real performance of one ship without taking player skill into account

Why it eliminates the factor of player skill?? Because of the huge number of records, which includes roughly the same number of good players and bad players.

Also note that player base of premium ships is not mainly consist of experts, many premium players didn't grind but pay, which means they generally have lower skill **

 

a. Belfast

Belfast is similar to the Fiji, but Belfast gets HE

anyone who played UK CL knows that having no HE is a big disadvantage for them

so it means Belfast(premium t7 UK CL) has obvious advantage against the free tier 7 UK CL

but that's just a theory, so now look at the statistics

https://imgur.com/tD3dRDk

( sorry the forum didn't let me post the image here )

Belfast is the most popular t7 CA/CL, but she's a premium ship, problem mentioned in 1b already took place

Belfast is the top in win rate, average damage, exp, K/D, ship kill, surival %, main battery hit ratio

Belfast almost wins in every aspect, isn't that already an solid prove of PayToWin??

 

b. Saipan

Belfast is not an exceptional case, there's more

Saipan is a good example

she is tier 7, but she has tier 9 fighters, which is superior to their counterparts in HP, damage, speed

only thing that can stop her fighter is dogfight expert ( a captain skill )

but recently patch let her escape from any dogfight without any cost ( while the others have to lost 1 plane as cost )

Moreover, Saipan has very strong DB squadrons

so currently none of the tier 7 CV(except Saipan itself) can stand against Saipan

Only theory right? So it's time to support it with stats

https://imgur.com/Icp0dDU

(can't post the image again)

Saipan is top in win rate(this time it exceeds 60%, even noobs should notice a serious problem here), average exp, K/D, plane kill(which shows Saipan's superiority against other CV), survival %

Also note that the top average damage in tier 7 is conquered by another premium CV, Kaga

Here we can obviously see how OP the premium ships are

 

3. How do WG earn money without making WoWS PayToWin?

Simple,

WG has long adopted the policy of PayToProgress

which means paying makes us easier to progress(eg.retrain captain, port space, free exp)

that is the correct way to earn money

it doesn't harm the game balance, and has been adopted for long time without having any problem

but for some reason WG has get off track recently

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In conclusion,

WG is now making WoWS more and more a PayToWin game

This will generate a lot of money for WG but that makes the game unsustainable

If it continues, this game will gradually fall (WT will be happy then)

WG should take measures as soon as possible to reduce and ultimately eliminate the in-match advantage of premium players

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5 hours ago, U12D13 said:

Harekaze - IJN DD that has USN quick-turning fast-firing guns on its 3rd hull type. And a possible detection range of only 5.4km by sea. Best of both worlds. 

 

Just putting it out there 

5.4 km is the result of adding commander skill and concealment mod,which can also be applied to Kagero

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1 minute ago, Kim_JongMion said:

5.4 km is the result of adding commander skill and concealment mod,which can also be applied to Kagero

but kagero dont get to gun down other T8 DDs, harekaze outspots all other tech tree DDs by quite a bit and when the harekaze you are fighting knows how to use both his concealment AND his guns it's quite annoying

Edited by drakon233

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hummmm so what OP is saying is, it's ok for WG to put unbalanced prem ships into the game because they need the extra cash to survive as a company, im sorry but that logic is inherently flawed, and even if that was the case, then it's better to just WOWS just die quietly since if the company behind it has had to resort to such underhand tactics to gain a profit then they must be doing something REALLY wrong

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https://youtu.be/WXA559KNopI?list=PLhyKYa0YJ_5BF-cMaj6gIe-7uD5rZG9ur
Here's a video by Actual game developers regarding the F2P model. Many people would know Extra Credits from the Hunt for Bismarck series they did for WG, so you know this isnt some random player/amatuer's opinion about the topic. So maybe if you guys are getting tired of walls of text and vague insults I recommend you watch this video and understand my stance on this whole "f2p has to be p2w" argument

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Look everyone, 

 

I was trying to present my own point of view here. And the point of view I have been trying to present has been so twisted by everybody who has piled on I think it is pointless for me to post here anymore. 

27 minutes ago, drakon233 said:

hummmm so what OP is saying is, it's ok for WG to put unbalanced prem ships into the game because they need the extra cash to survive as a company, im sorry but that logic is inherently flawed, and even if that was the case, then it's better to just WOWS just die quietly since if the company behind it has had to resort to such underhand tactics to gain a profit then they must be doing something REALLY wrong

 

I did not for one second suggest this. My original post was predicated on the fact that premium ships were not OP, as I believed, from I own experience from playing them. 

 

My overall point that has completely fallen on deaf ears was that I'd be happy to pay to play this game, and on a positive side enjoy some fun ships (which are not OP). 

 

5 hours ago, Adm_Kunkka said:

Wow that looks like a steaming pile of idk what. 

 

This was the disrespect that I believe turned this forum thread into a very toxic argument, after which you proceeded to criticise me for disrespecting you in return. I hope you will be enough of a man to recognise that nobody on this forum as well as their posts deserves to be spoken to like this, and likewise on my end. 

 

46 minutes ago, CarbonMonoxide said:

I think your logic is wrong

 

after reading your words, you seems to believe that

WoWS is a business and WG needs to earn money, so giving paid players advantages has no problem, it's just a part of the business

 

According to such logic, it's fine for every game to be PayToWin

which is generally considered as bad for any game

---

 

You make some good points and thank you for the detailed stats that you put up. This is interesting reading and I will have a look myself. 

 

I would like to point out that Belfast and Saipan are like you said, 'universally regarded OP ships'. How about other premiums? I dont believe any other premiums have the same 'OP status' as these two. Maybe Kutuzov and Missouri (latter which is semi-premium can be optained via grinding, which I did myself as I did not convert a single of the 750,000 XP cost), but other than these two, so I will have a look at the stats of these ships as well. 

 

Also:

6 hours ago, drakon233 said:

you are wrong about one thing, if you run hydro+accel mod on the MK you are so agile that you will almost never eat torps in smoke

 

27 minutes ago, drakon233 said:

hummmm so what OP is saying is, it's ok for WG to put unbalanced prem ships into the game because they need the extra cash to survive as a company, im sorry but that logic is inherently flawed, and even if that was the case, then it's better to just WOWS just die quietly since if the company behind it has had to resort to such underhand tactics to gain a profit then they must be doing something REALLY wrong

Dude stop contradicting yourself. 

 

I will say no more. 

Edited by LordTyphoon

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6 hours ago, LordTyphoon said:

 

(And you free-to-play players will still get to play this game which is pretty much funded by us ‘Pay2Win’ customers. So we’re paying for your entertainment and enjoyment. That is technically free-loading – but I will leave it at that.)

This was the first indirect disrespect in this whole thread, you were the one who started any ugliness in this discussion. My 'disrespect' was just as vague as yours so no, I do believe a post like this deserves the hate it generates

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5 hours ago, LordTyphoon said:

An of course, obviously if players contribute something they should get a reward for it. For example, like extra Xp per match, extra credits = F2P, and ‘OP’ ships = P2W

 

 

This comment from the OP sums up this whole argument.

I'm sorry but there is no sugar coating this, WG introduces ships that it and the players know are OP but cannot nerf them as people have paid money for them thus creating a P2W factor into the game. 

 

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1 hour ago, drakon233 said:

hummmm so what OP is saying is, it's ok for WG to put unbalanced prem ships into the game because they need the extra cash to survive as a company, im sorry but that logic is inherently flawed, and even if that was the case, then it's better to just WOWS just die quietly since if the company behind it has had to resort to such underhand tactics to gain a profit then they must be doing something REALLY wrong

This post really doesn't make any sense to me...

somehow I don't think any of the premiums are really that unbalanced, because if they were, they would be removed from the game completely (kitikami)

if people whinged enough, the ships would be removed from sale but not removed from game (Nikolai, gremyachy, kamikaze) , so I don't see ANY of the ships except for the kitikami, as being really OP, as they all have quite easy counters.... & to say that WG is being underhanded in making money on premium ships & other premium goodies is wrong, also wrong is that WG is putting in unbalanced premium ships just to make a quick buck....  Each ship would have to go through rigorous testing before it gets released.... Do the chances of a ship being really OP is a flawed view..... It ( the ship) happens to be in a hand of a really good player that happens to sink you... & I get sunk all the time, in premiums & regulars...... If the ships were bad, they would be removed....

as for underhanded tactics... I haven't seen any, I don't have to buy prems if i don't want to, & the game really is a free to win game.... How many big games are out there that are free? Normally you would buy it in a shop anyway...... , or the games force you to join a server & make you pay that way...  & if you buy someones old game they don't want, you cant pkay it because its got a unique key for that disk.., & you can't play it..Even if you own that disk... Ie. Steam.... Thats really underhanded....

WG doesn't do that...

& if the company was dying, why are we all still here?

Ordrazz

Edited by Ordrazz

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1 hour ago, LordTyphoon said:

WOW. I did not say that!!!!! Why am I being so heavily misunderstood?!?!

Apologies if it was a misunderstanding, but that was the gist of what I (and several others it seems) took home from your post. You said WG needs to sell Premium ships to make money, and then spent the majority of your post defending the arguably overpowered ships like Belfast and Saipan. So it is unsurprising readers interpret it as you saying that WG needs to sell overpowered ships to feed the employees.

And then you say things like this:

 

3 hours ago, LordTyphoon said:

You actually expect the game to be free to win? You expect WarGaming to have a business model with a revenue model of $0, yet employ highly skilled developers and modellers of all sorts to make this game for you?

 

Whether you like it or not, everything in this world is a transaction. You give and you take. You are seriously mistaken if you genuinely believe WG would make you a truly free-to-play game. 

 

Which only makes it look like you are justifying p2w even more.

 

And WG does have a business model. They call it a "Pay to Progress" model, where players pay money to ease their grinding. This is done by both Premium time and Premium ships for greater xp/credit gains and captain retraining. Premium ships are only part of their business model. I don't think many people are complaining about their Pay to Progress model (though if you watched the Sliphantom video, he does make a case that even Pay to Progress is slightly p2w).

 

When people complain about the Belfast or Saipan being overpowered, it has nothing to do with the fact that they are Premium and thus they earn more credits or xp or can train captains faster. It is that they are overpowered, as simple as that. This, coupled with the fact that WG are extremely unwilling to nerf Premium ships, is where the majority of the p2w Premium ships.

 

TL;DR

People are not complaining that Premium ships are p2w. People are complaining that overpowered Premium ships are p2w. The problem with your argument is that you are lumping all Premium ships together, when not all Premiums are created equal.

Edited by Thyaliad

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7 hours ago, LordTyphoon said:

 

(And you free-to-play players will still get to play this game which is pretty much funded by us ‘Pay2Win’ customers. So we’re paying for your entertainment and enjoyment. That is technically free-loading – but I will leave it at that.)

Spoiler

06e.jpg.9fc536bcea56a931c5dd9c15cdd8014a.jpg

 

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OP, you do get for paying. You get to play the ships themselves that others don't have access to. That should be enough. But now you want the ships to be over performing with many features that standard ships of same tier does not get, that is just supporting p2w powercreep in a f2p model. No f2p model that included p2w survived and the devs know that. That was the reason that Gremy and Nikolai were removed from the shop because WG realized the potential damage it could do in the long run. I see your point that playing Saipan and Belfast still require skills. But there is no denying the fact that, they have tools that the ships of same nation or class could have had. HE for RNCL for example. Pay 2 win is sort of a vague term to identify overpowered ships in this game. Look at how many games have already been played in belfast even though she is one of the newest Tier 7 ships. Why did so many people buy Belfast? There are lots of other ships to buy.

 

When you spend $ in a F2P game, you do it with a hope to supporting the devs, not because you may be able to get unfair advantage over others. But I guess to each to their own. As we have seen in the recent Q&A section, someone was asking for adding p2w features cause he was ready to pay.

Edited by icy_phoenix

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My semi-shiptost here;

 

Once upon a time, a premium ship were released so that people could earn extra credits than tech tree ships, and could re-train the captains without the crippling penalty that comes when not paying doubloons.

Little, by little, people began complaining how uninspiring premiums in terms of in-game performance are so WG began reworking those ships to be attractive performance-wise as well.

Before we know it, the premium ships are not only good at earning income and training captains, but also (largely) performing better than its tech tree brethen. The powercreep continues unabated.

Now calling out for those who realized the original purpose of premium ships once were.....

 

... but nobody came.

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Wait till you see the buffed Makarov aka. Nurnberg clone that can fire the 2 rear guns through the front bridge....

WG logic at its finest

n26hyGx.jpg

0.6.7

Spoiler

tWiYehY.jpg

0.6.8

 

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the more I play, the more my head getting hotter and hotter

instead of playing a WoWs to let off some steam, now I have to stop playing WoWs to let off some steam.

 

 

it's personnel yes, I know, but that's that =w='a

so... I'll keep paying them as minimum as possible.

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It has been a while since I have seen such a nicely formatted post from an op, I congratulate you and fascinating as well, I never really thought of the game and premiums from that perspective and don't worry about other people's view if it is non constructive in the way they are addressing mistakes or voicing their opinions and just ignore them:cap_old:

5 hours ago, drakon233 said:

pay to loseshot-17_07.02_23_50.26-0517.thumb.jpg.6801777880042d56d93144ee7ad7e109.jpg

They must be the elite harekaze warriors taking on all of the anti-weaboos:cap_rambo:

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30 minutes ago, Adm_Kunkka said:

Goddamit If you made that reference knowingly I applaud you for giving me some feels :cap_like:

 

I know right, there are some tech tree ships in such a state that we need to SAVE them. :etc_hide_turtle:

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2 hours ago, drakon233 said:

but kagero dont get to gun down other T8 DDs, harekaze outspots all other tech tree DDs by quite a bit and when the harekaze you are fighting knows how to use both his concealment AND his guns it's quite annoying

yeah,Akizuki's 100mm gun......

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6 minutes ago, Admiral_Neptulussus said:

I know right, there are some tech tree ships in such a state that we need to SAVE them. :etc_hide_turtle:

stahp I cant handle more feels!!! :Smile_sad:

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