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Should we introduce "spalling damge" for HE shells?

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[LLBC]
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Currently, the high explosive shells would penetrate the target with roughly 1/6 (or 1/4, in some of the German shells) of the diameter as the penetration value. If the conditions are met, the shell will always do 1/3 of the listed damage, or the full listed damage if it penetrates the citadel. Failing that and the shell will not do any damage to the target at all (except starting fires). The penetration values can be raised by 30% with the IFHE commander skill.

 

Now, the current issue is that the damge is dealth in the all-or-nothing fashion as described above, and that is the dividing line between "not doing consistent damge and need to rely on fires" and "insane HE alpha per salvo". Apparently, the 152 mm high-explosive shells are affected the most since they cannot deal consistent damage to 25 mm or above out of the gate due to not having sufficient penetration value. However, with IFHE, those shells can deal consistent damage to even most high-tier battleships with 32 mm platings. This boils down to the fact that there are many ships are too dependent on IFHE to be effective damage dealer (at least, when it comes to melting battleships).

 

So, to mitigate the overdependence on IFHE to deal consistent damage, I suggest that there should be the second threshold where the HE shells can still deal damage, albeit much less against the armor they would otherwise fail do do any. My suggestions are the following: If the armor is at 1/3 (or 1/2 for some German shells) the diameter of the impacting shell, the shell would deal 1/12th of the listed damage as "light" damage. The shells should never cause citadel hits it would not under the old thresholds.

 

Your thoughts?

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[MEGA]
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WG dont want to make the game harder to understand, they have to balance for the "less skilled playerbase" and they wont understand mechanics like this and unicums would prob find some way to abuse the hell out of ot

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Super Tester
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Current?

 

HE shells and bombs have a splash radius that damages modules but not the HP of the ship itself. You can already see this with larger HE shells/bombs that have near-missed a DD but still detonate it.

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Alpha Tester
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HE shells and bombs have a splash radius that damages modules but not the HP of the ship itself. You can already see this with larger HE shells/bombs that have near-missed a DD but still detonate it.

 

I see

 

That was why i lost 2 turret on my Atago despite did not get hit (Yamato Shells)

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Senior Moderator
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Spalling damage for AP and HE was what we had in Alpha, and ditched in favour to improve clarity of damage mechanics for the players.

 

Doubt it will ever make a return.

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[MEGA]
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HE shells and bombs have a splash radius that damages modules but not the HP of the ship itself. You can already see this with larger HE shells/bombs that have near-missed a DD but still detonate it.

 

dont bloody remind me

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Member
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Spalling damage for AP and HE was what we had in Alpha, and ditched in favour to improve clarity of damage mechanics for the players.

 

Doubt it will ever make a return.

 

I thought they called it Kinetic damage in alpha ?

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[LNA]
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The game's learning curve is pretty high already and plenty dont understand anything about it at all are still wagging around in tier X mind you.

On average it takes one with a decent brain with decent English to learn from Wiki will takes 2-3 months for the basics and 6-12 months to fully understand and able to utilize them. To master them will takes a long time though , almost like a job hummm...

Thing is overcomplication or oversimplification is not healthy for a game , and they will have to tread a thin wire for that.

WG's product largest fault lies in the large number of mechanics that players have to learn and many of them are not clarified and are unclear many of the times with devs maybe given some answers here or there but w/o in game example it is hard to relate to. Not to mention how these mechanics interact with each other and the byproducts allmost to the level of a subject like class physics.

I have Air Traffic Control background, so physics are nothing new , but think about it , most who play this game i understand are students and worksman with different educations that may have little to do with this kind of physics.

To understand better : You need to know : Basic of aerodynamics , Interaction of Fluid dynamics , Wind-Windshear-Updraft-Downdraft ( There is a lot about them just so you know ) , Ballistic, Material Physics ( the learning of how materials interact and development of them), ... the list go on

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[LNA]
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Why would you need to know all that physics to play wows? This isnt a simulation with perfect physics and all you might need to k ow is simple shell trajectory

 

Knowing all the workings behind the scene let you what is and what is not possible , it also let you appreciate and judge for yourself what physic is needed and what is not.

If you are clueless and only know simple shell trajectory you will have a hard time understanding why you sometimes get wierd pen and why sometimes your shots should have citalled or pen when it overpen.

Trajectory is only one part of the equation , It hit the target , it need to pen it and it need to pen it at the right place.

There is no wind effect here in game , but aerodynamics and other physics help you establish why and make an educated guess on how the shell move or where it will land approximately w/o having to waste hundreds of shells or battles to get used to it by feelings. It help you appreciate on how exactly the armor scheme work in or against your favor so you pick the best angle , aim for the best place or place yourself where the known weakspots are the hardest to hit.

Many here say that turtle back armor save you from cit pen and the random guy will believe it so w/o bothering to go into details. Then he go into the game do some dumb things get cit or eat heavy damage from broadside habits. Or he doesnt know how to use special armor features like those of Izumos or Lolorado

I know a lot of the physics was not implemented here or simplified for gameplay. Realistically , a BB HE shell will blow off a DD bridge with little trouble and a near miss can very well juggle it like a ball.

There is also the stun effect and impact strength of a large shell that will incapacitate a good portion of the crew if it made it inside the ship lowering combat efficiency. Now those if emulated in game will make BB even more OP than ever

Also , if i am not wrong the water current here do not affect the game , there is no rough tide , no warm and cold draft and also sort of stuffs that can make shots go haywire and torpedoes go slower than it should be.

 

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Beta Tester
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Tbh, WOWs has dumbed down a lot when compared to WOT

 

In here, HE either pens, citadels or doesn't pen at all. In WOT, HE might not pen, but still deal damage due to spalling of the armor or something similar. 

 

A few mechanics WOWs has that makes it slightly more complex is the torpedoes which makes area denial possible, the ability for CV to scout with their planes, mitigating camping.

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Member
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When you play this game, I would assume it would be for fun, sure if you have background knowledge and can predict the trajectories and factors that effect the style of play and meta and trajectories and prediction of ships and psychological knowledge, that is really good and I applaud you but you would not want to have to learn all that stuff to play a game. If this were a simulator where you re-enact military battles in co-op with other players then yes I would assume you would try to learn these formulas and all but to introduce these complexions to the game in uncalled for and IMHO I do not think this is necessary and this is the reason that WG removed "splash" damage in the first place.

A couple of thought and "facts" posted by a random kid still in high school, don't judge me!

Regards Elmo

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[LNA]
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3 hours ago, ellofiend said:

When you play this game, I would assume it would be for fun, sure if you have background knowledge and can predict the trajectories and factors that effect the style of play and meta and trajectories and prediction of ships and psychological knowledge, that is really good and I applaud you but you would not want to have to learn all that stuff to play a game. If this were a simulator where you re-enact military battles in co-op with other players then yes I would assume you would try to learn these formulas and all but to introduce these complexions to the game in uncalled for and IMHO I do not think this is necessary and this is the reason that WG removed "splash" damage in the first place.

A couple of thought and "facts" posted by a random kid still in high school, don't judge me!

Regards Elmo

Playing for fun is worthy of commendation , nothing wrong with it really.

However , since i am pissed off at losing so much , i learn the game so i can better moderate myself and give myself a better chance of earning sastifaction , also , if you want to be happy at tier 8+ you seriously have to spend time fashioning up knowledge about mechanics , it can be very very frustrating and sometimes ridiculous at those tiers.

 

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[LLBC]
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I am going to add my opinion on the complexity issues here. It is all back to the user interface issue, again, not being informative enough for the players so they are forced to spend time to look elsewhere. Case in point, they could have let the players know in-game about how much penetration each high explosive shell is capable of doing.

 

mouseover.PNG.5738d6bdc989f2af56301a6d45106b39.PNG

 

As for my idea, I could add that information on the mouseover currently in the game as above.

 

 For example, 152 mm shell:

  • Can penetrate and deal damage armor up to 24 mm of thickness
  • Can deal spalling damage to armor up to 50 mm of thickness (if this is going to be re-implemented)

I believe that it will not take too much for the new players to process on how much penetration this HE shell is going to have (particularly on the Germans, which have non-standard values), or to catch on why is "spalling" damage doing here on the description. At least it would encourage them to look upon wiki or ask somebody else about it.

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16 hours ago, legionary2099 said:

Playing for fun is worthy of commendation , nothing wrong with it really.

However , since i am pissed off at losing so much , i learn the game so i can better moderate myself and give myself a better chance of earning sastifaction , also , if you want to be happy at tier 8+ you seriously have to spend time fashioning up knowledge about mechanics , it can be very very frustrating and sometimes ridiculous at those tiers.

I absolutely agree with you and I strive to understand the ballistics and stuff but my maths is below average (ask my maths teacher ---> :cap_old:)

Happiness above tier 8 is a rare commodity unless you are in a match where the enemy team is full of idiots (not rare, but idiots on own is side is not rare either, (and yes I am acutely aware I fall into that demographic) although I do want to improve!, look at my stats below :Smile_Default:

Edited by ellofiend

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