Jump to content
You need to play a total of 10 battles to post in this section.
Bunnios

Skill-based Matchmaking for CVs

76 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Member
97 posts
13,753 battles

WG have stated they will not implement skill-based matchmaking generally but I think they need to make an exception for CVs. No other ship-class can make the result of a battle a foregone conclusion when CV players are horribly imbalanced. For example:

 

 

Last night I had the same CV (Shokaku) player in my team in 3 consecutive games. The other team's CV had at least double the stats of our CV. Clearly the player has no idea how to play CV and has no real intention (or potential) of improving. All 3 games were a complete loss from the start. In the last game, he was sunk in the first 3 mins. In the other games he did practically no damage and flew his planes over Minotaurs and Des Moines.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
358 posts
7,415 battles
Skill based MM just for CV could lead to a wait time of hours especially for a skilled player, in which case you would still potentially see the same potato player in successive matches flying their planes over Minotaur and Des Moines. Meanwhile the truly skilled CV player would be sitting in a special queue for the exceptional. Sounds fair to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
97 posts
13,753 battles

Skill based MM just for CV could lead to a wait time of hours especially for a skilled player,

 

I don't have stats but do you know what the statistical breakdown is for CV players' skill on SEA (or any server)? If not, why do you believe there would be ludicrously uneven numbers of skilled vs unskilled CVs? I'm also not talking a black/white split, that would be dumb. There would be a scale of skill of course, just like in any decent matchmaking system. The point is, some attempt at skill-based matchmaking would be appreciated since I'm tired of having consecutive games with the same WTR 200 CV player while the opposing team's is WTR 1200+. WG should be actively making an effort to make this game more enjoyable, not more frustrating.

Edited by Bunnios

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
358 posts
7,415 battles

Past experience is what I'm basing my belief on. Whilst I don't have a statistical breakdown of skill level I have been playing WOT & WOWS now for years and I do have an idea that the server overall average WR is 49% which means that the average WR for CV is going to reflect the overall WR. Which means that high skilled players are going to be become less scarce the higher the WR gets so scaling will make no difference, the highly skilled will be left in a queue waiting to find another equally skilled CV player to become available in the battle queue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
97 posts
13,753 battles

I didn't say the matchmaker should *never* match unequal CVs, but it should at least *try* within a reasonable time-limit. It is a miserable game for one whole team when they are horribly imbalanced.

Here is the my most recent experience (finished 5 mins ago):

 

 

Also, people tend to methodically fail their way to higher tiers. The CV on my team above is a classic example of this. 36% WR in a Hiryu and yet continues to *mainly* play CV

 

Edited by Bunnios

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
97 posts
13,753 battles

Yet again, another CV player with no idea. I'm getting at least one of these games every day. Coming dead last in a Saipan should be indication enough that perhaps one should stop playing CVs in PvP as you are just ruining the game for your team. Of course, if WG added skill-based matchmaking for CVs, we wouldn't suffer this garbage every day.

[content removed]

Naming and shaming. Post edited, user warned.

Do not remove mod's red text!

~amade

 

Edited by amade

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
97 posts
13,753 battles

Here is a reddit post on my recent experiences with ridiculously unbalanced CVs: 

 

 

This was the worst today: Two Taihos. Our CV: 0% WR, 30K average damage. Their CV: 75% WR, 100K average damage. Guess how it turned out? Their CV on top.

 

j7WCc24.png

 

 

Two games in a row with the same Taiho. Guess how it turned out?

 

2FRA17z.jpg

Edited by Bunnios

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
97 posts
13,753 battles

Today's edition features a 37% WR, 31K dmg, 550 WTR Shokaku who drives straight to the little island at B on Haven and gets deleted by the enemy Tirpitz inside 3 minutes. This player has 950+ games in CVs.

Edited by Bunnios

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
6,604 posts
2,477 battles
11 minutes ago, Bunnios said:

Today's edition features a 37% WR, 31K dmg, 550 WTR Shokaku who drives straight to the little island at B on Haven and gets deleted by the enemy Tirpitz inside 3 minutes. This player has 950+ games in CVs.

 

So?

He is obviously using bot to grind up to tier 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
97 posts
13,753 battles
57 minutes ago, Harpoon01 said:

He is obviously using bot to grind up to tier 8

 

He's not a bot. The whole point is that without skill-based matchmaking you get these useless CVs who should be in co-op not randoms or not playing CV at all

WG should make a CV only game mode where just CVs with certain stats get to battle each other.

Edited by Bunnios

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
97 posts
13,753 battles

Today's stupid CV matchmaking which DESTROYS ANY ENJOYMENT for this game: 

 

Our Enterprise: 200 games total in CVs. Terrible in anything above T4/5, even Saipan. Has played 1 game in Enterprise for 15K dmg.

Enemy Enterprise: Unicum CV player with over 3500 games in CVs all the way up to T10 and is Unicum or better in all of them.

 

Enemy CV sinks SEVEN (7) ships and shoots down 57 planes.

 

Our CV sinks ZERO (0) ships and shoots down 23 planes. Our CV spends the first 5 mins keeping all planes in one corner of map. Can't even sink an AFK Tirpitz.

 

We asked NC/Baltimore/New Orleans for AA cover but they ignore it and all go off together to one cap at the other end of the map.

 

Seriously, WG, get a clue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
97 posts
13,753 battles

a) Saipans should only be matched against other Saipans, or b) team with Saipan gets *all* the worst players on their team.

 

http://imgur.com/7GoRT0i

 

Also, T5 should get +1,-1 MM

Edited by Bunnios

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
97 posts
13,753 battles

Another loss. 7 straight today thanks to completely one-sided matchmaking.

MM gives their team 2 unicum divisions with 70% WR CV

My team gets 2 fail divisions and a 36% WR CV

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
97 posts
13,753 battles

Another loss. 8 straight for today. 

Our CV: 33 % WR, 500 WTR Shokaku (overall 600 WTR player in 3000 games)

Their CV: Pay-to-Win Enterprise, 1st game, but decent in other CVs. (1000 WTR player over 2000 games)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
435 posts
6,169 battles

You’re quoting other players stats, why not unlock your stats? Some of us more experienced players might be able to see what you’re doing wrong and offer remedies, aid or even some whip-ass .

But there must be something wrong if you losing so many games with CVs because most of us don’t loose so much!

I was thinking of suggesting AA builds if you don’t like CVs but I have no idea of what class of ships you’re playing or what stat levels you’re at, AA builds don’t work for every ship.

WG will never split the playerbase with skill base MM, War Thunder made that mistake.

Edited by BuckleUpBones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
97 posts
13,753 battles

If you think a player's individual stats (except for when they are playing CVs) has any relevance to this problem than I think you really don't get it and after your 5000+ battles I find that surprising.

Do you really think that having a 70+%WR CV player (especially in a Saipan/Kaga/Enterprise) versus someone who has a ~30% WR winrate (or less) is irrelevant?

Since WG doesn't balance ship capabilities, or allow you to modify loadouts per game, there is often not much you can do in a game. Your team only has IJN cruisers? Bad luck. Their team has 4 Des Moines/Neptunes and your team has none? Bad luck. Their team has a Super Unicum CV player and your CV bought their Kaga yesterday? Bad luck. Since CVs seem to be really popular in SEA (maybe Asian players like that play style more than other regions?) the number of incompetent CVs is correspondingly large. Even in games where you think, oh great, at least we have a Kutuzov, that player can be so useless that they drive straight from spawn into cap and die within minutes (that happened to me in a game just yesterday - that player has 12K average damage in one of the most OP ships in the game).

I understand skill-based matchmaking is more challenging for a game like this, but it is *not* impossible and I find it discouraging that WG will not even make an attempt at it. Remember the days when there was practically no tier balancing or ship type balancing? How long did it take before they changed that? Was it better before or after that change? How can it be detrimental to have some skill-based MM? How come some of the most popular games in the world have skill based match-making? What if the chess world did not have the ELO system? How much better would that be? The *only* argument I have ever heard from anybody is that there are not enough players. I have read and understood the papers on Microsoft's TrueSkill system. Unfortunately I cannot find definitive answers for scale of the player population for which it becomes practicable.

 

P.S. I also have thousands of games games up to T10 so my experience is not an issue. I have had 100% WR days with unicum stats. I have had 25% WR days. On the *worst* days, it is usually because the MM is horribly unbalanced, more often than not because of the CVs. I don't "loose" so much. BTW, how would you "more experienced" players (how patronising and irrelevant) see what I am doing wrong simply from my stats?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
435 posts
6,169 battles
2 hours ago, Bunnios said:

If you think a player's individual stats (except for when they are playing CVs) has any relevance to this problem than I think you really don't get it and after your 5000+ battles I find that surprising.

Do you really think that having a 70+%WR CV player (especially in a Saipan/Kaga/Enterprise) versus someone who has a ~30% WR winrate (or less) is irrelevant?

Since WG doesn't balance ship capabilities, or allow you to modify loadouts per game, there is often not much you can do in a game. Your team only has IJN cruisers? Bad luck. Their team has 4 Des Moines/Neptunes and your team has none? Bad luck. Their team has a Super Unicum CV player and your CV bought their Kaga yesterday? Bad luck. Since CVs seem to be really popular in SEA (maybe Asian players like that play style more than other regions?) the number of incompetent CVs is correspondingly large. Even in games where you think, oh great, at least we have a Kutuzov, that player can be so useless that they drive straight from spawn into cap and die within minutes (that happened to me in a game just yesterday - that player has 12K average damage in one of the most OP ships in the game).

I understand skill-based matchmaking is more challenging for a game like this, but it is *not* impossible and I find it discouraging that WG will not even make an attempt at it. Remember the days when there was practically no tier balancing or ship type balancing? How long did it take before they changed that? Was it better before or after that change? How can it be detrimental to have some skill-based MM? How come some of the most popular games in the world have skill based match-making? What if the chess world did not have the ELO system? How much better would that be? The *only* argument I have ever heard from anybody is that there are not enough players. I have read and understood the papers on Microsoft's TrueSkill system. Unfortunately I cannot find definitive answers for scale of the player population for which it becomes practicable.

 

P.S. I also have thousands of games games up to T10 so my experience is not an issue. I have had 100% WR days with unicum stats. I have had 25% WR days. On the *worst* days, it is usually because the MM is horribly unbalanced, more often than not because of the CVs. I don't "loose" so much. BTW, how would you "more experienced" players (how patronising and irrelevant) see what I am doing wrong simply from my stats?

Its preposterous to grilling another player stats when no one can return the grilling (if we could that is).

 

Oh goody goody, you’ve played a few thousands games, so you should have:

Empathy. How can you knock any player for their low skilled ability’s, they have every right to join the game and press “Battle”, even buy premiums, even play with the rest of us. If you put yourself in their shoes, then WR is irrelevant .

Fairness.  So many players want to change the rules to suit themselves, especially unicom’s, your thread ricks of this, it’s not a suggestion it’s a rant. Gameplay is for everybody, good or bad.

Realization. If there one single strait WG has been consistent on is it's "Revenue", P2W is as solid as a rock. So is newbies donating millions of credits to WG because they think by buying the top of the range ships it will win those games or at least but them happiness or something like that and that inexperience will always be in your games. Premiums CVs abilities are here to stay and on this case it’s a matter of “If you can’t beat them, join them!”

Bad Luck. It’s a game of chance, sometime you win some and sometime you lose some, bad luck comes with the variety of 12v12 human randomness.  There will never be any magical algorithm to mitigate human behavior or on the day bad choices, so best to rejoice all the good luck and be done with that, or upskill to unicom! or upskill to a better unicom, I don’t know what you are, dam! can’t even see if I’m messing with a unicum player.

 

On topic, I disagree with your opinion, ah"suggestion", since CAs and CLs teamwork will always beat the best of CVs players and most of all, you still get 50% games where the good CV player is on your side. Long term the good and bad averages should balance out. And compared with game released MM, nowadays its doing a pretty good job.

Edited by BuckleUpBones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Video Contributor
2,264 posts
10,789 battles
55 minutes ago, BuckleUpBones said:

 

Bad Luck. It’s a game of chance, sometime you win some and sometime you lose some, bad luck comes with the variety of 12v12 human randomness.  There will never be any magical algorithm to mitigate human behavior or on the day bad choices, so best to rejoice all the good luck and be done with that, or upskill to unicom! or upskill to a better unicom, I don’t know what you are, dam! can’t even see if I’m messing with a unicum player.

our division

Hakuryu+DM+memetaur

list our team

(1) Hakuryu

Yamato

GK

Izumo

NC

(1) DM

(1) memetaur

(2) Edin

AH

Shimakaze

Yugumo

(2) Benson

 

list enemy team

(1) Hakuryu

(1) Montana

(1) Montana

Iowa

NC

(2) DM

DM

Neptune

Mogami

(2) Gearing

Akizuki

Akizuki

 

map : Sea of (no)Fortune, Type : Domination

ps (number) is division

 

skill-base not enough how MM is broken or something

let's talk!
 

skill base is important same MM

high skill base+YOLO CV=MM troll

no skill base CV+you have luck=win

high skill CV+division-team potato=lose

high skill CV+YOLO+all BB=farm damage

high skill CV+division-enemy team have all AA boat=how???????

 

each people has

1.KC player

2.anime player who love to play only IJN

3.cannot change play style

4.potato is still potato and don't respect themselves 

5.unicum player who play everything really pro player (except V_R clan who are from Mars (CV_L_Ryujo said))

6.stimulus to play that line

7.WALLET WARRIOR WHO BUY SAIPAN/KAGA/BIG E/GZ AND #)(^$#*$*@_)^(@)^$@

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
97 posts
13,753 battles
4 hours ago, BuckleUpBones said:

Oh goody goody, you’ve played a few thousands games, so you should have:

...

On topic, I disagree with your opinion, ah"suggestion", since CAs and CLs teamwork will always beat the best of CVs players and most of all, you still get 50% games where the good CV player is on your side. Long term the good and bad averages should balance out. And compared with game released MM, nowadays its doing a pretty good job.

 

1. You suggested that you were a more experienced player and that I could learn from you. I told you I am just as experienced, now you are making snide comments about that?

2. Finally you post something on topic. Thanks. I can just ignore that other stuff you have written.

 

I wonder, before WG changed MM (ship types/tiers), were you happy with the game and saw no reason to change it? If not, why has your opinion changed? Do you honestly feel WG can do nothing more to improve the player experience, for *everyone*, whether they have good stats or not? I don't want to stop anyone playing the game. A larger player base is good for the game, as long as that larger player base is not to the detriment of the overall player experience.

 

After all, as so many point out, this is just a game. A game should, for the most part, be enjoyable, or, as WG puts it, "fun and engaging". I, for one, think more can be done to improve the player experience. But that's just me. You appear to be happy with whatever crumbs WG drops from the table. Why are you so willing to accept the status quo?

 

You improve the player experience, you have more people playing the game, you get more money.

 

I don't have anything against people wanting to play premium or any ships, but where is the enjoyment for that person, let alone the team, when that player has literally just bought the ship and brings it straight into PvP without having tried playing it in co-op? Why should a team be punished because a player has obviously made zero attempt to learn anything about how to play the game and obviously has no intention of improving. Are you one of those who think everyone should get a medal just for participating? Where is the enjoyment for any party (except for the opposing team) getting roflstomped? Would it not be better for that person to play against a CV of similar capabilities? Co-op mode exists for a reason, just as some of the most popular games ever (Halo, League of Legends, Overwatch to name a few) have skill-based matchmaking.

 

P.S. My thread doesn't "rick" of anything. It's an attempt to show WG that poor matchmaking, especially for CVs, is ruining the experience for many players.

Edited by Bunnios

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
6,604 posts
2,477 battles

At the end of the day, you are solely responsible for your success and your failure. And the sooner you realize that, you accept that, and integrate that into your work ethic, you will start being successful. As long as you blame others for the reason you aren't where you want to be, you will always be a failure.

it does not matter how good you are or how bad you are or how bad you teammate are

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
97 posts
13,753 battles
2 minutes ago, Harpoon01 said:

At the end of the day, you are solely responsible for your success and your failure. And the sooner you realize that, you accept that, and integrate that into your work ethic, you will start being successful. As long as you blame others for the reason you aren't where you want to be, you will always be a failure.

it does not matter how good you are or how bad you are or how bad you teammate are

 

WTF? Who's talking about work ethic? This is a game, and a team one at that.

Why is that no one gets the point of this, ever?

I don't care if I have a 50% WR and average stats. Some of the best games have been losses but still enjoyable, e.g. when it comes down to a nail-biter with only a few points between the teams. It is not a good game if it is a loss and the enemy CV has 7 kills, shot down 50 planes and in the end also kills the team CV (if it hasn't already sniped it in the first 3 mins of the game). I want a good game with team mates that are willing to make an effort. Have you ever played team games in real life? Would you be happy playing in a football team where the goalkeeper sits in the goal reading a book? Would you accept it and keep playing in a team just because the club owner says "well, that's just the way it is"? No, you'd go find a better team. That's why they have divisions in just about all real world games. Why does that not apply in the slightest to computer games?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
6,604 posts
2,477 battles

You have energy to check someone stats, report and write it down in the forum 

But no energy to shut up and git gud?

 

YOU TALK TO MUCH

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×